Was anyone really surprised by the Valeris revelation?

[ToddKent]

And by "Valeris Revelation" I mean that fact that she was in on the assassination plot in TUC.

I mean, I don't think that anyone was surprised when Chang turned out to be a bad guy since he constantly walked around carrying that giant neon sign that said "I'm a villain" but I got the impression that the Valeris betrayal was meant to be a big surprise.

But if we go by the standard "Agatha Christie-esque" murder mystery conventions then the audience has the expectation that if they follow the clues like the characters then they can solve the mystery. And that means that the characters on screen are all possible suspects. If it turned out that the before unseen "Lt. Jones" did it then it would feel like a cheat.

So that pretty much leaves Spock, Scotty, Uhura, Chekov and Valeris as suspects. And we all knew it wasn't going to be Spock, Scotty, Uhura or Chekov (although that would have really been bold).

It's been mentioned before that the character of Saavik was considered but ultimately not used and I think that was a shame. If it had turned out to be her then that would have at least been somewhat surprising.

 

[jayrath]

I was completely surprised.

 

[MacLeod]

Been that longg ago, since it first came out. So suprised perhaps, shocked no. It would have worked better if it had been Saavik.

 

[MasuPu'a]

I guess a little. I was kind of expecting it to be her once we knew someone on the Enterprise was involved.

Yeah, I wish they had used Saavik. She had motive and history with Trek that would have worked well in the movie. Valeris comes out of no-where, and then when everyone starts looking for the villain on the ship, she quickly becomes the obvious choice.

 

[sonak]

agreed with the point. Valeris was too obvious. Saavik would've worked a lot better. Actually, the "mystery element" of STVI is its weakest part. All of the suspects are too obvious, from Chang to Valeris, to Cartwright, because of his attitudes and comments at the beginning.

 

[Sky]

agreed with the point. Valeris was too obvious. Saavik would've worked a lot better. Actually, the "mystery element" of STVI is its weakest part. All of the suspects are too obvious, from Chang to Valeris, to Cartwright, because of his attitudes and comments at the beginning.

Very true. I so wish it would have been Saavik; the story would've been better and more touching that way.

 

[sonak]

and it would've made sense if they'd connected her motives to the events during TSFS, to show why she felt that way about the Klingons, AND it would have been a thematic contrast to Kirk, who had the same potential motive but DIDN'T give into it.

Wasted opportunity

 

[22 Stars]

Agree 100%. The character was written as Saavik and should have stayed that way.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I was completely surprised.

I would have been. I'm hopeless at whodunnits. But... only days before ST VI had a sneak preview Down Under, "Cinefantastique" magazine came out, filled with interviews, set visits, etc. I decided not to risk any more spoilers (I knew that the earlier drafts had featured Saavik, but had not read any), and decided to only read the captions under the photos. And one caption referred to "the traitor Valeris". Dammit.

A few days later, having seen the movie, I read the whole section the magazine dedicated to the movie. The main text was quite spoiler free.

So, going into the movie, I saw Valeris as an interloper/traitor from the get-go. The character really grated on me, even though I'd loved Kim Cattrall's performance as Miss "Lassie" Honeywell in "Porky's". I think I mainly missed seeing Saavik throw a curve ball that would have taken me by surprise.

I loved Uhura's line at the end about her feeling like Lt Valeris. It was a chilling moment. Imagine if Uhura had been guilty?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I was surprised. I was expecting the conspirators to be the Romulans wanting to start a war between the Federation and the Klingons.

ROMULAN AMBASSADOR [TO THE FEDERATION PRESIDENT]: ...they are vulnerable. There will never be a better time.

 

[Dukhat]

ROMULAN AMBASSADOR [TO THE FEDERATION PRESIDENT]: ...they are vulnerable. There will never be a better time.

LOL, I remember that from the trailer. I thought the same thing you did...talk about taking a scene out of context.

 

[sonak]

I was completely surprised.

I would have been. I'm hopeless at whodunnits. But... only days before ST VI had a sneak preview Down Under, "Cinefantastique" magazine came out, filled with interviews, set visits, etc. I decided not to risk any more spoilers (I knew that the earlier drafts had featured Saavik, but had not read any), and decided to only read the captions under the photos. And one caption referred to "the traitor Valeris". Dammit.

A few days later, having seen the movie, I read the whole section the magazine dedicated to the movie. The main text was quite spoiler free.

So, going into the movie, I saw Valeris as an interloper/traitor from the get-go. The character really grated on me, even though I'd loved Kim Cattrall's performance as Miss "Lassie" Honeywell in "Porky's". I think I mainly missed seeing Saavik throw a curve ball that would have taken me by surprise.

I loved Uhura's line at the end about her feeling like Lt Valeris. It was a chilling moment. Imagine if Uhura had been guilty?

I found that an out of character remark from Uhura, but of course when it comes to TUC, most of the senior officers are suddenly out of character when it comes to the Klingons.

 

[JarodRussell]

I found that an out of character remark from Uhura, but of course when it comes to TUC, most of the senior officers are suddenly out of character when it comes to the Klingons.

After all their experiences with the Klingons in the last movies it's not out of character in my opinion.

 

[Mysterion]

Nope. And that is exactly why it should have been Saavik.

 

[sonak]

I found that an out of character remark from Uhura, but of course when it comes to TUC, most of the senior officers are suddenly out of character when it comes to the Klingons.

After all their experiences with the Klingons in the last movies it's not out of character in my opinion.

um, why does having some encounters with them turn into expressions of racial hostility?

You didn't find it jarring having characters suddenly saying things like "Klingon bitch" or expressing disgust at table manners, etc.?

It was the writer making points without caring that the characters had never expressed sentiments like this before.


(Kirk says "Klingon bastards" in TSFS, but only in the heat of the moment of learning his son was killed, and he never expresses anything like it again in that movie or TFF)

 

[Anwar]

It wouldn't have made any sense if they used Saavik, because her motive would've been influenced by what happened to David in TSFS.

So, because David died she was part of a conspiracy...that had David's FATHER being framed and sent to jail for something he didn't do?! A father she KNEW suffered worse than she did over David?!

 

[Therin of Andor]

So, because David died she was part of a conspiracy...that had David's FATHER being framed and sent to jail for something he didn't do?! A father she KNEW suffered worse than she did over David?!

But Valeris/Saavik probably didn't know that she'd end up responsible for Kirk and McCoy getting arrested for Gorkon's murder and put on trial. If Burke and Samno had vaporized Gorkon, or at least killed him outright, Kirk and McCoy may not have beamed over to the Klingon ship.

 

[JarodRussell]

So with Valeris it was too obvious that she was the traitor, but with Saavik it wouldn't have been? I don't buy that. None of the main characters would be the traitor obviously, so that leaves the only guest character they fit in between, and that's either Saavik or Valeris. And then, it would have been out of character for Saavik to betray the Federation and, moreover, Spock. Roddenberry was spot on about that.

 

[sonak]

So with Valeris it was too obvious that she was the traitor, but with Saavik it wouldn't have been? I don't buy that. None of the main characters would be the traitor obviously, so that leaves the only guest character they fit in between, and that's either Saavik or Valeris. And then, it would have been out of character for Saavik to betray the Federation and, moreover, Spock. Roddenberry was spot on about that.

but obviously Saavik wouldn't have thought of it as betraying the Federation, so I don't understand that argument.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I found that an out of character remark from Uhura, but of course when it comes to TUC, most of the senior officers are suddenly out of character when it comes to the Klingons.

After all their experiences with the Klingons in the last movies it's not out of character in my opinion.

um, why does having some encounters with them turn into expressions of racial hostility?

You didn't find it jarring having characters suddenly saying things like "Klingon bitch" or expressing disgust at table manners, etc.?

It was the writer making points without caring that the characters had never expressed sentiments like this before.


(Kirk says "Klingon bastards" in TSFS, but only in the heat of the moment of learning his son was killed, and he never expresses anything like it again in that movie or TFF)

I recall Kirk referred to them again as "Klingon bastards" in Star Trek V (ironically, just before he's rescued by them).

But I think a few years passed between Star Trek V and Star Trek VI. Something really bad could happened during that time to really sour attitudes towards the Klingons.