Warp in a Solar System
- Thread starter Photon
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Well, Bajor is famous for its bad weather.
Seriously, forks. Two episodes hinge on storms raging in the Bajoran system and hampering traffic. Possibly there are days when warp just plain doesn't work (which is why so many emergency sorties between the station and the planet take place at impulse) and others when warp engines are at risk of blowing up.
In clear weather, the heroes go to warp in the Defiant right after undocking from the station; yet during the events of "By Inferno's Light", not only did Kira and Dax exchange words about the dangers of warp travel, but the local star being bombed was supposed to catch a fleet of starships by surprise even though an explosion would supposedly only propagate at lightspeed, giving a quarter of an hour of warning for those ships to warp away.
Earth's own Sol might be a similarly ill-tempered star, so that on one of its off days, the mighty Borg and the brave Starfleet both would slow down to impulse even when the fate of Earth was at stake, whereas random Archers and Kirks were always hopping to warp right from Earth's orbit or even from within Earth's atmosphere.
Timo Saloniemi
Seriously, forks. Two episodes hinge on storms raging in the Bajoran system and hampering traffic. Possibly there are days when warp just plain doesn't work (which is why so many emergency sorties between the station and the planet take place at impulse) and others when warp engines are at risk of blowing up.
In clear weather, the heroes go to warp in the Defiant right after undocking from the station; yet during the events of "By Inferno's Light", not only did Kira and Dax exchange words about the dangers of warp travel, but the local star being bombed was supposed to catch a fleet of starships by surprise even though an explosion would supposedly only propagate at lightspeed, giving a quarter of an hour of warning for those ships to warp away.
Earth's own Sol might be a similarly ill-tempered star, so that on one of its off days, the mighty Borg and the brave Starfleet both would slow down to impulse even when the fate of Earth was at stake, whereas random Archers and Kirks were always hopping to warp right from Earth's orbit or even from within Earth's atmosphere.
Timo Saloniemi
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How have I never realized that before? That's a giant plot hole in the episode as written. If we don't go with your storm idea, perhaps the subspace affects of such a large explosion would be FTL and prevent warp travel in the local area. But I do like your "weather" idea as is compensates for the uneven use of warp in solar systems.
Of course, what the bombing was "supposed" to achieve is mere speculation by our heroes, never confirmed or denied by the villains involved.
What it did achieve is clear: it created panic. And possibly a diversion that allowed the Founder posing as Bashir to make its escape. We do know that a bit of skinny-dipping in space doesn't harm Founders; blowing up the runabout with a device emitting a fake starkiller signature would achieve a lot of things, foremost of these confusion (to allow the Founder to swim away) and distrust at Bajor as a safe anchorage (to weaken the Alpha Alliance's commitment to the system).
But yes, space weather. And a star system being hostile to warp travel virtually never happens. There's this one mention in DS9 (plus those foul-weather episodes and the implications), the one from TNG "Best of Both Worlds II" (not explicit - perhaps the heroes re-entered warp when we weren't looking, as the travel time estimates they give are FTL or at least highly time-dilated), and the one from ST:TMP (but Kirk was flying an untested ship there, so waiting till past Jupiter was probably only prudent).
Timo Saloniemi
What it did achieve is clear: it created panic. And possibly a diversion that allowed the Founder posing as Bashir to make its escape. We do know that a bit of skinny-dipping in space doesn't harm Founders; blowing up the runabout with a device emitting a fake starkiller signature would achieve a lot of things, foremost of these confusion (to allow the Founder to swim away) and distrust at Bajor as a safe anchorage (to weaken the Alpha Alliance's commitment to the system).
But yes, space weather. And a star system being hostile to warp travel virtually never happens. There's this one mention in DS9 (plus those foul-weather episodes and the implications), the one from TNG "Best of Both Worlds II" (not explicit - perhaps the heroes re-entered warp when we weren't looking, as the travel time estimates they give are FTL or at least highly time-dilated), and the one from ST:TMP (but Kirk was flying an untested ship there, so waiting till past Jupiter was probably only prudent).
Timo Saloniemi
My interpretation has always been that one can warp out of or into a system, but depending on the traffic and matter density, one ought not warp inside a star system.
It's pretty difficult to put the blame on traffic or matter density, though, what with space being so big. Let's say Sol has, oh, one hundred and fifty million spacecraft buzzing about at any given moment. If Sulu sets a random course and hits warp eight, the odds of him hitting something would still be pretty much zero. After all, a spacecraft is no bigger than its hull: assorted chase scenes and the like show that a "near miss" doesn't count for anything.
Of course, we might further assume that those 150,000,000 spacecraft all crowd on low Earth orbit (which is why we occasionally see up to three in the same shot, a coincidence of epic proportions). But low Earth orbit is the very place where our heroes rather freely put the pedal to the metal... And OTOH is not involved in the insystem scenarios where our heroes or villains oddly drop out of warp, or worry about risks. Perhaps the traffic is confined to known lanes, and/or readily responds to Starfleet orders to pull aside and free up an emergency lane?
Warping between Bajor and DS9 basically never happens, and never is considered, either. Yet Scotty almost has a stroke when Kirk doesn't want to warp between Elas and Troyius. Is this really because Bajor is the more civilized, i.e. congested system? Not impossible, I guess.
Timo Saloniemi
Of course, we might further assume that those 150,000,000 spacecraft all crowd on low Earth orbit (which is why we occasionally see up to three in the same shot, a coincidence of epic proportions). But low Earth orbit is the very place where our heroes rather freely put the pedal to the metal... And OTOH is not involved in the insystem scenarios where our heroes or villains oddly drop out of warp, or worry about risks. Perhaps the traffic is confined to known lanes, and/or readily responds to Starfleet orders to pull aside and free up an emergency lane?
Warping between Bajor and DS9 basically never happens, and never is considered, either. Yet Scotty almost has a stroke when Kirk doesn't want to warp between Elas and Troyius. Is this really because Bajor is the more civilized, i.e. congested system? Not impossible, I guess.
Timo Saloniemi
A DS9 writer watched TMP, saw it was somehow a big deal then (even though TOS warped out of orbit all the time) and wasn't paying enough attention to realise that every single other incarnation of Trek warps in and out of orbit like it's nothing.
Put two ships in the open sea, without wind or tide, and, at last, they will come together. Throw two planets into space, and they will fall one on the other. Place two enemies in the midst of a crowd, and they will inevitably meet; it is a fatality, a question of time; that is all.
--- Jules Verne
Ships that pass in the night, and speak each other in passing, only a signal shown, and a distant voice in the darkness; So on the ocean of life, we pass and speak one another, only a look and a voice, then darkness again and a silence
--- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Arguable the oceans are vast, yet two ships encountering each other is considered a BFD: it is seen as a possibility of collision. The vastness of the oceans counts for little. Indeed, the vastness is false comfort, as, on the one hand, ships tend to travel between popular locations and, on the other, it's difficult to account for the activities of numerous small craft.
I don't see why travel in a solar system would be any easier. A ship leaving the Bajoran system might be able to plot a safer course by leaving the planetary plane. Traveling within the plane presents more problems as ships are leaving popular ports of call or are loitering about planet and other important bodies.
--- Jules Verne
Ships that pass in the night, and speak each other in passing, only a signal shown, and a distant voice in the darkness; So on the ocean of life, we pass and speak one another, only a look and a voice, then darkness again and a silence
--- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Arguable the oceans are vast, yet two ships encountering each other is considered a BFD: it is seen as a possibility of collision. The vastness of the oceans counts for little. Indeed, the vastness is false comfort, as, on the one hand, ships tend to travel between popular locations and, on the other, it's difficult to account for the activities of numerous small craft.
I don't see why travel in a solar system would be any easier. A ship leaving the Bajoran system might be able to plot a safer course by leaving the planetary plane. Traveling within the plane presents more problems as ships are leaving popular ports of call or are loitering about planet and other important bodies.
It was first mentioned in Tmp.. and regularly followed in the Berman era, but was ignored alot "for Plot"
Tos warped in systems alot, even warp battles "In System"
Now the "Disco" Hyperspace jump from warp to stand still over a planet is annoying (will digress and not go on a rant on the differences of Warp and Star Wars hyperspace jumps)
But as said, chances of hitting anything, even at warp is very low, especially if you don't go though the planet orbit zones.
the asteroid belt here in Sol isn't the Empire Strikes back asteroid field density..
Tos warped in systems alot, even warp battles "In System"
Now the "Disco" Hyperspace jump from warp to stand still over a planet is annoying (will digress and not go on a rant on the differences of Warp and Star Wars hyperspace jumps)
But as said, chances of hitting anything, even at warp is very low, especially if you don't go though the planet orbit zones.
the asteroid belt here in Sol isn't the Empire Strikes back asteroid field density..
It is a matter of scale. The only way to hit something in there would be to aim at a place where ships have a justification for being; anywhere else, coming to within, say, ten meters would not be harmful in the slightest, and the odds of that would really be indistinguishable from zero.
And the place Kira and Dax are worried about doesn't sound like one of those. The fake Bashir is aiming at the local star, and is almost there already. Who would be flying between Bajor's orbit and the intercept location? If warping close to a star is bad for you, then nobody would want to voluntarily hobble oneself by sailing there when they could be going outward just as well.
We could plead coincidence and say that Bajor happened to lie between the station and the star at that exact time, of course...
Umm, it's either or. If (and when!) it was ignored, it wasn't followed. And conversely, there's no evidence of any sort of following outside this one instance in DS9, no mention of risk or hazard, no dialogue suggesting a slow start.
TOS "followed the rule" just as much as TNG did - that is, it had random episodes where Kirk didn't explicitly jump directly to warp. It's just that TOS was more vocal about it being standard to warp insystem (say, "Elaan of Troyius").
It's rather different from the made-up "no phasers at warp rule": TNG failed to show phasers at warp, but never suggested those would be bad in-universe, and all other incarnations of Trek showed phasers at warp and made it clear that those were good and standard in-universe. With insystem warp, TNG/DS9 didn't fail to show it happen, but conversely did suggest twice that it would be bad (implicitly with the slow chase through Sol in "BoBW" and explicitly with the banter in "By Inferno's Light"). Although of course it wasn't bad when it was done...
Timo Saloniemi
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