Was Gary Mitchell Originally the First Officer?

[J.T.B.]

Actually, one should note that Kirk sees no fault in Spock's doings here, nor is he defending Spock for providing unpleasant data since he has provided none - instead he's specifically chastising Dehner for not providing unpleasant data. So his words, not directly addressed to anybody in the semantic sense, should be taken in this context; they are addressed to Dehner in the logical sense.

Thus it's quite possible that Dehner is Kirk's science officer (one of the many, as the ship must have dozens) in this bit of dialogue, not Spock.

But the way the scene plays makes it pretty clear that Spock is the one referred to; immediately after mentioning the science officer and his duty, Kirk tells Spock to "Go ahead" and finish reporting his information.

The shooting script excerpted in TMoST also identifies Spock as science officer, though elsewhere in the same book it says Spock was second-in-command in WNMHGB.

I would say that Spock wearing the command badge in WNMHGB is pretty strong evidence that he was F/O, probably in the same "two hat" arrangement as in the rest of TOS. If only one other officer is seen wearing the same insignia as the CO, it's pretty hard to argue that it would be someone other than the second-in-command.

Perhaps the change in Spock's colors coincided with the changes in uniform that happened sometime soon after WNMHGB. Maybe the new regulations allowed more leeway in what division colors an officer could wear, so Spock took the blue option.

Doesn't the writer's guide say that Kirk commanded a ship analogous to a destroyer before he was put in command of the Enterprise?

That is what is stated in TMoST, page 215:

Kirk rose very rapidly through the rank and received his first command (the equivalent of a destroyer-class spaceship) while still quite young.​

--Justin

 

[Praetor]

Actually, one should note that Kirk sees no fault in Spock's doings here, nor is he defending Spock for providing unpleasant data since he has provided none - instead he's specifically chastising Dehner for not providing unpleasant data. So his words, not directly addressed to anybody in the semantic sense, should be taken in this context; they are addressed to Dehner in the logical sense.

Thus it's quite possible that Dehner is Kirk's science officer (one of the many, as the ship must have dozens) in this bit of dialogue, not Spock.

But the way the scene plays makes it pretty clear that Spock is the one referred to; immediately after mentioning the science officer and his duty, Kirk tells Spock to "Go ahead" and finish reporting his information.

The shooting script excerpted in TMoST also identifies Spock as science officer, though elsewhere in the same book it says Spock was second-in-command in WNMHGB.

I would say that Spock wearing the command badge in WNMHGB is pretty strong evidence that he was F/O, probably in the same "two hat" arrangement as in the rest of TOS. If only one other officer is seen wearing the same insignia as the CO, it's pretty hard to argue that it would be someone other than the second-in-command.

Perhaps the change in Spock's colors coincided with the changes in uniform that happened sometime soon after WNMHGB. Maybe the new regulations allowed more leeway in what division colors an officer could wear, so Spock took the blue option.

I tend to agree with J.T.B. I also think that Spock could, potentially, have chosen to wear gold for the duration of TOS if he wanted to, highlighting the uniqueness of Spock's situation. If Riker had another job on TNG, he might have been able to wear a different color too.

Doesn't the writer's guide say that Kirk commanded a ship analogous to a destroyer before he was put in command of the Enterprise?

That is what is stated in TMoST, page 215:

Kirk rose very rapidly through the rank and received his first command (the equivalent of a destroyer-class spaceship) while still quite young.​

--Justin

For my money, Kirk achieved that destroyer command as a Commander, and was only (probably) promoted to Captain when he took command the Enterprise. So, if you want to say that he had achieved a command faster than anyone else by that time, it could have been as a Commander on the Lydia Sutherland.

(Incidentally, who is Lydia Sutherland? Anyone important?)

So maybe Kirk asked for Mitchell when he commanded that ship, and wanted to carry him over to the Enterprise and make him his XO, only to have Spock forced on him.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

The Lydia Sutherland is a combination of the names of Horatio Hornblower's commands in Beat to Quarters (Lydia, a frigate) and A Ship of the Line (Sutherland).

Rey, pedantic (and ripping off Joe's schtick).

 

[J.T.B.]

The Lydia Sutherland is a combination of the names of Horatio Hornblower's commands in Beat to Quarters (Lydia, a frigate) and A Ship of the Line (Sutherland).

Combined for a terrible merchantman-sounding name, IMO.

--Justin

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I was somewhat off-put by it myself.

 

[Praetor]

Yeah, I didn't care for it either. I will therefore choose to believe it was really just called the Sutherland, especially since we already have a canon one of those. Her "official" name might "really" be Lydia Sutherland, perhaps in honor of Starfleet's first female admiral or something... but the hull probably says Sutherland.

 

[Timo]

...Or then the full name is indeed spelled out on the hull so that nobody would think the ship is named after any of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_(disambiguation)

Small, destroyer-type ships (although the LS might have been more than that) do tend to get names that are obscure enough to require clarification and explication. I'm not really opposed to Kirk's early command having an "ugly" or "uncool" or "inglorious" name...

Anybody remember James Winter's fanfic on this ship, which he considered simply USS Sutherland (NCC-1010, Los Angeles class, IIRC)?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Praetor]

Conceded on the "obscure names" point, but I still dislike the name.

I have not heard of that fanfic.

 

[Chaos Descending]

I got the impression from the original monolog that the Enterprise's duties up to that point mirrored those of the navy or coast guard... and that this mission of exploration was something of a change for them.

So the idea that you would have a first officer acting as the lead science officer to coordinate ships resources for the science divisions on board seems logical. And the change in crew size might have been a result of the change in the defined mission of the ship. In Pike's time the Enterprise may have mainly patrolled space around the colony and Federation systems, so the first officer was more about keeping the ship as a whole functioning properly.

looking at the pilots (including things that were dropped from them) gives us some great What If scenarios to play with.

Amusing that Takei and Doohan are not credited as "Sulu" or "Scott" but as "Chief Physicist" and "Engineering Chief".

 

[Praetor]

I guess a knowledge of physics would be valuable for a ship's helmsman. Maybe Sulu got sick of being in the lab and asked for a transfer?

 

[Timo]

Or perhaps Sciences is something everybody can handle without training, what with having been infused with every single tidbit of natural sciences known to man during their schooling days already - which is why Spock or Sulu can easily do it as a second job. That's why everybody can talk technobabble and read Okudagrams, too: sciences is no longer a skill, but an inoculation.

Really, besides the end credits (which aren't really canon IMHO, since canonically Kirk is not an impostor whose real name is Shatner), nothing really establishes what sort of sciences Sulu dabbled in. Perhaps he was a botanist by academic training, and the role of Chief Science Officer on Kirk's ship belonged to a botanist at the time of "Where No Man"? The top Sciences guy need not be a specialist in astrophysics or anything like that - he only needs to be a guy, gal or BEM who understands the language of science and can coordinate all the researchers in his department, regardless of their field of study.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Praetor]

Point well taken, Timo. I tend to agree that Starfleet officers, on average, are probably a lot "smarter" and more scientific in many different areas than, well, me.

And I lol'd at "guy, gal, or BEM."

 

[Gary Mitchell]

Kirk does refer to Spock as his Science Officer during the briefing room scene before the others leave. Spock still refers to himself as Second Officer in a log entry as late as "Dagger of the Mind."

Mitchell acts like a First Officer by informing Kirk that the department heads are reporting on the Bridge as ordered. Spock keeps his comments basically to the scientific phenomena of the energy barrier and decoding the recorder-marker. It's only after Mitchell is shocked that Spock leaps in and takes over the helm and coordinates the damage reports and reports the info to Kirk.

I say that Mitchell was First Officer and Spock was Second Officer.

I am Gary Mitchell and I approve this message.

 

[Kirk1980]

Well...hell, if the man himself agrees....

 

[Timo]

"Man?" Don't you think he, um, He, might take offense?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ClayinCA]

Ahhh, just give him some Kaferian apples and he'll calm right down.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Ahhh, just give him some Kaferian apples and he'll calm right down.

Unless your Kelso

 

[Gary Mitchell]

Yeah, Kelso had better watch out. I won't smite anyone for calling me "man" though. I am benevolent (most of the time).

 

[Brutal Strudel]

But the things you could do, like... maybe a god could do.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

But the things you could do, like... maybe a god could do.

Yeah but last time he tried that Kirk and Spock tried to dump him on a shitty planet, and I've seen the new movie version its ever worse!