Was DS9 anti-Vulcan

[Emperor Norton]

As is insanity.

And if there were insanity, it kinda makes sense for him to rely on logic as his personal excuse in some way. But the way it is cast is so quick and unexplained that it really does come across as a narrative showcase of Vulcan philosophy and the Vulcan people sucking.

 

[Tosk]

But the way it is cast is so quick and unexplained that it really does come across as a narrative showcase of Vulcan philosophy and the Vulcan people sucking.

Are you saying that you think the episode was presenting the Vulcan as a normal member of his species? (As far as the writers of DS9 saw them.)

If so, I strongly disagree.

 

[Emperor Norton]

Are you saying that you think the episode was presenting the Vulcan as a normal member of his species? (As far as the writers of DS9 saw them.)

If so, I strongly disagree.

I think that the way the Vulcan was presented by the story and structure was sort of a slight against Vulcans. He's just hateful of people with emotions, because "logic". If it were a human, we'd get more insight into the character and their mental torture or degeneration, so even if you disagreed with it, you knew what their screwed perception was. But for the Vulcan, it comes across more as the dogma of logic saying emotions are so evil they must be corrected, with the tragedy of what happened to this person tearing off a thin veil hiding a cold but deep hate for emotional humanoids.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I think that the way the Vulcan was presented by the story and structure was sort of a slight against Vulcans. He's just hateful of people with emotions, because "logic". If it were a human, we'd get more insight into the character and their mental torture or degeneration, so even if you disagreed with it, you knew what their screwed perception was. But for the Vulcan, it comes across more as the dogma of logic saying emotions are so evil they must be corrected, with the tragedy of what happened to this person tearing off a thin veil hiding a cold but deep hate for emotional humanoids.

Because after struggling to develop Ezri, a new character, and Joran, a psychopath whom we've barely glimpsed, we need to add a third psychological profile to the mix? This is getting thin.

 

[Emperor Norton]

Because after struggling to develop Ezri, a new character, and Joran, a psychopath whom we've barely glimpsed, we need to add a third psychological profile to the mix? This is getting thin.

Yes. That's why you do a serial killer in a storytelling narrative. Either they are evil outright with no reason, or you get a profile of how messed up they are and how warped they are. Usually that is sprinkled throughout the story, even before you know they are the killer. We know that he suffered a trauma, but we don't get anything other than "well, it must have affected him". I mean, I think it would have been better if his only word and explanation on the matter was not "Because logic demanded it". Because he does not come off as deranged or distrubed. He comes off as calculating for something he fully understands, without a reason to hold back anymore because "emotional humanoids are bad, as all we Vulcans know, so I will no longer be polite as to tolerate them". And I highlight tolerate because, taken in conjunction with other Vulcan appearances on DS9, it feels like their take is that the Vulcans never like or get along well with others. They just put up with non-Vulcans, with regular snobby, passive aggressive remarks to show their true disdain.

 

[Voth commando1]

Did the writers have anything against Vulcans because it sure as heck seems like they didn't like em.

 

[Jono]

Yes. That's why you do a serial killer in a storytelling narrative. Either they are evil outright with no reason, or you get a profile of how messed up they are and how warped they are. Usually that is sprinkled throughout the story, even before you know they are the killer. We know that he suffered a trauma, but we don't get anything other than "well, it must have affected him". I mean, I think it would have been better if his only word and explanation on the matter was not "Because logic demanded it". Because he does not come off as deranged or distrubed. He comes off as calculating for something he fully understands, without a reason to hold back anymore because "emotional humanoids are bad, as all we Vulcans know, so I will no longer be polite as to tolerate them". And I highlight tolerate because, taken in conjunction with other Vulcan appearances on DS9, it feels like their take is that the Vulcans never like or get along well with others. They just put up with non-Vulcans, with regular snobby, passive aggressive remarks to show their true disdain.

If you just take two examples of Vulcans on DS9 that what you'll come up with. Anyway, the idea that Vulcans don't play well with more emotional beings came about well before DS9 aired.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If you just take two examples of Vulcans on DS9 that what you'll come up with. Anyway, the idea that Vulcans don't play well with more emotional beings came about well before DS9 aired.

Every species comes off worse for the wear on DS9. This alleged "slight" is slight, indeed.

 

[JonVP]

Their portrayal on DS9 never bothered me.

I think there’s always been some distrust between “emotional” species like Humans and “cold logical” Vulcans. We probably expect every Vulcan to behave like Tuvok or Sarek (Spock is only half-Vulcan, so he doesn’t count), but there are billions of them out there so once and awhile you’ll probably encounter one who isn’t really likeable.

 

[Voth commando1]

Tuvok and Sarek both interact with humans on a routine basis, wouldn't other Vulcans in Starfleet do the same?

 

[Tenacity]

Their portrayal on DS9 never bothered me.

Bothered my grandmother, she was a big fan of TOS and really into 1970's fandom. '70's fandom created this entire mythos about the Vulcans. Sage, wise and calm, almost mystics.

Read Vulcan Academy Murders sometime, nice people.

DS9 and ENT stepped all over her (very unofficial) views.

 

[Voth commando1]

ENT screwed them up badly with the abominable episode of Carbon Creek being a major vomit inducer but hey they made progress in season 4.

Voyager had Tuvok and Vorik both were true to the characterization of Vulcans since TOS and is why when Vulcans were concerned Voyager was superior to DS9/ENT

 

[Greg Cox]

A certain segment of fandom tends to idealize Vulcans, even though this kinda flies in the face of everything we saw on TOS. Spock is admirable; it does not, however, therefore follow that all Vulcans must be admirable. Or that the occasional Vulcan can't get on people's nerves.

Vulcans were never meant to be role models for humanity. They represent one extreme, just as Spock and McCoy represent different extremes, with Kirk in the middle of the spectrum.

And, honestly, I never had any problems with ENTERPRISE's Vulcans. They were a mixed bag, with good and bad characteristics, and a range of personality types, just like any other species.

 

[Nerys Myk]

A certain segment of fandom tends to idealize Vulcans, even though this kinda flies in the face of everything we saw on TOS. Spock is admirable; it does not, however, therefore follow that all Vulcans must be admirable. Or that the occasional Vulcan can't get on people's nerves.

Vulcans were never meant to be role models for humanity. They represent one extreme, just as Spock and McCoy represent different extremes, with Kirk in the middle of the spectrum.

And, honestly, I never had any problems with ENTERPRISE's Vulcans. They were a mixed bag, with good and bad characteristics, and a range of personality types, just like any other species.

Yep. Pretty much my thoughts as well.

 

[Emperor Norton]

I think it is bad to think that the Vulcans, because they have different beliefs, cannot get along with anyone. I would go with the concept that it is like having a political disagreement in the family. You may argue, rather bitterly, and for a Vulcan this is projected as calm demeanor and routing someone with logic, hoisting them on their own emotional overreaction when they lose control, and a raised eyebrow. But you are still family, you have a bond, and you stay together and support one another, and find whatever common ground there is. And you try to avoid talking about politics. This is the family of the Federation. The problem is when the latter part is not portrayed. Those are Vulcans who are smug and superior. They think they are right, so therefore everyone else is inferior and not to be trifled with. To continue the analogy, this is like that same family member leaving for the big city when they turn 18 and only talking with people who agree with them about how evil people who disagree with them are, which must be right because everyone they talk to agrees with them.

 

[UnknownSample]

And that "Journey to Babel" had Sarek suspected of murder, with even Spock admitting that his father was capable of killing in cold blood if he saw a logical reason to do so...

He was suspected only because he and the other ambassador had argued. As for being "capable of killing" ... so is Spock. So is Kirk. Because of Star Fleet training, so is every person in the crew. What's unflattering about that?

I agree about DS9. Berman etc did not think a whole hell of a lot of Vulcans.

 

[Sakonna]

Well, the first (of many) reasons I don't buy this DS9-is-anti-Vulcan argument is that DS9 features my personal favorite Vulcan. One guess who it is!

But I think the actual truth of the situation is that DS9 just doesn't see a point in covering the same ground that other Trek has already done well. The exception to that is the Klingons, but that was executive edict. Meanwhile, look at what a great job they do resisting the drug of Borg appearances! After one kick-off Q guest spot, they never go back to that well. They're similarly disinterested in real focus on the Romulans. Their entire approach to the Ferengi is about revamping and fixing the problems of their presentation on TNG (which created another set of problems, but that's another story). Bajorans, Cardassians, and Trill were all introduced by TNG, but it's DS9 that actually builds them out. And the rest of the species we focus on are DS9's own inventions.

The Memory Alpha page on "Field Of Fire" offers a good explanation of why not everything that winds up on screen merits such a deep reading. It talks about how the writing staff was overwhelmed and in disarray trying to fix the troubled scripts for "Prodigal Daughter" and "The Emperor's New Cloak" (while "Chimera" was also being written), and Behr had to call up Robert Hewitt Wolfe and ask him to freelance this script in order to have anything at all ready to shoot in that slot.

According to Wolfe, a Vulcan serial killer was chosen in order to shock viewers. He commented, "What would be the biggest surprise to a regular Star Trek fan? No one's going to be surprised if a Bajoran or a Cardassian or a Romulan is the killer. But a Vulcan serial killer? That'll make you sit up and take notice. I wanted to show the psychological strains of the War are far-reaching. If you've got a Vulcan who's cracking under the battle, that says something." (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion, p. 651)

I've worked on a lot of TV. Production is a machine that does not stop, and making a season is an exhausting marathon. No one likes it and it's a terrible feeling when you're there, but sometimes you're in the weeds and frantically pulling it together as best you can. There is no time to develop unified theories about negative presentations of alien races that barely appear. You're just focused on wrestling the story in front of you into the best shape it can be before they call "action", and then you rush on to the next set of challenges.

(Though I do think it's a shame that the original notion, that it really says something about the horrors of the war if even the Vulcans are becoming deranged, isn't effectively explored on screen. That's an interesting idea, and also directly counter to a DS9-anti-Vulcan conspiracy theory. But sometimes the execution fails)

 

[Voth commando1]

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's an observation based on on-screen evidence that Vulcans are portrayed as jerky, inept, or just plain terrible on DS9.

Berman yeah well okay though I must doubt he was that hostile-see Tim Russ performance as Tuvok.

Now I remember that Maquis Vulcan name ah yes Sakonna so she can't penetrate Dukat's mind seriously? The DS9 writers did this I'm sure to say "hey Dukat's so awesome he can resist Vulcan mind probing" that just rubbed me the wrong way, the take me out to holosuite damn the Vulcan captain ought to be beating him a hundred to one or just beating him period.

They aren't portrayed with consistency to prior trek or any level of regard Vulcans are usually shown so that was irksome.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Well, the first (of many) reasons I don't buy this DS9-is-anti-Vulcan argument is that DS9 features my personal favorite Vulcan. One guess who it is!

Admiral T'Lara from DSN: Rules of Engagement?

 

[KelisThePoet]

DS9 just doesn't see a point in covering the same ground that other Trek has already done well. The exception to that is the Klingons, but that was executive edict. Meanwhile, look at what a great job they do resisting the drug of Borg appearances! After one kick-off Q guest spot, they never go back to that well.

Would they had resisted going back to the well of stories about Troi's mum.

Solok is a bully, very much in the mold of the bullies Amanda describes tormenting Spock, in "Journey to Babel." As an adult and a Starfleet captain, he ought to have grown out of it, but some people never do, and I see no logical reason why Vulcans would be the exception.