Was blowing up Romulus a good idea?

[Greg Cox]

Wouldn't any mentions of the "new" government, or capital, count as references to the destruction, since there'd be no need for new ones if the old ones were still there?

On a practical level, ninety-nine percent of the time you wouldn't need to specify "old" or "new." Just refer to the Romulans in general, the same way we always did.

"Captain! The Romulan ambassador has been assassinated!"

"Captain! The Romulans are warning us not to enter the Neutral Zone!"

"Captain! This man was killed by a Romulan disruptor!"

How often would a show really have to get into the finer points of where and who the Romulan government was? Heck, Shinzon killed off most of the Senate in NEMESIS so presumably any government after NEMESIS would be a "new" one.

 

[Rahul]

The problem with Romulus blowing up was: It wasn't an event happening in a Trek story.
It was an event happening in an alternate future universe that never happened in the reboot movie it was depicted in.

There's a reason prime-Trek fans (in the long run) want a "post-Nemesis" series. And not a "post-alternate-timeline-future-of-Trek09"-series.

Romulus was destroyed in the Prime timeline, you're thinking of Vulcan, which was destroyed only in the Kelvin timeline.

No, it was exactly as I meant it. Romulus blowing up might have happened in the prime timeline as depicted in the Trek09 movie.

But if you watch the Trek09 movie, it's pretty clear that Romulus blowing up was only a hypothetical alternate future, which outcome was changed by the events in the movie.

As such, a regular viewer has already forgotten about Romulus blowing up (because it hasn't happened yet in this timeline and probably never will), and remembers only Vulcan blowing up. Hell, I forgot that Romulus blowing up was meant to be in the prime timeline until I saw this very thread. And I'm a massive nerd for that.

The event as depicted was basically non-existent for any viewers (because it had no visible consequences for it's timeline which was since disregarded, and it hasn't yet happened in the plot), and is only for the very hardcore-Trek-canon-enthusiasts. Many of whom loathe the handling of canon and continuity of the Kelvin-universe films already. The canon/continuity issues as well as bad science (red matter wormholes that stop "supernovas threatening to destroy the galaxy") of the nuTrek movies was their weakest part, and IMO the reason why thy new series needed to step away from this distorted reality and return to "Trek normal". I see absolutely no benefits in disregarding everything happening in the nuTrek movies and import only their WEAKEST parts back into the prime timeline...

 

[Kemaiku]

It did happen, Spock ("our" Spock) witnessed it, as did Nero. Romulus was destroyed in the Prime (1964-2005) timeline.

Romulans as a species live on, as the novels make clear and would be evident anyway as I doubt they were all on one planet.

The thread is a debate as whether or not that was a good decision.

 

[Greg Cox]

At the time, it was a perfectly reasonable decision.

Going forward, it shouldn't matter much. If and when we ever need to deal with Prime-Universe, 24th century Romulans again, there are easy enough ways to work around Romulus going boom in the movies.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

"Captain! The Romulan ambassador has been assassinated!"

"Captain! The Romulans are warning us not to enter the Neutral Zone!"

"Captain! This man was killed by a Romulan disruptor!"

"Captain! There's a sale at Penny's!"

(sorry, just thought of Airplane! and was in a weird headspace.)

 

[Rahul]

It did happen, Spock ("our" Spock) witnessed it, as did Nero. Romulus was destroyed in the Prime (1964-2005) timeline.

Romulans as a species live on, as the novels make clear and would be evident anyway as I doubt they were all on one planet.

The thread is a debate as whether or not that was a good decision.

I can 100% see where you are coming from, and straight up looking at what was depicted you are right. But at this point in time - with the destruction of Romulus being tied to the Kelvin-continuity by only ever appearing in a Kelvin-timeline movie, that might change. Might.

Marvel owns the Fantastic Four. But they aren't allowed to use them because they sold the movie rights to FOX. They aren't even allowed to reference characters or events like Galactus or the Skrulls in the Avengers movies because they are tied to the FF. We have no idea how the licensing between CBS, Paramount and Bad robots works. But if the Kelvin timeline is currently unavailable to CBS - which there are plenty of signs to, Discovery being set in the prime-timeline being the biggest one, that goes for ALL events depicted in the Kelvin-movies. Even those that were meant to be in the prime timeline. Now that the first 3 nuTrek movies are finished (and the original contracts between bad robot, Paramount and CBS need to be re-negotiated for a potential nuTrek 4), that problem might already be moot and the rights to events depicted in those movies already reverted back for actual use to CBS. We just don't know.

At the moment the destruction of Romulus in the prime-timeline is as undebatable a fact as is the notion that we will never ever see the prime-timeline again and all future incarnations of Trek will take place in the Kelvin-timeline. It seems more than likely. But only the future will really tell.

My original post to that topic:

I'm not entirely sure the destruction of Romulus is actually "canon" for the prime universe....

It depends entirely on how the licensing between CBS and Paramount works - which neither of us has any idea and which could change at any time.

The destruction of Romulus was originally only academic, because they never intended to follow it up with any more stories. They expected all of Trek to migrate to the new continuity. Hell, they originally planned to destroy Earth and kill off Picard as well!

But now that the prime universe continues with Discovery, the question is how much of the new movies will be aknowledged? The destruction of Romulus involves both Nero, the Narada, the Jellyfish and red matter. All things that were created over at Paramount together with JJ Abrams company Bad Robot, whom probably both have creative rights to. In which case we could argue that all this "only" happened in the future of the Kelvin -timeline, which changed their own future. Or not.

I guess this might be one of the multitude of reasons why Discovery is a prequel, so that they don't have to deal with all those rights issues, and can wait until they are sorted out, either by the Kelvin-verse movies being discontinued as a whole (and ALL of their events being disaccounted), or Paramount and CBS merging Trek and them having access to all Trek events. (Might be like the Marvel/Fox Fantastic Four rights issues, where they simply have to wait untill some rights revert back, but need to paddle around the issues for their content in the meantime - by not having DIS be impacted by those events).


All of this is speculation though. At the moment I think the destruction of Romulus is entirely up in the air wether it actually took place in the prime universe or not. It was never intended to be further examined storywise, and it is mingled with the fate of the Kelvin-universe movies. So we probably won't see an answer to that untill the next generation of creators make a definite decision about that.

 

[Kemaiku]

The only thing we're likely to see is the novel-verse finally being able to cover 2387 and onwards after the fourth movie. It may well be the last one, and there's no fear of contradicting canon or taking away revenue for the authors to be able to use the story in the Prime novels.

Hobus was going to consume the galaxy, and the Romulan Empire will have been devastated. There's a lot of story potential from how the Typhon Pact would cope, Federation trying to render aid, the loss of Ambassador Spock etc

The studio isn't going to just drop the concept if they go ahead, if we see post Nemesis Prime stories again the fans will have to deal with having no Romulus or Remus. But as others have pointed out, we barely ever noticed their existance anyway.

 

[The Wormhole]

But if the Kelvin timeline is currently unavailable to CBS - which there are plenty of signs to,

It isn't. CBS owns all Star Trek, they can do whatever they want with the Kelvin timeline and Abrams and Bad Robot have to let them. The only thing Bad Robot has authority over is tie-in material related to the Kelvin verse, which is why those novels were pulled and why Pocket can't touch the events from the movies.

 

[Rahul]

It isn't. CBS owns all Star Trek, they can do whatever they want with the Kelvin timeline and Abrams and Bad Robot have to let them. The only thing Bad Robot has authority over is tie-in material related to the Kelvin verse, which is why those novels were pulled and why Pocket can't touch the events from the movies.

That's not how licensing works. It's a rather audacious claim that the rights to the Kelvin-movies are only tied to tie-in material. If you have any sources or proof for that I would be happy to see them.

Otherwise I assume it works the way licensing usually works: CBS owns the IP. Paramount is licensed to produce the movies. Any characters and events depicted that are unique to those movies has now partially ownership of those who created it. In this case, Paramount (who already had a deal with CBS) and Bad robot (who made one specifically for those Kelvin movies). It's the Nic Locarno/Tom Paris issue all over again. When someone else creates something within your property, they deserve at least royalities everytime it is mentioned (gag contracts in the comic book industry notwithstanding).

That means ALL events depicted in the movies. Even those that are "meant" to be in another timeline. Ergo: CBS owns Star Trek. Bad robot/Paramount at least partially owns the destruction of Romulus by supernova. Referencing that event probably costs CBS money, either in royalties or re-negotiated contract. Which they are probably not willing to pay at the moment when they see no benefits in doing so. So: we have to wait, wether the rights revert back at some time, or CBS is willing to pull some extra bucks. Or ignores the event entirely. It's probably not even decided at this point, only time will tell.

 

[Griffeytrek]

It isn't that the destruction of Romulus was a 'good idea" or a "Bad idea". Really what it was as far as the onscreen portrayals was was a "pointless idea". A potentially game changing concept that they essentially used as a throw away incident and never explored, developed or went back to. Heck outside of Spocks troubles in Love nuTrek barely touches on the destruction of Vulcan.

Weirdly, and yes I know completely and utterly non cannon, the folks over making the ST Online game actually dove into the destruction of Romulus concept and did some quite interesting things with it. Giving it some thought as to what the outcomes would be? What the politics would be? It probably has the best use of the concept and setup that we have seen from any medium.

 

[The Wormhole]

That's not how licensing works. It's a rather audacious claim that the rights to the Kelvin-movies are only tied to tie-in material. If you have any sources or proof for that I would be happy to see them.

How else does one explain the fact that it is only Pocket Books that is forbidden from the Kelvin movies? IDW of course has a tie-in comic series set in the Kelvin Timeline and even depicted the destruction of Romulus in their comics. STO is set entirely in the Prime Universe and has incorporated the destruction of Romulus in their storyline right from Day 1.

It is true Abrams wanted the level of control over his Trek movies you speak of, but CBS didn't grant it.

 

[Rahul]

How else does one explain the fact that it is only Pocket Books that is forbidden from the Kelvin movies? IDW of course has a tie-in comic series set in the Kelvin Timeline and even depicted the destruction of Romulus in their comics. STO is set entirely in the Prime Universe and has incorporated the destruction of Romulus in their storyline right from Day 1.

It is true Abrams wanted the level of control over his Trek movies you speak of, but CBS didn't grant it.

Well, the situation is at least curious. We know from Ben Robinson from Eaglemoss that their "Official Star Trek starships collection" (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Official_Starships_Collection) that they needed to negotiate a seperate licensing agreement for the Kelvin-timeline starships, and that contract said those ships are exclusively allowed to be created as extra-sized special editions.

I just guessed some properties (like comics, and STO) also have made a seperate agreement with all parties to create new content. To be frank I'm just guessing and listening to my gut feeling though.

I'm really curious wether or not IDW's new "Waypoint" series (that is set back in the prime universe again) will make any mentions of Romulus blowing up (If it already did: Tell me, readers! I haven't yet read any of those comics). That might be our first clue.

 

[fireproof78]

It isn't that the destruction of Romulus was a 'good idea" or a "Bad idea". Really what it was as far as the onscreen portrayals was was a "pointless idea". A potentially game changing concept that they essentially used as a throw away incident and never explored, developed or went back to. Heck outside of Spocks troubles in Love nuTrek barely touches on the destruction of Vulcan.

Weirdly, and yes I know completely and utterly non cannon, the folks over making the ST Online game actually dove into the destruction of Romulus concept and did some quite interesting things with it. Giving it some thought as to what the outcomes would be? What the politics would be? It probably has the best use of the concept and setup that we have seen from any medium.

There was more done in the comics with it, including the Romulans utilizing some captured Narada tech, and some of Nero's crew who were left on Rure Penthe escaping to kill the rest of the Vulcan race.

 

[TRiP]

Good or bad, it's established as the last canonical event in the prime universe. Seven years on It's unfortunate that their continues to be a fixed barrier at 2387. I have read the IDW comics, but am not familiar wither the Star Trek Online narratives. The hole left by the loss of the core of the Romulan Empire would make for some interesting stories. So much Federation history revolves around the Romulans. Having them suddenly off the board changes things in so many ways. What happens to their surviving colonies and occupied territories? Do the Klingons make a play for them? And what about their fleet? A considerable number of ships would've been away from Romulus at the time of the supernova. Inevitably some of the crews would band together, would others become privateers or mercenaries? Would the Vulcans honor Spock's efforts and try to re-integrate the survivors? Come on CBS, tear down the wall!

 

[stardream]

I suppose it could be referenced as one of those 'events we do not talk about' with Romulans and everyone else around them complies, either because they are diplomatic or just don't want to get on their bad side. Sort of like Klingon Forehead ridges in Trials and Tribulations, but I suppose even that would be counted as a reference, even if it's a just a blink and you'll miss it reference.

 

[UnknownSample]

Oh, no. The only thing I liked about the Abrams movies is that, since it's a re-written time line, it could be lopped off of Trek history and ignored, if we want. I really think we have to look at it that way, no matter what Real Spock claimed about the "prime" future. Abrams movies don't deserve all this complicated fretting.
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The Abrams movies are supposed to be about what happens if there's a reset in time, that makes years of ST events we've already seen un-happen. Fine. Okay. Then it's simple enough to write another big time-altering event to un-happen anything Real Spock rambled about in Abramsland, and set things back to Prime Time. I'm not a comics fan, but I hear there are "what if?" stories that have no impact on continuity. Make that what the JJverse is. And the point of divergence in Prime is before this destruction of Romulus. Admit it, the new movies are really asking for it. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
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It's unclear whether the new series is actually in the Prime universe. Completely. When was the point of divergence? Discovery is set, at least at the beginning, years before TOS. When is Discovery set, in relation to the moment where the Abrams change starts? Will we see the Prime Universe for a couple years, then along with the rest of the universe it becomes the Abramsverse? Or does the Prime timeline continue indefinitely?
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I am very hazy on anything to do with Abrams movies.

 

[Tenacity]

It did happen, Spock ("our" Spock) witnessed it

It seems unlikely that Spock "witnessed it." Spock knew he was short on time, most likely he traveled directly from Vulcan to the supernova, why would he make a side trip to Romulas? He might have in some way been told or picked up information of the destruction, but he didn't see it personally.

The part of the mind meld that included the destruction, was either Spock imagining the destruction, or perhaps a remote image he was sent.

 

[Ithekro]

Discovery is suppose to be set in the Prime timeline ten years before Kirk's five year mission starts. This would be after the divergence that happened in the Kevin timeline as that happened over thirty years before Kirk's five year mission. Romulus doesn't get destroyed for another 135 years or so from when Discovery starts.

Star Trek Online continues in the Prime timeline after the events Spock described. The Romulan Empire fractures unto a Republic and the reformed Empire with some external aid. The Klingons have taken the opportunity to take over some of the former border territory of the Romulan Star Empire, including some of what use to be part of the Romulan Neutral Zone. Romulus itself is more a cluster of large rocks than a planet. The Romulan Republic is more reasonable, while the renewed Star Empire is more on a war footing from what I recall (under a new Empress, with new allies).

 

[The Wormhole]

It's unclear whether the new series is actually in the Prime universe. Completely. When was the point of divergence? Discovery is set, at least at the beginning, years before TOS. When is Discovery set, in relation to the moment where the Abrams change starts? Will we see the Prime Universe for a couple years, then along with the rest of the universe it becomes the Abramsverse? Or does the Prime timeline continue indefinitely?

We don't really know anything concrete about the point in time Discovery is supposed to be set. We've been told a vague "decade before TOS." Taken literally, that would be the 2250s, roughly the same time Trek XI takes place, twenty years or so after the Kelvin incident.

 

[Timo]

It seems unlikely that Spock "witnessed it." Spock knew he was short on time, most likely he traveled directly from Vulcan to the supernova, why would he make a side trip to Romulas?

This would naturally follow if the supernova were Romulan homestar blowing up. And this is exactly what the movie shows happening.

I mean, there may be ambiguities in what the movie tells. But what it shows is a continuous pan from the planet Romulus to a nearby star that then blows up. Just go watch the scene...

This is also the one and only way for the incident to make astronomical sense. A distant star blowing up might spread FTL destruction by some unnatural Star Trek fashion, but what we see happen to Romulus is a very slow wave of destruction pulverizing the poor planet. And Nero swears he saw the planet die, and immediately thereafter caught Spock in the vicinity of the timehole that Spock had created to swallow the supernova. Why would Nero make a "side trip" there? It only makes sense if "there" is at Romulus.

We still don't know what Spock hoped to achieve exactly. When he deployed his red matter, the supernova had already burst and Romulus had already been pulverized, yet Spock at that point still claimed he "had little time". OTOH, what good would it do to turn Romulus' homestar into a timehole? So perhaps the plan all along was to let the star explode, and then apply the red matter so that the star would revert to something benign. Hard to tell. Nevertheless, we have no reason to think Spock was outright lying about any part of his mind meld narration of the events to Kirk: he could well have been right next to Romulus when the planet died, or at least within the usual visual sensor range.

The part of the mind meld that included the destruction, was either Spock imagining the destruction, or perhaps a remote image he was sent.

Spock has this Alderaan thing down pat - he can tell when a shipload of Vulcans die, and he can "see" Vulcan itself die despite being stranded on a clouded-over little planet somewhere far away. But him seeing with his own eyes the pulverizing of planet Romulus up close is more likely than any alternative.

Timo Saloniemi