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Warpfactor

Some episodes take a long time by necessity, but by the context of other episodes they are not taking weeks. You might even have an episode where they mention specific time like a few days or hours though I can't think of a specific example off of the top of my head. It is highly doubtful that the First Contact Battle was over weeks or days-the Feds wouldn't have lasted that long.

Space is just so big that 1000c just isn't fast enough.
 
Um... why are you assuming 1000c is some sort of speed limit?

I capped my scale, in the comparitive thing I did above, at 10 because I wanted to compare the "Roddenberry Recalculation" to the earlier Warp scales, and HIS SCALE (and ONLY his scale) caps out at WF10.

Going by the "old scale," then... (or by the TWF for that matter, though I won't deal with that one here)... it just keeps going. There IS NO UPPER LIMIT.

WF Multiples of c
11 1331
12 1728
13 2197
14 2744
15 3375
16 4096
17 4913
18 5832
19 6859
20 8000
30 27000
40 64000
50 125000

You following now?
 
broberfett said:
Space is just so big that 1000c just isn't fast enough.

Like I said, the 1000c Tuvok stated was probably a calculation based on an average velocity of warp 7 because theres no way Voyager could have sustained a warp 9.975 all the way home, it would be a bigger drain on fuel and could likely cause damage to the nacelles.
Therefore its logical to assume that warp 9.9 is much much faster than warp 7 and can be sustained for shorter periods of time thus allowing ships like the Enterprise to jump from one star system to another in the Alpha Quadrant in a much shorter time.
 
The engines would actually start sounding louder like they were gonna explode. You never actually got the feeling on TNG like they actually were even close to exploding.
 
broberfett said:
The engines would actually start sounding louder like they were gonna explode. You never actually got the feeling on TNG like they actually were even close to exploding.

No, just the ship's elevator music got more menacing.
 
Like I said, the 1000c Tuvok stated was probably a calculation based on an average velocity of warp 7 because theres no way Voyager could have sustained a warp 9.975 all the way home...

Unfortunately, there's this other major source for 1000 ly/y: Janeway's "Caretaker" claim is that "even at maximum warp", the journey of 75,000 ly would take 75 years. It sounds as if she is speaking of the hypothetical, physically impossible situation where the ship remains at maximum warp the whole time, and she uses this hyperbole in order to drive home their deep plight.

But it's just as fair to say that Janeway is actually making a semi-realistic projection here: remain at maximum warp as long as physically possible, count in the mandatory pit stops, and you still get 75 years. In this case, her propagandist point would be that this is still optimism. Most probably, due to assorted adventures and hilarious hijinks, the ship won't be able to maintain this technologically plausible cycle of maximum speed plus pit stops.

In broader terms, I have no problem with the idea that a decades-long journey would always have to be conducted at significantly slower speeds than a days-long one. Indeed, a one-day trip might proceed at a dozen or even a hundred times the average speed of a century-long one, just like a Formula 1 competition let alone a drag race compares to a "ten times around the world" car marathon.

In that sense, equating Voyager's theoretical maximum speed of 9.975 with this 0.73 ly/hr (or 6,400 ly/y) is perfectly all right. The real problems with onscreen warp factors come at the lower end: the low factors must be fast enough for interstellar travel in reasonable time, as shown many times in TOS and VOY (and less often in TNG and DS9 and ENT).

But those pieces of annoying evidence about "between stars at warp 2" could be circumvented, too. Even if Janeway orders the ship to a target several lightyears away at warp 2 (say, "Scorpion"), and the target is reached within minutes, we are quite free to speculate that Janeway ordered the speed increased to warp 5 after the engines had warmed up a bit, then hiked it up to warp 9.

After all, at the conclusion of many episodes, our heroic captains order a departure from a planetary orbit at warp 1. Surely they must order a higher speed at some later timepoint, when the camera looks the other way. So there may well be a technological reason for starting out at low speeds unless there is a pressing need to do otherwise - say, it's easier on the engines or something.

All in all, and amazingly enough, there are very few bits of onscreen evidence that would massively contradict the rough speed scales postulated by Okuda and several of the above posters. We don't need high warp to be hundreds of thousands of cee. We don't need medium warp to be tens of thousands. It usually suffices that high warp is thousands, and our heroes operate at high warp despite seemingly initially ordering medium or low warp.

The few blatant instances to the contrary mostly come from TOS, and require very high values of high warp (say, "Bread and Circuses" or "That Which Survives"). The one other instance is ST5:TFF, where a couple of hours at explicit warp seven take our heroes to Sha Ka Ree, reputed to be at the center of the galaxy. But there are several workarounds there, probably worth taking.

The cubic scale as such is unworkable. But something within an order of magnitude of that scale should be perfectly workable in 99.99% of Trek. And the "local variables" theory could well cater for an order of magnitude of variation.

Timo Saloniemi
 
^

Timo is right; the Okuda-reference scale for TNG warp factors holds up pretty well. Some good case-by-case on it can be found here: http://www.calormen.com/Star_Trek/ There really is no endemic problem with TNG and later shows blowing the warp scale out of the water, although I'm not sure what was up with DS9 characters taking a runabout to Earth (but that isn't so hard to rationalize as hitching rides on starships along the way).

The TOS references which suggest the ship is vastly faster should probably be viewed as mistakes even at the time; Roddenberry always wanted the journey between stars to be more like a ocean vessel's journeys between ports of call, and one of the early pitch documents has a light years per hour figure in it discussed above that represented the maximum velocity attainable as pretty far below the STV business. Those very brief voyages would be mistakes from another angle, too, allowing near-instantaneous arrivals to help the "nearby" imperiled that Roddenberry recognized as placing problematic limitations on drama.
 
Graham Kennedy of the DITL did say that it is possible that certain parts of the galaxy has so called warp highways/regions that let starships travel thousands of times faster than they would at normal warp.
 
broberfett said:
I like to disregard Enterprise in its Entirety. For the Warp 5 Enterprise to reach the Klingon homeworld in such a short time they would have needed some sort of Hyperspace tunnel. Warp 5 would be 125 times the speed of light by the old way. It would take 2.92 days per light year. Proxima Centauri is 4.22 light years away and that is the closest star to our sun, so it would take 12.32 days just to get there. The Klingons would have to be really, really close.


In Gene Roddenberry's novelization of STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE, Kirk noted prior to the launch of the refit Enterprise that the Intruder was traveling at Warp 7, and that "the Klingon Empire was only days away at those velocities." Unless we are assuming that warp factors are orders of magintude, it is not that much of a leap to assume that a trip from Earth to Klingon space at Warp 4-to-5 would simply be a couple of days longer.
 
But did Roddenberry even have any idea in his head of a real number when he wrote that. To him Warp 7 was probably just really, really, really fast.
 
Maybe that's the best formula of all.

I understand people's misgivings about Cochrane's Formula from STAR TREK MAPS, but Cochrane's Formula offers something no other formula does: a variable that changes based on environment. I've long suspected that FTL speed of warp drives varies depending on the effect of dark matter and/or dark energy on subspace.
 
My W.D.E. (Warp Drive Evolution) approaches warp speed like this:

Cochrane's Forumla from STAR TREK MAPS (warp factor cubed, multiplied by Cochrane's Variable, multiplied by lightspeed) is the foundation, except that Cochrane's Variable is affected by subspace interaction with dark matter and dark energy, rather than gravitation by density of mass.

Warp drive evolved by surpassing certain technological milestones:

Warp 1.0 barrier - Zephrem Cochrane did this with the Phoenix. Subsequent starship designs (such as the Valiant) were able to travel as fast as Warp 1.0 to Warp 2.0, but no faster.

Warp 2.0 barrier - This was broken by the NX Project.

Warp 5.0 barrier - This was broken by the NX Class Starships.

Warp 7.0 barrier - It is possible that early Federation starships could achieve Warp 7 ("These Are the Voyages...") but were not able to sustain Warp 7 until the mid-23rd century. (Capt. Pike thought it was a big enough deal to take the ship to Warp 7 that he announced it to the whole crew in "The Cage".)

Warp 9 barrier - As Constitution-class starships began "pushing the envelope" of their performance specs, and engineers began refining the ships' engines, and they began encountering new technologies in deep space, higher speeds became possible. The dangers of these new speeds also became evident. ("Is There In Truth No Beauty?")

Linear Warp Drive - When it became clear that speeds above Warp 8 were unusually hazardous, Federation propulsion engineers began exploring Klingon drive technology, which incorporated two warp fields in one drive system, overlapping their fields along the axis of motion. As with the Klingons, this resulted in "linear warp drive", or "fourth-power warp drive". Lower warp factors rendered higher FTL velocities. As Spock noted in "Elaan of Troyus", "Their speed is better than Warp 6", but the Klingons were only travelling at linear Warp 4. The tradeoff was that balancing the two sets of warp fields was much more difficult, and required more careful balancing of power through the intermix formula. This lowered the maximum warp specs, but still rendered higher velocities. (The refit Enterprise intercepted V'ger at Warp 7, but it was going Linear Warp 7, which would be seven times faster than before.

Linear Warp 8 barrier - Linear Warp 8 would be the same as "classic" Warp 16, but sustaining this speed took decades of technological refinement. It wasn't until the second quarter of the 24th century when Ambassador-class starships were capable of sustaining Warp 8.

Linear Warp 9 barrier - It wasn't until the 2360's before the Galaxy-class starships could reliably sustain speeds in excess of Warp 9.

Transwarp - Federation propulsion engineers have been lookiing to cheat the Warp 10 barrier by yet again side-stepping the limit with even faster FTL speeds per warp factor. Two avenues explored in the transcendent warp realm were Transwarp Conduits, which were limited-dunration wormholes, and fifth-power Transwarp Drive. Both methods have proven too difficult to produce reliable propulsion for over 100 years.
 
It is possible that early Federation starships could achieve Warp 7 ("These Are the Voyages...")

Possible indeed. From "Fallen Hero":

T'Pol: "The Sh'Raan is capable of warp seven."

Most of the "barriers" our human heroes would speak about would only be barriers in human terms. Long before Starfleet flew NX-Alpha at warp two, civilian humans no doubt already operated vessels capable of warp three, purchased at a king's ransom from Honest Bzonk's Preowned Starships. Real progress, in true interstellar rather than mere Earth-patriotic terms, would probably only begin with the mid-23rd century vessels that would do warp 7 as a matter of course and be capable of warp 9 or better when pressed.

As for the TMP-style "linear" engines already altering the warp scale... Possibly. It would be more convenient to have the change take place during the unseen years between TOS movies and TNG, though, and perhaps be related to the Excelsior experiments. After all, the TMP engines were never considered particularly experimental (just new and untested), while the NX-2000 drive system was openly marketed as a breakthrough of some sort.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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