Warp drive and first contact (not the movie)

[Hatchet2k4]

Its been generally established that before the UFP decides to make first contact with a new species, they first need to establish FTL capability with warp drive, to prove they are advanced enough technologically to join the galactic community. While I agree with the idea in concept, I'm not sure that warp capability is the best measuring stick for that.

Warp drive requires extensive knowledge about subspace, and I have my doubts that it would be the first tech to arise from that knowledge. More likely subspace radio and more advanced sensors would come first. The energies required would be far less, and sending information FTL would seem easier than sending an entire ship! So if an unknown species can start to detect starships and can communicate with subspace frequencies, it seems more likely they would try to contact the UFP first.. Given that it seems like warp drive is too high a level to reach before initiating contact.

As an aside, was there ever a date, in canon or not, for when humans got subspace radio?

Ok this is somewhat rambling I suppose, but I was just curious what anyone else thought about the subject.

 

[thesovereignman]

Its been generally established that before the UFP decides to make first contact with a new species, they first need to establish FTL capability with warp drive, to prove they are advanced enough technologically to join the galactic community. While I agree with the idea in concept, I'm not sure that warp capability is the best measuring stick for that.

Warp drive requires extensive knowledge about subspace, and I have my doubts that it would be the first tech to arise from that knowledge. More likely subspace radio and more advanced sensors would come first. The energies required would be far less, and sending information FTL would seem easier than sending an entire ship! So if an unknown species can start to detect starships and can communicate with subspace frequencies, it seems more likely they would try to contact the UFP first.. Given that it seems like warp drive is too high a level to reach before initiating contact.

As an aside, was there ever a date, in canon or not, for when humans got subspace radio?

Ok this is somewhat rambling I suppose, but I was just curious what anyone else thought about the subject.

I would imagine that if an alien race contacted the UFP, then that would be a different story, but the UFP won't deliberately contact a race without them first having a warp drive

 

[T'Girl]

Archer's Enterprise had subspace radio when they left orbit. During TBoT, Spock stated that the peace treaty between Earth and the Romulans was negotiated by subspace radio.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think the idea behind using warp drive as a benchmark is that it usually is at the point a civilization is ready to become a starfaring society (it probably represents a civilization's willingness to contact off-world civilizations and their technological capability to make such a thing happen).

But any kind of benchmark is inherently unfair because not everyone can meet it.

In the case of the Federation's first contact policy, it was apparently decided that if a civilization hasn't progressed to point of developing FTL drive, then it still has some growing up to do, IMO...

 

[Anwar]

I think the idea is more that once they have Warp Drive, it's inevitable they'll meet other spacefaring species so they may as well just make contact then.

 

[The Castellan]

I think warp drive being a requirement is a crock of BS. Is the Federation going to have them on a leash like the 22nd century Vulcans did with Earth?

It's like someone saying to someone else, "Sorry, but you're not welcome to this party, since you either don't have a fancy degree or make $100,000 a year."

 

[Timo]

Vulcans had no real leash on the Earthlings once Earth invented warp. All sorts of interstellar interaction was obviously going on between Earth and the advanced cultures of assorted space aliens.

I agree with Anwar that the warp drive thing (which BTW is never mentioned onscreen) is merely a distinction that marks the end of any attempts at protecting the natives from the harsh world, and the beginning of their own interaction with said world.

I don't think subspace communications are easier to invent than warp drive, though. If that were true, we'd probably have heard of it already - everybody (and not just Sarjenka from "Pen Pals") would be eavesdropping on galactic communications and attending chatrooms and purchasing goods from gww.amazon.ufp.

Perhaps warp is always invented first because it is a crude application of the subspace field theory, and all refinements such as communications or sensors come decades or centuries later?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lazarus]

I think warp drive being a requirement is a crock of BS. Is the Federation going to have them on a leash like the 22nd century Vulcans did with Earth?

It's like someone saying to someone else, "Sorry, but you're not welcome to this party, since you either don't have a fancy degree or make $100,000 a year."

Or like not handing over car keys to twelve year old boys! Oh wait...

 

[barnaclelapse]

I think the idea behind using warp drive as a benchmark is that it usually is at the point a civilization is ready to become a starfaring society (it probably represents a civilization's willingness to contact off-world civilizations and their technological capability to make such a thing happen).

But any kind of benchmark is inherently unfair because not everyone can meet it.

In the case of the Federation's first contact policy, it was apparently decided that if a civilization hasn't progressed to point of developing FTL drive, then it still has some growing up to do, IMO...

Exactly. That's pretty much the same option I put together from all that.

It makes sense for there to be a benchmark, if only for storytelling purposes.

 

[The Castellan]

I think warp drive being a requirement is a crock of BS. Is the Federation going to have them on a leash like the 22nd century Vulcans did with Earth?

It's like someone saying to someone else, "Sorry, but you're not welcome to this party, since you either don't have a fancy degree or make $100,000 a year."

Or like not handing over car keys to twelve year old boys! Oh wait...

Might be an improvement, seeing how alot of the middle-aged drivers here in Southeast Michigan are like.

 

[Saturn0660]

purchasing goods from gww.amazon.ufp.

They have good deals on Self-Sealing-Stem-Bolts.

 

[Yug]

... the warp drive thing (which BTW is never mentioned onscreen)...

It has been mentioned on screen, most notably in the TNG episode "First Contact" (also not the movie). In fact the entire episode takes a decent look at the first contact protocals in Starfleet including warp drive capable civilizations. And seemed also to be the policy of the Vulcans as seen in Star Trek: First Contact (yes, the movie) as it's Cochrane's warp drive test of the Pheonix that raises the attention of a nearby Vulcan ship in the area at that time in Trek history.

 

[Timo]

Well, the exact wording is this:

Picard: "We've been monitoring your progress toward warp-drive capability. When a society reaches your level of technology and is clearly about to initiate warp travel, we feel the time is right for first contact. We prefer meeting like this, rather than a random confrontation in deep space."

It's a bit more vague than "you must have warp drive or we won't talk". Indeed, it seems to support the idea that the time of contact comes when it comes, that the UFP only makes itself known when it's inevitable that it will be revealed anyway within a few months or years.Development of warp drive is one of the things that can make the revelation inevitable. But there could be other things - and there must be, because Kirk was often openly contacting planets that had no technology to speak of.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Yug]

Well, the exact wording is this:

Picard: "We've been monitoring your progress toward warp-drive capability. When a society reaches your level of technology and is clearly about to initiate warp travel, we feel the time is right for first contact. We prefer meeting like this, rather than a random confrontation in deep space."

It's a bit more vague than "you must have warp drive or we won't talk". Indeed, it seems to support the idea that the time of contact comes when it comes, that the UFP only makes itself known when it's inevitable that it will be revealed anyway within a few months or years.Development of warp drive is one of the things that can make the revelation inevitable. But there could be other things - and there must be, because Kirk was often openly contacting planets that had no technology to speak of.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, I wouldn't say it's all that vague, seems rather cut and dry what the policy is Starfleet and the Federation adheres to regarding civilizations on the cusp of deep space exploration. Although, I don't think it's a matter of "we won't talk".

But you're right, it is a case by case basis. There would be plenty of other factors that would constitute first contact... but they seem mostly by happenstance in that degree. And the Prime Directive often kicks in at that point. It's also why Starfleet would never hand over warp drive tech to an already aware and friendly intellegent race that may not, on their own, develop such a concept for several hundred years. In order to not interfere with their development since it could result in dangerous consequences not only for Starfleet but the burgeoning culture itself. But like any blanket policy it's far less perfect in practice. Warp drive capability is, in my mind, an almost singular reason why Starfleet would purposely seek out that culture to 'specifically' let their existance be known and introduce themselves as part of a greater galactic community.

 

[T'Girl]

How does an aquatic species develop a warp drive? And if a warp drive is the prime benchmark, well can anyone say that first contacting the Klingons is a fine idea based solely upon their propulsion system? A new species readiness to be contacted should be a matter of cultural maturity and philosophical mindset, these new people could be living in a European renaissance or a Song Dynasty era and be ready for the opportunities for intellectual exchange and perhaps (careful) interstellar trade as well.

Another immature culture could have a brand new warp drive (maybe warp two) and not be a good candidate for any form of contact. If they live in a section of the galaxy with no nearby inhabited systems, the Federation might wait as long as possible to finally initiate first contact. Starfleet could covertly sabatoge a new cultures warp drive program. Remotely prevent a warp field from forming around a experimental ship, hack into computers and steer scientists down reasonable blind alleys. If a drone is used for the first warp flight, it could simply be "disappeared."

 

[The Castellan]

How does an aquatic species develop a warp drive? And if a warp drive is the prime benchmark, well can anyone say that first contacting the Klingons is a fine idea based solely upon their propulsion system? A new species readiness to be contacted should be a matter of cultural maturity and philosophical mindset, these new people could be living in a European renaissance or a Song Dynasty era and be ready for the opportunities for intellectual exchange and perhaps (careful) interstellar trade as well.

Another immature culture could have a brand new warp drive (maybe warp two) and not be a good candidate for any form of contact. If they live in a section of the galaxy with no nearby inhabited systems, the Federation might wait as long as possible to finally initiate first contact. Starfleet could covertly sabatoge a new cultures warp drive program. Remotely prevent a warp field from forming around a experimental ship, hack into computers and steer scientists down reasonable blind alleys. If a drone is used for the first warp flight, it could simply be "disappeared."

It's alot like if Starfleet encountered Skaro...The Daleks have FTL propulsion AND able to perform time travel. Does that make THEM a better race to encounter than say, some race on a backwater world that did not make warp drive?

And the second part...I dunno...it's like Big Oil going after those people who create Zero-point energy or near free energy devices by either bribing them, threatening them or simply having them in an 'accident'. If Starfleet's got such a hard-on for the PD, then doing this sorta of action by deliberatly holdingthem back, is like the above statement with Big Oil doing similer so they can keep making money.

And if I were the ship captain assigned to that, I'd take off my com badge, resign and tell the big wigs where they can stick said com-badge....one point at a time.

 

[C.E. Evans]

How does an aquatic species develop a warp drive?

Probably in underwater facilities at first. Any aquatic species interested in space travel would really have to want to travel beyond their oceans and then go about developing the means to do so.

And if a warp drive is the prime benchmark, well can anyone say that first contacting the Klingons is a fine idea based solely upon their propulsion system? A new species readiness to be contacted should be a matter of cultural maturity and philosophical mindset, these new people could be living in a European renaissance or a Song Dynasty era and be ready for the opportunities for intellectual exchange and perhaps (careful) interstellar trade as well.

I actually think the development of warp drive is a good barometer for a civilization's cultural maturity and philosophical mindset because it means that society has reached a point where it wants (and has the capacity) to see what lies beyond their world...and I think that's all there is to it myself. While the Federation's first contact policy and Starfleet's Prime Directive frequently intertwine in regards to pre-warp civilizations, I think it basically boils down to allowing a civilization joining the larger galactic community by their own means.

Another immature culture could have a brand new warp drive (maybe warp two) and not be a good candidate for any form of contact.

I think any civilization that has developed warp drive is mature enough for first contact. It's no small hurdle to leap over, IMO, and usually represents a society that has progressed beyond its industrial age and well into its own space age.

Now, if a civilization has achieved warp drive and is inherently hostile or still feudal, then they're simply recognized as such and the Federation will either limit or avoid contact with them in the same way they do the Romulans or any number of hostile civilizations in the Quadrant.

If they live in a section of the galaxy with no nearby inhabited systems, the Federation might wait as long as possible to finally initiate first contact. Starfleet could covertly sabatoge a new cultures warp drive program. Remotely prevent a warp field from forming around a experimental ship, hack into computers and steer scientists down reasonable blind alleys. If a drone is used for the first warp flight, it could simply be "disappeared."

Of course, that's a dirty Section 31 kind of thing but I don't think that's the policy for Starfleet proper. And even for Section 31 to be involved, that civilization has to represent (or be involved with) a potential threat to Federation security.

 

[T'Girl]

How does an aquatic species develop a warp drive?

I'll admit I was thinking solely of dolphins with that statement, while their fore fins contain all the bones of a Human hand, dolphins lack the means to manipulate their environment.

I think any civilization that has developed warp drive is mature enough for first contact. It's no small hurdle to leap over, IMO, and usually represents a society that has progressed beyond its industrial age and well into its own space age.

But having a warp drive is just a technological achivement, a propulsion system. And it doesn't indicate that the entire planetary society has advanced. Consider if the benchmark wasn't a warp drive but the first flight by beings to an other world in their star system. For Humans this happen forty years ago, and all Humans didn't do it, it was a single nation-state, on a very divided world. If we were to have a first warp flight today, carried out by say the Americans, who would the Federation contact? Just America and no one else? Contact the UN (hope not), how would the Federation handle it?


T'Girl

 

[Anwar]

Like I said, warp drive isn't always a sign of cultural maturity. It just marks a point wherein contact is now inevitable so the Feds figure they may as well make it as peaceful as possible.

 

[KottenFutz]

I don't think warp drive capability is really a judgment of a society in the least. Merely a sign that Starfleet may bump into these folks in space soon and it's a kin to saying, "Welcome to the neighborhood, here's a basket of coupons and muffins. Watch out for the Klingon family down the street, they never mow their lawn and if you lose a football in their yard they'll keep it. The Orions across the way like to have a lot of parties, but stay away from the daughter, she's trouble. The Vulcans up the block are good neighbors and mostly keep to themselves, but will call the cops if your have your music up too loud..."

A society can advance in art and culture, be peacful and brilliant, but may have no interest in exploring space and may never develop warp drive... not to say that they don't belong in the Federation, maybe they just would rather not, maybe they're even smarter than that. So Starfleet will probally find it best to just leave them be and perhaps study their culture from afar and keep hidden. Besides, i'm not sure how much the Federation meddles in the personal business of any given planet (although I'm sure it's had it's moments... like the modern UN) The Federation is mostly about keeping the peace in space, and hopefully serves only in that function.

It's possible that the Federation may decide that a advanced society is "mature" enough to handle the idea of other life in the universe, but are still pre warp, and may initiate first contact on the basis. That would require a judgment call I would think.

Where as, an alien society that has harnessed the power of warp flight may not be of "maturity" to deal with the politics of the modern galactic neigborhood but Starfleet will still need to initiate contact soley on the idea that it's inevitable they will be a presence in the known galaxy. What goes on from that point remains to be seen.

Although, one could consider that the only reason for an alien culture wanting to develop warp drive in the first place is on the notion to learn and explore, and therfore it is usually a good sign that the race is ready to seek out other forms of life, and would welcome first contact.

The episode discussed of TNG "First Contact" is quite interesting as it depicts a society capable of creating warp technology, but in the end, judges themselves "not ready" based on the covert visitations of Starfleet. While some in high station are open enough to accept what the'll find out in the galaxy, the majority of the populace may not be, and that tells the tale.