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You do know that all IRL Modern AirLiner Auto-Pilots are just flying between pre-programmed Way-Points, right?
There's not much logic in there other than fly between Way-Point A,B,C,D,etc,...
Anytime there's a serious situation, the pilots need to get involved.
Yes, but what's considered 'complicated' to us in regards to Trek starships using navigation, Warp strafing or even their warp bubble to damage another ship (especially for course adjustments on the fly to make precision strikes) is likely a non-issues for a superluminal computer (after all, targeting sensors are used for precision anyway, and sensors in general are subspace based with the level of detail frequently down to the subatomic).
In essence, making those adjustments would likely be considered in the 23rd and 24th century as simple as auto-pilot is today and is in all likelihood part of normal starship operations.
Only in the 22nd century would it likely be more valid that more stuff would have to be manual, because these were early days of Warp travel for humanity, and they were in the process of developing maneouvers and tactics that would eventually be automated.
Fair enough, so what do you suggest? Beams extended by the Warp Field so that it can function normally?
Beams coated in a Warp Field like the Warp Sustainers on a Torpedo?
Well in the case of TNG/DS9/ENT/VOY beams extended by some annular confinement beam fits within their established capabilities. If you can beam people through a confinement beam then pushing a phaser or disruptor beam through it seems to be the next logical application. This would limit the range quite a bit while at warp to how far you can extend it. Voyager using it to the limit of the transporter range would give it a possible 40,000 Km range.
In TOS, I think their ship phasers were already FTL but subject to the same forces that slowed their warp engines in system vs outside of a system. I don't believe this will ever be recreated again, given how differently things worked in SNW when they did their version of "Balance of Terror".
As to the newer series, I'm just on a wait and see until each series is completed or canceled to form an opinion.
So what's your opinion, should they bring back Long-Distance FTL beam battles, or should they stick with the TNG limitations?
What's your personal feelings about it?
Personally it would be nice to see long distance FTL was brought back as it differentiated Star Trek from most other scifi series but that will probably never happen.
So, IYO, should the distortions be implemented at all, or just limited to the Kelvin-verse?
If we needed a consistent answer to apply to all future portrayals of ST, regardless of which section of the Trek Multi-Verse we're in.
There appears to be two distinct portrayals for now. Kelvinverse with the curving beams at close-range through the distortion and new era Lower Decks/Prodigy with straight beams at relatively close range.
I don't think you'll have an answer that is applicable to all of Star Trek.
I don't think I've ever seen ships engaging each other while in hyperspace. The closest we've ever seen combat with hyperspace was in "The Last Jedi" when Holdo jumps her ship into the pursuing enemy capital ship. In the cartoon series ships in hyperspace are visible to one another and in Ahsoka or was it The Mandalorian? ships could see other hyperspace creatures moving through it although it is unknown whether they can attack each other.
Out of curiosity I googled for other scifi series that have battles while moving FTL. There were plenty of series that had FTL travel to get in range for STL combat but it was rare for a series to have any FTL combat.
Well in the case of TNG/DS9/ENT/VOY beams extended by some annular confinement beam fits within their established capabilities. If you can beam people through a confinement beam then pushing a phaser or disruptor beam through it seems to be the next logical application. This would limit the range quite a bit while at warp to how far you can extend it. Voyager using it to the limit of the transporter range would give it a possible 40,000 Km range.
In TOS, I think their ship phasers were already FTL but subject to the same forces that slowed their warp engines in system vs outside of a system. I don't believe this will ever be recreated again, given how differently things worked in SNW when they did their version of "Balance of Terror".
But their version of "Balance of Terror" operated quite differently in how they approached the cloaked vessel.
Also, the USS Farragut that James T. Kirk was on didn't have ANY Aft Facing Weaponry AT ALL.
Kirk ordered "Attack Pattern Tiberius 4" & had to Barrel Role to StarBoard and push the nose down hard simultaneously before doing a "Loop De Loop" to fire back.
During all that time, having "Aft Facing" Weaponry would've been nice.
I'm glad that future StarShips within the UFP seemed to have remedied that design flaw.
Personally it would be nice to see long distance FTL was brought back as it differentiated Star Trek from most other scifi series but that will probably never happen.
There appears to be two distinct portrayals for now. Kelvinverse with the curving beams at close-range through the distortion and new era Lower Decks/Prodigy with straight beams at relatively close range.
I don't think you'll have an answer that is applicable to all of Star Trek.
I don't think I've ever seen ships engaging each other while in hyperspace. The closest we've ever seen combat with hyperspace was in "The Last Jedi" when Holdo jumps her ship into the pursuing enemy capital ship.
In the cartoon series ships in hyperspace are visible to one another and in Ahsoka or was it The Mandalorian? ships could see other hyperspace creatures moving through it although it is unknown whether they can attack each other.
I'm glad I got to see long range combat in "The Expanse", hopefully that helps give more credence to "Long Range Combat" depecited accurately in more Sci-Fi along with Babylon 5's 'Battle of Gorash 7'
Out of curiosity I googled for other scifi series that have battles while moving FTL. There were plenty of series that had FTL travel to get in range for STL combat but it was rare for a series to have any FTL combat.
There are quite a few differences (and I'm ignoring the aesthetics)...
TOS Enterprise is already able to track the Romulan's movement without any extra tech work. SNW Enterprise required Spock to come up with using microlensing to track the Romulan.
TOS Enterprise directly picks up the Romulan's brief transmission. SNW Enterprise picks up a reflection of the Romulan's transmission bounced off of the comet in their path.
TOS Enterprise can fire her phasers in "proximity blast" mode. SNW Enterprise and Farragut's phasers required direct hits.
TOS Enterprise is fast enough to go to warp speed in reverse and get some distance before the plasma torpedo hits them. SNW Farragut actually had a chance to get some distance when Pike ordered, "Kirk, get out of there!" Instead Kirk disobeyed and turned to engage. We know the SNW Enterprise can jump to warp to escape a tangential shot because they did that at the very end of the episode to escape the Romulan fleet but maybe they don't have a warp reverse.
SNW shows something that I think I also saw in Discovery. The SNW Enterprise's "perimeter alert" seems to show that they can see where the Romulan ships are going to drop out of warp. This seems to point to Star Trek switching to warp acting like wormholes or warp tunnels with an end point.
SNW Kirk brings back a fleet of remote-controlled warp capable ships. He uses those ships to block fire to the Enterprise. But he doesn't use them to warp kamikaze the Romulan fleet.
SNW had an amazing number of phaser and torpedo misses even when no one was cloaked, LOL.
TOS Enterprise uses warp alot to attack and keep her distance. SNW kept to no warp for the majority of the episode.
Also, the USS Farragut that James T. Kirk was on didn't have ANY Aft Facing Weaponry AT ALL.
Kirk ordered "Attack Pattern Tiberius 4" & had to Barrel Role to StarBoard and push the nose down hard simultaneously before doing a "Loop De Loop" to fire back.
During all that time, having "Aft Facing" Weaponry would've been nice.
I'm glad that future StarShips within the UFP seemed to have remedied that design flaw.
Actually, when SNW Kirk ordered "Attack Pattern Tiberius 4" Farragut pitches down, dives and banks to her right but never does anything like a barrel roll. When Kirk orders "Get behind them" the ship then pitches up in her vertical into a half loop. Either the helmsman wasn't very good or Kirk seriously misjudged the distance but Farragut did the opposite of "getting behind them" and instead went nose to nose with the Romulan. If the order was correctly followed the Farragut should of went into a wide arc to get behind them.
Oddly, when SNW Kirk finally ordered the Farragut to fire, phaser blasts were coming only from their ventral weapons which went out into open space before the ship came nose to nose. No dorsal weapons fired (did they not have dorsal weapons like the SNW Enterprise has?) Even the TOS Enterprise had aft phaser weapons.
There are quite a few differences (and I'm ignoring the aesthetics)...
TOS Enterprise is already able to track the Romulan's movement without any extra tech work. SNW Enterprise required Spock to come up with using microlensing to track the Romulan.
TOS Enterprise directly picks up the Romulan's brief transmission. SNW Enterprise picks up a reflection of the Romulan's transmission bounced off of the comet in their path.
TOS Enterprise is fast enough to go to warp speed in reverse and get some distance before the plasma torpedo hits them. SNW Farragut actually had a chance to get some distance when Pike ordered, "Kirk, get out of there!" Instead Kirk disobeyed and turned to engage. We know the SNW Enterprise can jump to warp to escape a tangential shot because they did that at the very end of the episode to escape the Romulan fleet but maybe they don't have a warp reverse.
SNW shows something that I think I also saw in Discovery. The SNW Enterprise's "perimeter alert" seems to show that they can see where the Romulan ships are going to drop out of warp. This seems to point to Star Trek switching to warp acting like wormholes or warp tunnels with an end point.
SNW Kirk brings back a fleet of remote-controlled warp capable ships. He uses those ships to block fire to the Enterprise. But he doesn't use them to warp kamikaze the Romulan fleet.
Which I was surprised at when I watched this version of "Balance of Terror" the first time.
Kirk could've easily warped out and turned back around to warp back in via a Micro-Warp Jump.
Actually, when SNW Kirk ordered "Attack Pattern Tiberius 4" Farragut pitches down, dives and banks to her right but never does anything like a barrel roll. When Kirk orders "Get behind them" the ship then pitches up in her vertical into a half loop. Either the helmsman wasn't very good or Kirk seriously misjudged the distance but Farragut did the opposite of "getting behind them" and instead went nose to nose with the Romulan. If the order was correctly followed the Farragut should of went into a wide arc to get behind them.
You're right about the banking instead of Barrel Rolling. I couldn't think of the proper term during a late night post where I was pretty tired. Obviously the helmsman screwed up some-how.
Oddly, when SNW Kirk finally ordered the Farragut to fire, phaser blasts were coming only from their ventral weapons which went out into open space before the ship came nose to nose. No dorsal weapons fired (did they not have dorsal weapons like the SNW Enterprise has?) Even the TOS Enterprise had aft phaser weapons.
Is it me, or is the Farragut "Poorly Designed" for a basic ship. "Ventral ONLY weaponry facing foreward".
It's like StarFleet half-assed this ship and put it into commission.
No Dorsal Weapons on the Foreward Arc
No Aft Facing Weaponry of any kind.
We're no Klingons, we take pride in having a Weapons Systems that can cover a 360° Spherical Arc.
Even if the Majority of Weapons Fire covers mostly the Foreward and side arcs with a significantly weaker aft arc.
But theoretically, you're moving space around you with the Warp Drive, you're not moving the vessel faster at STL, your vessel would have no extra Kinetic Energy compared to standing still.
Wouldn't this be closer to a low speed vehicle crash instead of a high speed vehicle crash at STL?
Ergo, the "Belly Flopping" onto each other like Sumos or a Pro Wrestler doing a Frog Splash.
Possibly. The SNW outpost's sensors do manage to pick up the Romulan right before it decloaks to fire. It seems that in SNW they are not too surprised by the Romulan's cloaking device although the method to track them is novel by looking for microlensing from the "detectable gravitational presence". TOS doesn't detail how their motion sensor is detecting and tracking the Romulan.
Don't know. Although now thinking about it, those Federation mining ships probably would have had safety programming that would prevent ramming into another ship or planet or inhabited object, etc. Kirk might have been able to command them up to a point but could not override any safety programming. So this might not have been a good example.
But theoretically, you're moving space around you with the Warp Drive, you're not moving the vessel faster at STL, your vessel would have no extra Kinetic Energy compared to standing still.
Wouldn't this be closer to a low speed vehicle crash instead of a high speed vehicle crash at STL?
Ergo, the "Belly Flopping" onto each other like Sumos or a Pro Wrestler doing a Frog Splash.
I think in "BoBW" it might have been possible as they also had other warp technology like the Solition wave that was capable of damaging or destroying what they hit through shearing stress.
Possibly. The SNW outpost's sensors do manage to pick up the Romulan right before it decloaks to fire. It seems that in SNW they are not too surprised by the Romulan's cloaking device although the method to track them is novel by looking for microlensing from the "detectable gravitational presence". TOS doesn't detail how their motion sensor is detecting and tracking the Romulan.
Don't know. Although now thinking about it, those Federation mining ships probably would have had safety programming that would prevent ramming into another ship or planet or inhabited object, etc. Kirk might have been able to command them up to a point but could not override any safety programming. So this might not have been a good example.
I think in "BoBW" it might have been possible as they also had other warp technology like the Solition wave that was capable of damaging or destroying what they hit through shearing stress.
The Soliton Wave was energy that was "Super Efficient" for powering the "Soliton Wave Rider's" Warp Engines.
It literally transferred energy from the Soliton Wave to it's own Warp Nacelles to power the Warp Field and keep pace with the Soliton Wave & continually siphon the Soliton Energy to keep the Warp Field alive.
After the power signature of the wave began fluctuating, the ship's warp field destabilized.
Sadly it seems the Test Machine didn't have a method to regulate the power intake like a UPS (UnInterruptible Power Supply)
The Soliton Wave itself is capable of FTL as well.
The fact that Geordi stated that the Solitons are 98% efficient in transfering energy to power the Warp Nacelles and that's 450% more energy efficient than the Enterprise-D's Warp Nacelle should be damning evidence that using raw EPS to power the Warp Nacelles is highly "In-Efficient" and that they need to find a efficient way to convert the EPS into Soliton Energy to power the Warp Nacelles so that you don't waste your energy.
That comes out to Enterprise-D having 21.778% Energy Conversion Efficiency from EPS to Warp Coil powering the Warp Fields.
For Reference, ICE (Internal Combustion Engines) currently can convert anywhere between 25-40% of the chemical energy with future technology updates to allow it to push past 50% conversion efficiency easily.
The Theoretical Maximum Conversion Efficiency for ICE is 83% based on the Carnot Theorem. So we have a ways to go before we Min/Max ICE technology.
We know from Data's statement that the Enterprise-D can generate a staggering 12.75 EW of Power from it's M/A-M reactor.
The fact that there is a facility that can easily create a Soliton Wave to travel in space means there is methods to create it, the question is how efficient will it be to convert the EPS energy into Soliton Energy before shunting it into the Warp Nacelles would be once they miniaturize the EPS-Soliton Energy Convertor before shunting it to the Warp Coils inside the Warp Nacelles.
NOTE: My Warp Factor Scale 3.0 = TNG Era Warp Factor Scale 2.0 w/o the hand drawn curve to infinity after Warp 9. I just let the original formula run to infinity.
For reference, Wf 9.9 on the TNG scale, according to Tom Paris, comes out to Wf 20 on my scale.
The USS Equinox's enhanced Warp Drive using Nucleogenic Energy from the dead interdimensional Aliens was Wf 43 on my scale.
SubSpace Vortex Drives seen in ST:ENT that were used by the Xindi are Wf 73 on my scale.
The Millenium Falcon's HyperDrive is Wf of 122.X on my scale.
Quantum SlipStream (Version 1) is at Wf 145 on my scale
Quantum SlipStream (Version 2) {w/ Consumable Benamite Crystals} is at Wf 825 on my scale.
If the USS Discovery could cruise at Wf 57-58 indefinitely as long as it had fuel & enough Dilithium Crystals on my Wf Version 3.0 scale
This would've been right before when USS Discovery traveled out to the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy and crossed the Galactic Barrier.
Discovery can easily cover 712,700.835189967 ly in < 1.0 Gregorian years.
Discovery would've been home in < 1 year, regardless of where the hole in the Galactic Barrier was located at on the Edge of the Milky Way Galaxy.
Luckily 10C gave them a short cut so they didn't have to take the long way home.
The DASH (Displacement-Activated Spore-Hub) Drive:
- Warp Factor: 635 (633-657) | 692 - 3311 depending on how far you travel
Personally it would be nice to see long distance FTL was brought back as it differentiated Star Trek from most other scifi series but that will probably never happen.
Seconded. Trek went from warp battles as standard (and heaven help you if you lost warp engines) to inventing an expensive excuse for sublight, short-range combat (the Mutara Nebula) to most battles being well within visual range and at impulse, because it looked kewl. One can invent rationales for this, but it is disappointing that it needs to be done.
Another thing that gets lost is warp strafing. Ship-to-ship it might not be that meaningful, but I can't imagine that the Dominion/Cardassian fleet trying to take DS9 would've been worse off had they all gone on a computer-coordinated multi-vector warp strafing attack against the station, wearing down its defenses. See: https://st-v-sw.net/STSWwarpturn.html
As for differentiating Trek from other series, I think Blake's 7's about the only other I know of with FTL combat . . . the pilot had a neat scene of a vessel unable to detect the combatants of an FTL battle, just detonations all around.
I suspect not. Other than Riker's last-ditch plan as the Borg approached Earth, we've never seen any indication of that, and plenty of indications it is not viable. I've collected those here:
I suspect not. Other than Riker's last-ditch plan as the Borg approached Earth, we've never seen any indication of that, and plenty of indications it is not viable. I've collected those here:
That seems to be the case. This is helpful, as well . . . imagine any number of mental issues afflicting someone with a warp-driven craft. A 100-tonne shuttlecraft at .5c without any mass-lightening effect would be a potential missile of kinetic energy yield of 260 gigatons, if I've done my math correctly, and warp drive, if it were to increase 'usable' kinetic energy, only makes that worse.
To be sure, any nut with a shuttlecraft could be a city-killer no matter what, but at least they can't blast a whole region.
That seems to be the case. This is helpful, as well . . . imagine any number of mental issues afflicting someone with a warp-driven craft. A 100-tonne shuttlecraft at .5c without any mass-lightening effect would be a potential missile of kinetic energy yield of 260 gigatons, if I've done my math correctly, and warp drive, if it were to increase 'usable' kinetic energy, only makes that worse.
To be sure, any nut with a shuttlecraft could be a city-killer no matter what, but at least they can't blast a whole region.
