Was DS9 anti-Vulcan

[Sakonna]

Well, the first (of many) reasons I don't buy this DS9-is-anti-Vulcan argument is that DS9 features my personal favorite Vulcan. One guess who it is!

Admiral T'Lara from DSN: Rules of Engagement?

It was actually Sakonna from "The Maquis." Did I find her fascinating! I forgot Admiral T'Lara, I liked her as well... also, she's a good example of a respectable, positively portrayed Vulcan character from DS9.

Would they had resisted going back to the well of stories about Troi's mum.

I actually like "Fascination" and the Lwaxana/Odo half of "The Muse." I fully understand and acknowledge that I am the only one.

 

[KelisThePoet]

So, I've been showing Deep Space Nine to my family, and they haven't been as receptive as I hoped, so I was really dreading when we got to "Fascination," which I consider to be Deep Space Nine's "Threshold." And to my surprise, they all kind of liked it.

 

[Emperor Norton]

I had a thought, and it may get meta. I think Vulcans started off once upon a time as the ideal in Star Trek: people that had put aside harmful passions, who controlled themselves, and who put the world into logic and order, and most of all words. And I think DS9 was the opposite of that, and I'm looking to Avery Brooks in personality as the example of this idea: the world exists in terms of emotions, and is felt, and is nebulous and words are only a poor, limited attempt to define the nebulousness of life for ourselves. Sometimes, words are not necessary, and do not need to be said, even though people try to say them nonetheless. The world is emotion and can only be understood through emotions. And that is the problem with Vulcans which may have been somewhere in the back of their minds. An intellectual who drones on with words and definitions really understands nothing.

 

[Voth commando1]

I had a thought, and it may get meta. I think Vulcans started off once upon a time as the ideal in Star Trek: people that had put aside harmful passions, who controlled themselves, and who put the world into logic and order, and most of all words. And I think DS9 was the opposite of that, and I'm looking to Avery Brooks in personality as the example of this idea: the world exists in terms of emotions, and is felt, and is nebulous and words are only a poor, limited attempt to define the nebulousness of life for ourselves. Sometimes, words are not necessary, and do not need to be said, even though people try to say them nonetheless. The world is emotion and can only be understood through emotions. And that is the problem with Vulcans which may have been somewhere in the back of their minds. An intellectual who drones on with words and definitions really understands nothing.

In the minds of the Vulcans themselves or the writers?

 

[Greg Cox]

I don't think the Vulcans were ever intended to be a role models for humanity. They represented one extreme, possibly taken too far. Even as far back as TOS, McCoy was challenging the Vulcan "ideal" at every opportunity (see his closing speech in "Requiem for Methuselah," for instance), and even Spock referred to it as "a self-made purgatory."

And, of course, the whole point of the first movie is Spock (and V'Ger) discovering that pure logic is not enough; that "simple feelings" are vital, too.

So the Vulcan philosophy was being challenged long before DS9.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think the Vulcans were ever intended to be a role models for humanity. They represented one extreme, possibly taken too far. Even as far back as TOS, McCoy was challenging the Vulcan "ideal" at every opportunity (see his closing speech in "Requiem for Methuselah," for instance), and even Spock referred to it as "a self-made purgatory."

And, of course, the whole point of the first movie is Spock (and V'Ger) discovering that pure logic is not enough; that "simple feelings" are vital, too.

So the Vulcan philosophy was being challenged long before DS9.

Very true. Many Spock episodes are about Spock breaking out of the restraints of being Vulcan and going with the human way.

 

[Voth commando1]

I like what an earlier poster said about Sisko being an emotional individual and DS9 being very much about characters that put their passions ahead of logic and discipline.

Sisko is being a half prophet(frightening and terrible as that is) out of time somewhat. He isn't a representative of 24th century humanity. Picard is and Janeway tries to be.

Sisko doesn't like Vulcans(cuz honestly he doesn't) and the DS9 crew takes a mildly resenting amusement to their lack of passion in Take me out to the Holosuite because they aren't filled with passion, they don't love as they do, or think or act as humans(well humans Sisko is comfortable with) Trill, Bajorans, Klingons, Ferengi and Changelings-those are emotional beings. Vulcans aren't.

Emotion, passion, romance, love, religion, hate those things are not the province of Vulcans but they are the province of the inhabitants of DS9.

 

[WebLurker]

It's worth noting that DS9 didn't use the Vulcans as much as the other shows did. In all honesty, DS9 never really seemed anti-Vulcan to me. Take the famous "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" episode; Vulcans as a people aren't vilified, just a specific character.

Like any species (or nations, if we take this to real life), Vulcans would have their good members, bad members, and those in between.

 

[Voth commando1]

It's worth noting that DS9 didn't use the Vulcans as much as the other shows did. In all honesty, DS9 never really seemed anti-Vulcan to me. Take the famous "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" episode; Vulcans as a people aren't vilified, just a specific character.

Like any species (or nations, if we take this to real life), Vulcans would have their good members, bad members, and those in between.

A whole race following the teachings of a stoic isn't "Real life."

 

[WebLurker]

A whole race following the teachings of a stoic isn't "Real life."

Yeah, I meant that in real life, people from different countries/backgrounds/whatever are all not one way, with good people and bad people mixed. The same would make sense for aliens in a sci-fi world.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, I meant that in real life, people from different countries/backgrounds/whatever are all not one way, with good people and bad people mixed. The same would make sense for aliens in a sci-fi world.

Yep, the first Vulcans we meet after Spock don't exactly make a good impression.

 

[Tosk]

Spock himself hardly made a good impression. So much shouting.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Spock himself hardly made a good impression. So much shouting.

He seemed genuinely concern about the women.

 

[Voth commando1]

Okay we've gotten into joke territory now.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

A JOKE! IS A STORY WITH A HUMOROUS CLIMAX!

 

[Bad Thoughts]

A JOKE! IS A STORY WITH A HUMOROUS CLIMAX!

That is a joke. I get it. It is not funny, but I get it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

WE LEARN BY DOING!

 

[publiusr]

To all Vulcans who have visited DS9
You could have suffered Trellium-D poisoning. This causes one to lose face and display emotions
Please contact the law firm of Dewey, Cheatham and Howe at Ferenginar.
http://www.deweycheatham-howe.com/

 

[Will M.]

A whole race following the teachings of a stoic isn't "Real life."

No but if you look at one of the factors that brought down the Roman Republic, the Bonnie the "good men" included a number of stoics(Cato chief among them) that did push the situation with Caesar either giving him the justification to declare himself dictator for life or causing him to do so(or perhaps a bit of both).

Going too far on any philosophy tends to be a bad thing.

 

[Voth commando1]

Vulcans are key aspect of the Trek mythos and one I think because of that deserves respect.