Was Cordelia supposed to be Illyria?

[RoJoHen]

From what I've heard, the original intent was for Cordelia herself to become evil in Season 4. She was going to be completely taken over by Jasmine. When Charisma Carpenter got pregnant, they changed the story so that Cordy actually gave birth to Jasmine.

Then Charisma Carpenter leaves the show.

About a half a season later, Fred finds an artifact, and her body gets taken over by an evil demon. Was this a re-write of the original Cordelia storyline? Did Whedon just really want his female lead to be evil?

 

[Tomato]

^

I think it was to "power up" Fred. I heard in S6 that Fred would be able to change back and forth between Illyria. It was done in a way so she could do more in fight scenes. Plus it was another excuse for Joss to kill another character.

 

[Warp Coil]

IIRC, Joss specifically decided to create Illyria for Amy Acker. Joss was known for inviting the casts of Buffy and Angel over to his house and they would sing musicals and perform Shakespeare plays 'n such. Joss really enjoyed watching Amy play all of these different, powerful characters and so he thought it might be fun to give her something interesting to do. It also shook up the character dynamics on the show.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Cordelia was supposed to be Jasmine. Only when Charisma Carpenter needed writing out did Jasmine need making into a separate character.

Illyria was a last-minute brainstorm to give Amy Acker something different to do.

And basically, Joss turned one of his lead characters evil so frequently that it doesn't need to be a rewrite - it's pretty much a motif of the universe.

 

[zengoth]

and i'm just about to watch the first Illyria ep again...

i agree that Illyria gave Amy Acker some room to stretch her skillz (hope she's got some good stuff coming in Dollhouse...it seems such a waste now.) And, as the After the Fall comics show - there'd have been plenty of split personality shenanigans if the show had gone past S5.

As far as Cordelia becoming Jasmine...it would've been cool to hear Charisma deliver that immortal line: "I ate them."

 

[Velocity]

Illyria was an interesting character. Much better than Cordelia, who became an awful character by the time they got rid of her.

 

[theenglish]

Cordelia just didn't have much to do really after all the other characters were introduced. They all had their own specialties and their own powers and Cordelia was just the hold-over from Buffy. The "romance with Angel" angle was also incredibly unbelievable and should have been axed even sooner than it was.

 

[RoJoHen]

Cordelia just didn't have much to do really after all the other characters were introduced. They all had their own specialties and their own powers and Cordelia was just the hold-over from Buffy. The "romance with Angel" angle was also incredibly unbelievable and should have been axed even sooner than it was.

I thought Angel and Cordelia's romance made a helluva lot more sense than Angel and Buffy ever did!

 

[DS9Continuing]

Cordelia just didn't have much to do really after all the other characters were introduced. They all had their own specialties and their own powers and Cordelia was just the hold-over from Buffy.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. Almost as if you haven't actually seen the show.

Cordelia was their connection to the Powers. She was the one who got the visions, that told them when and where to do their actual work of saving people. How you can say that the one and only person who actually allowed them to do the job they were meant to do is irrelevant is frankly baffling.

In fact, that's the whole point of the first half of season 5 - without Cordelia, their connection to the powers is lost and they feel aimless, unable to do any good. It's not until she returns that they are put back on the right path. If anything, she was the most important character on the show.

 

[RoJoHen]

Cordelia just didn't have much to do really after all the other characters were introduced. They all had their own specialties and their own powers and Cordelia was just the hold-over from Buffy.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. Almost as if you haven't actually seen the show.

Cordelia was their connection to the Powers. She was the one who got the visions, that told them when and where to do their actual work of saving people. How you can say that the one and only person who actually allowed them to do the job they were meant to do is irrelevant is frankly baffling.

In fact, that's the whole point of the first half of season 5 - without Cordelia, their connection to the powers is lost and they feel aimless, unable to do any good. It's not until she returns that they are put back on the right path. If anything, she was the most important character on the show.

Completely agree. I felt a huge void when she gone in Season 5, and you could tell the characters did too.

 

[Daneel]

I actually recall hearing a rumour that Joss was originally considering the Illyria plotline for Xander during the final season of Buffy. In fact, I believe I heard said rumour on these boards, a little after Buffy had wrapped (I was lurking back then). IIRC, some poster here claimed that the original plan was for Xander to die and come back as some kind of uber-powerful demon -- which sounds very similar to the whole Fred/Illyria thing.

I have no idea if there is any basis in truth to that rumour, but it's kind of interesting regardless. How would that have changed things? The rest of Buffy's final season would have been quite different, plus I imagine they wouldn't have introduced Illyria on Angel, making its final season very different as well.

 

[Trent Roman]

Cordelia was their connection to the Powers. She was the one who got the visions, that told them when and where to do their actual work of saving people. How you can say that the one and only person who actually allowed them to do the job they were meant to do is irrelevant is frankly baffling.

Actually, I kinda agree with him: the visions were the key plot point for launching the adventure-of-the-week episodes in Season 1 and partially Season 2, but by the third season (and, arguably, mid-way through the second) they had become secondary, then entirely forgotten, as the show became more about the characters and their involvements with each other and metaphysical machinations.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Anwar]

They were kind of running out of ideas for Xander after S3 I think. Originally they were going to have him leave the show but Nicholas renewed his contract. Then they were thinking of making him Glory's human host in S5 and then having him kill himself at the end, but didn't go through with it. Then they were going to have him be killed by Caleb but settled for just having him lose an eye.

 

[hyzmarca]

They're decision to turn Xander into Nick Fury: Director of the Slayerettes, in Season 8 probably could have came sooner.

The funny thing about Cordellia is that she affected the show most by screwing up, by being tempted and failing, because she wanted to be important to the team. If she had given her visions to the Groosullag when the oppertunity first arose, if she had gotten rid of the visions when they started impacting her health, if she had refused to become a half-demon, if she had refused to ascend to a higher plane of existence, and if she hadn't demanded to come back when she realized that she was an impotent watcher there, things would have happened much differently, and proably better.

It was her absolute failure to love herself for herself, her failure to accept herself for herself, her desire to be special and imporant, that drove everything, especially the death and destruction.

It's also kind of funny that Wolfram and Heart, purely as a duble-effect of their evil schemes, did more good than the Powers that Screw You ever did, particularly where Angel was concerned.

The Powers's biggest contrubutions to Angel's life were killing Cordillia and tricking him out of his humanity. Wolfram and Hart saved Connor, ressurrected Darla as a human, saved Buffy, and destroyed the First's army, among other things.

 

[theenglish]

Cordelia just didn't have much to do really after all the other characters were introduced. They all had their own specialties and their own powers and Cordelia was just the hold-over from Buffy.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. Almost as if you haven't actually seen the show.

Cordelia was their connection to the Powers. She was the one who got the visions, that told them when and where to do their actual work of saving people. How you can say that the one and only person who actually allowed them to do the job they were meant to do is irrelevant is frankly baffling.

In fact, that's the whole point of the first half of season 5 - without Cordelia, their connection to the powers is lost and they feel aimless, unable to do any good. It's not until she returns that they are put back on the right path. If anything, she was the most important character on the show.

Well, I haven't seen it in a long time. You're correct on all these points. I will politely step out of the conversation.

 

[Praetor]

I actually recall hearing a rumour that Joss was originally considering the Illyria plotline for Xander during the final season of Buffy. In fact, I believe I heard said rumour on these boards, a little after Buffy had wrapped (I was lurking back then). IIRC, some poster here claimed that the original plan was for Xander to die and come back as some kind of uber-powerful demon -- which sounds very similar to the whole Fred/Illyria thing.

I have no idea if there is any basis in truth to that rumour, but it's kind of interesting regardless. How would that have changed things? The rest of Buffy's final season would have been quite different, plus I imagine they wouldn't have introduced Illyria on Angel, making its final season very different as well.

That would have been kind of interesting. I can't help but picture Xander a lot like the Devil from 'Legend' with too-heavy horns protruding feet from the front of his head - maybe getting stuck in a doorway a time or two.

 

[Anwar]

Would he also be trying to get Anya to dress up in that uber-Goth outfit Princess Lily had to wear as well?

Xander: Wow, with powers like these I can make a killing in the fashion industry!

 

[DS9Continuing]

Well, I haven't seen it in a long time. You're correct on all these points. I will politely step out of the conversation.

It's not my intention to push you out of the thread. I just didn't agree with what you said.

 

[Velocity]

Cordelia just didn't have much to do really after all the other characters were introduced. They all had their own specialties and their own powers and Cordelia was just the hold-over from Buffy.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. Almost as if you haven't actually seen the show.

Cordelia was their connection to the Powers. She was the one who got the visions, that told them when and where to do their actual work of saving people. How you can say that the one and only person who actually allowed them to do the job they were meant to do is irrelevant is frankly baffling.

In fact, that's the whole point of the first half of season 5 - without Cordelia, their connection to the powers is lost and they feel aimless, unable to do any good. It's not until she returns that they are put back on the right path. If anything, she was the most important character on the show.

Well, I haven't seen it in a long time. You're correct on all these points. I will politely step out of the conversation.

Actually, I agree with you. Anyone could have been the conduit with the Powers after Doyle. Cordelia had nothing to offer, so they had to give her something to do. She wasn't powerful, she wasn't smart, she wasn't nice but that wasn't that helpful either. For me, the show got better after she left. Her character had just gotten worse and worse.

And that whole Sanshu prophecy didn't make sense to me. Angel had the chance to be a real boy in the episode with Buffy but he didn't want to give up his vampire powers that helped him "fight the good fight". So he wanted to become human again by the Sanshu prophecy?

 

[theenglish]

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. Almost as if you haven't actually seen the show.

Cordelia was their connection to the Powers. She was the one who got the visions, that told them when and where to do their actual work of saving people. How you can say that the one and only person who actually allowed them to do the job they were meant to do is irrelevant is frankly baffling.

In fact, that's the whole point of the first half of season 5 - without Cordelia, their connection to the powers is lost and they feel aimless, unable to do any good. It's not until she returns that they are put back on the right path. If anything, she was the most important character on the show.

Well, I haven't seen it in a long time. You're correct on all these points. I will politely step out of the conversation.

Actually, I agree with you. Anyone could have been the conduit with the Powers after Doyle. Cordelia had nothing to offer, so they had to give her something to do. She wasn't powerful, she wasn't smart, she wasn't nice but that wasn't that helpful either. For me, the show got better after she left. Her character had just gotten worse and worse.

And that whole Sanshu prophecy didn't make sense to me. Angel had the chance to be a real boy in the episode with Buffy but he didn't want to give up his vampire powers that helped him "fight the good fight". So he wanted to become human again by the Sanshu prophecy?

No, that's okay, I admit when I make a mistake and I had forgotten the details of her visions. But I do think that the character had run her course so the writers tried a traditional "let us put the two leads in a romantic relationship" that just made no sense.

The way the series was established is that Angel was in love with Buffy and would only be in love with Buffy for as long as she was around. Now, season five's idea that it was okay to fool around makes sense in this contact and part of decent character development for Angel, but the impossibility of true romantic love with Cordelia just short changes her character.