Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!
You're assuming we're using the exact same sensors for the same thing. I've stated before that sensors for tracking ship position that is similar to RADAR isn't the same sensor units you would be using for calculating Warp Field Harmonics along with any perturbances.
Yes, we know the location, velocity, and trajectory. That doesn't factor in the effects of the Warp Field of the target for "long range beam combat".
But I've stated before that Warp Fields themselves have a way of distorting the angles of beams if fired upon the wrong angle or out of a bad angle on your side if you're at great distance.
That's the entire point of knowing the details of the enemies warp field and how it works. StarShips traveling at FTL via traditional Warp Drive will warp 'Local Space' itself; that inadvertently works as a form of defense against incoming beam projectiles based on what angle you hit the targeted ship at.
Actually it does. We know the characteristics of our sensor beam and since we are already tracking the target with it we would know what compensations are being applied to account for various distortions to maintain that track. You know the characteristics of your energy weapon. It would be trivial to apply the necessary corrections to the energy weapon (if necessary) to fire at the target.
I'm arguing that you need to be closer so that you can calculate the opponents Warp Field details to calculate their Distortion/Refraction Index. Which is largely a pointless operation when you can easily just get close to the enemy or force them into a STL battle.
Ships at FTL, using Warp Drive, have a somewhat natural defense against beam weapons at long range, the distortion of local space would (deflect / distort / curve) incoming beams away.
Why doesn't it matter? If they have some protective attributes as you claim then everything counts in battle. This seems inconsistent with your argument.
"Once More Unto The Breach" was Kor commanding a BOP on a suicide run to delay the pursuing 10 Jem'hedar ships for a minimum of 10 minutes to allow the BOPs to continue to escape at warp to reach Defiant and reinforcements. Forcing them into STL was not a tactic to make combat easier.
Actually it does. We know the characteristics of our sensor beam and since we are already tracking the target with it we would know what compensations are being applied to account for various distortions to maintain that track. You know the characteristics of your energy weapon. It would be trivial to apply the necessary corrections to the energy weapon (if necessary) to fire at the target.
And I've stated before, that there doesn't need to be compensations for FTL equivalent RADAR, and that there is no "Compensating" so you can magically scan the details of their warp field at a distance.
The sensors platform you use for long distance target tracking is completely different from the sensor systems that you would use for engineering testing/refinement of warp fields that are nearby.
You can track the target, throw in random beam fire, and watch them get deflected off the warp field because you don't know what to correct for, the only way to know is with a close up engineering level scan. At that point, you're in a StarShip Equivalent of a Knife Fight in a Phone Booth.
To my knowledge, all long distance combat has been at STL speeds, we haven't seen long distance FTL combat on screen in the TNG + newer era's.
But I'm basing the deflection off the natural way Warp Drive is supposed to bend space to propel, there's frontal section that pulls space closer while the aft end of the warp bubble pushes space away.
Those two areas around a vessel traveling foreward would have severe Spatial/Gravimetric distortions of our Space/Time continuum.
In most other Sci-Fi media, when you warp space or have the ability to severely bend EM fields, you can deflect areas of space around you, ergo Kinetic / Energy beams would deflect or get moved away from the target.
In the Gundam Franchise the UC universe has the I-Field used as a form of "Beam Deflector".
In Kiddy Grade Anime, when the 'La Muse' takes off from the linear accelerator, by activating it's Inertial Drive, the gravity around the vessel is bent, ergo deflecting Kinetic Shells / Missiles chasing after it.
In other shows, Warping Space has a tendency to deflect beam or kinetic attacks depending on mass/size of objects it's affecting.
Given how the Alcubierre Drive principle is based on Pulling sapce towards and Pushing from the aft, it effectively severely warps space around the Warp Bubble at a very fast rate, ergo should have severe effects when objects comes towards it, especially objects in the form of Beam weaponry that can be manipulated by Gravity/EM Fields.
Why doesn't it matter? If they have some protective attributes as you claim then everything counts in battle. This seems inconsistent with your argument.
Your Ships Warp Field + the Target Vessels Warp Field at close range provide enough of a stable space zone that the distance gap where the Warp Field Distortion wouldn't really significantly affect the travel of the particle beams. Especially given how large the target vessel's silhouette will become. Any deviation would be relatively minor compared to having the beam travel distances in the (100's - 300,000) km range.
At those vast distances, the Warping of Space is strong enough that it's going to significantly deviate your beam weapons travel path, ergo not letting it hit or sending it off to some other vector.
That's why vessels will need to get "Up Close & Personal". The longer distance your beams have to travel, the more Distortion Field it has to travel through, the greater the range, the greater the time / distance covered that it will get bent off it's intended path. At close ranges, the time to travel is so short, that any deviation is within "Margin of Error" and won't really hurt since your target has become quite large and any distortion will only shift your beam's trajectory off by mm or inches.
Think of the IRL analog when it comes to long distance shooting, wind, curvature of Earth, Gravity, all become severe factors when shooting at long range, even various minor gusts of wind can send your bullet off the intended trajectory to the target. The same would come with Warping Space from the Fore of a vessels Warp Field, to the Aft end of the Warp Field.
Given how little mass Particle Beams have for each individual particle, and how weak their cohesion is, it would be relatively easy to throw them off target given enough space for the Beam Weaponry to traverse through. Similar to how almost all vessels need a Navigational Deflector to push larger/heavier objects away from the ships intended path of travel when going to Warp Speeds.
"Once More Unto The Breach" was Kor commanding a BOP on a suicide run to delay the pursuing 10 Jem'hedar ships for a minimum of 10 minutes to allow the BOPs to continue to escape at warp to reach Defiant and reinforcements. Forcing them into STL was not a tactic to make combat easier.
It was a Tactic to preserve Ships & Lives for the Big "Over-All Strategic Picture" for the War Effort while preserving Intel and letting the Allies know their missions succeeded.
Especially given how fast Jem'Hadar can breed new Soldiers & Build Ships. Maintaining Lives / Ships becomes VERY critical to the war effort.
And I've stated before, that there doesn't need to be compensations for FTL equivalent RADAR, and that there is no "Compensating" so you can magically scan the details of their warp field at a distance.
Why? Even IRL RADAR does compensation for attenuation, diffraction and refraction in the atmosphere. Why can't Star Trek's sensors do the same for warp fields and other cosmic interference since ships at warp are able to track other ships at warp?
The sensors platform you use for long distance target tracking is completely different from the sensor systems that you would use for engineering testing/refinement of warp fields that are nearby.
You can track the target, throw in random beam fire, and watch them get deflected off the warp field because you don't know what to correct for, the only way to know is with a close up engineering level scan. At that point, you're in a StarShip Equivalent of a Knife Fight in a Phone Booth.
Not all long distance combat are at STL. There is the Voyager episode, "Basics". This has the more primitive Kazons at STL firing torpedoes at an approaching Voyager traveling at warp speed beyond 10,000 Km. Janeway explicitly orders Paris not to return fire while they are still at warp to conserve torpedoes.
Another Voyager episode, "Flashback", had Klingon Battlecruisers hitting the Excelsior at long range with torpedoes while at warp. You cannot see the chasing battlecruisers in the VFX shot.
As far as the newer eras having FTL combat I'm not so sure if they can even do long-range as it looks alot like ships are flying in a warp tunnel which constrains them to a very narrow volume of space to fight in. Both Lower Decks and Star Trek Into Darkness show ships being knocked out of warp by moving laterally out of the walls of a "warp tunnel" and getting dumped to STL.
But I'm basing the deflection off the natural way Warp Drive is supposed to bend space to propel, there's frontal section that pulls space closer while the aft end of the warp bubble pushes space away.
Those two areas around a vessel traveling foreward would have severe Spatial/Gravimetric distortions of our Space/Time continuum.
In most other Sci-Fi media, when you warp space or have the ability to severely bend EM fields, you can deflect areas of space around you, ergo Kinetic / Energy beams would deflect or get moved away from the target.
In the Gundam Franchise the UC universe has the I-Field used as a form of "Beam Deflector".
In Kiddy Grade Anime, when the 'La Muse' takes off from the linear accelerator, by activating it's Inertial Drive, the gravity around the vessel is bent, ergo deflecting Kinetic Shells / Missiles chasing after it.
In other shows, Warping Space has a tendency to deflect beam or kinetic attacks depending on mass/size of objects it's affecting.
Given how the Alcubierre Drive principle is based on Pulling sapce towards and Pushing from the aft, it effectively severely warps space around the Warp Bubble at a very fast rate, ergo should have severe effects when objects comes towards it, especially objects in the form of Beam weaponry that can be manipulated by Gravity/EM Fields.
Your Ships Warp Field + the Target Vessels Warp Field at close range provide enough of a stable space zone that the distance gap where the Warp Field Distortion wouldn't really significantly affect the travel of the particle beams. Especially given how large the target vessel's silhouette will become. Any deviation would be relatively minor compared to having the beam travel distances in the (100's - 300,000) km range.
At those vast distances, the Warping of Space is strong enough that it's going to significantly deviate your beam weapons travel path, ergo not letting it hit or sending it off to some other vector.
That's why vessels will need to get "Up Close & Personal". The longer distance your beams have to travel, the more Distortion Field it has to travel through, the greater the range, the greater the time / distance covered that it will get bent off it's intended path.
If warp fields provided this type of protection there would be no need for deflector shields.
More importantly, if this deviation/distortion exists it should be present with all energies reaching (or not reaching) the target ship. Ship's sensor beams are not affected as they can maintain locks. What examples are there of this deflection? (Sounds suspiciously like a deflector shield which needs to be turned on
At close ranges, the time to travel is so short, that any deviation is within "Margin of Error" and won't really hurt since your target has become quite large and any distortion will only shift your beam's trajectory off by mm or inches.
At close range and at long range the size of your target never changes relative to your energy beam. If this deviation results in a hit at close range then it will result in a hit at long range. Or in simpler terms, your argument that warp fields deflect energy weapons would make no difference at any range even if it were true...
Think of the IRL analog when it comes to long distance shooting, wind, curvature of Earth, Gravity, all become severe factors when shooting at long range, even various minor gusts of wind can send your bullet off the intended trajectory to the target.
You do realize that in Star Trek that in order for their transporters and FTL sensors to work the accuracy, precision and computational power must all be present to make it happen. These factors you claim that are a problem would be child's play for weapons.
Given how little mass Particle Beams have for each individual particle, and how weak their cohesion is, it would be relatively easy to throw them off target given enough space for the Beam Weaponry to traverse through. Similar to how almost all vessels need a Navigational Deflector to push larger/heavier objects away from the ships intended path of travel when going to Warp Speeds.
I would argue that the energy in a weapon energy beam is significantly greater than a navigational hazard otherwise there would be no need for tactical deflector shields.
Your argument would make more sense if you claimed that weapon beams naturally diffracted or dispersed with distance and at long range become ineffective due to lack of energy hitting the target.
It was a Tactic to preserve Ships & Lives for the Big "Over-All Strategic Picture" for the War Effort while preserving Intel and letting the Allies know their missions succeeded.
Especially given how fast Jem'Hadar can breed new Soldiers & Build Ships. Maintaining Lives / Ships becomes VERY critical to the war effort.
Ships at FTL, using Warp Drive, have a somewhat natural defense against beam weapons at long range, the distortion of local space would (deflect / distort / curve) incoming beams away.
Ergo short of knowing what you're dealing with on the opponents end for their warp field
1) it becomes either "Random luck" and you spam beam fire semi randomly and hope something hits or enters a weak spot in the Warp Field
2) You can just get up close & personal, then attack each other at close range, distortions don't matter when you're that freaking close. 3) Force them into STL like Worf did with 10x Jem'Hadar Fighters and fight them in normal space.
2 out of the 3 scenarios are far easier to execute and more reliable, there's almost no reason to ever attempt scenario #1 and fight at long distance while at Warp Speeds.
Why? Even IRL RADAR does compensation for attenuation, diffraction and refraction in the atmosphere. Why can't Star Trek's sensors do the same for warp fields and other cosmic interference since ships at warp are able to track other ships at warp?
When you scan a target at long range with RADAR, the technology you use is vastly different from scanning objects like engine output in a test rig or flying behind them and scanning their emissions.
Same with scanning the human body, different phenomena/target objects to scan need different tech / scanning resolutions.
Any changes applied to Super-Luminal equivalent of RADAR or FTL RADAR wouldn't have any bearings on affecting weapon deflections.
The Amount of Energy and type of energy you get from FTL RADAR is vastly different from Beams flying about and having to cross multiple mediums and encountering the opponents Warp Field before hitting their shields.
There is no canon example within ST, but I also haven't seen or don't remember FTL battles using Beams at long ranges.
All my memories of FTL battles are with Torpedoes or at super close range with Beam Weaponry.
I'm basing my theory off of how the Warp Drive should be working.
Not all long distance combat are at STL. There is the Voyager episode, "Basics". This has the more primitive Kazons at STL firing torpedoes at an approaching Voyager traveling at warp speed beyond 10,000 Km. Janeway explicitly orders Paris not to return fire while they are still at warp to conserve torpedoes.
Another Voyager episode, "Flashback", had Klingon Battlecruisers hitting the Excelsior at long range with torpedoes while at warp. You cannot see the chasing battlecruisers in the VFX shot.
As far as the newer eras having FTL combat I'm not so sure if they can even do long-range as it looks alot like ships are flying in a warp tunnel which constrains them to a very narrow volume of space to fight in. Both Lower Decks and Star Trek Into Darkness show ships being knocked out of warp by moving laterally out of the walls of a "warp tunnel" and getting dumped to STL.
I'm not sure why they insist on copying the "Star Wars" Warp Tunnel VFX.
And in ST:ID, they were Up Close and Very Personal when the USS Enterprise got blasted.
Warp Fields only do this while traveling at FTL, at STL, you really can't turn on the Warp Drive and expect to remain stationary.
Even if you could remain stationary and turn on the Warp Field, the same beam Deflection would apply to your own weaponry, ergo you couldn't fire beam weaponry out given the amount of Spatial Distortion occuring around you. Ergo turning it into a type of Shield that deflects enemies beam weaponry, but your own as well. Leaving you stuck with only Torpedoes/Missiles which have a significantly more limited supply of weapons that are very expendable.
More importantly, if this deviation/distortion exists it should be present with all energies reaching (or not reaching) the target ship. Ship's sensor beams are not affected as they can maintain locks. What examples are there of this deflection? (Sounds suspiciously like a deflector shield which needs to be turned on
While the target size never actually changes, long distance combat dictates the size of the target Silhouette.
It's like comparing short range bullet shots with long range bullet shots, the size of the target becomes smaller when they are further out, ergo the chance of hitting becomes harder.
Even once you do reasonably hit, the Warp Field would apply some curvature to your beam weaponries trajectory depending on what angle it's coming in relative to the targets Movement Vector.
Not really, the longer the distance the beam has to cover, the more Warp Field Distortion it will encounter, deviating the beams trajectory even more.
The shorter the distance the beam has to travel the less Deflection/Distortion is occuring on top of the larger the targets Sihouette is, ergo increasing hit probability.
While the Warp Bubble might be of Fixed Static Volume/Size, the effects of the Warp Field reaching around the space surrounding the Warp Bubble isn't a fixed size and varies depending on angle and the type of Warp Drive you are using and how it's configured.
You do realize that in Star Trek that in order for their transporters and FTL sensors to work the accuracy, precision and computational power must all be present to make it happen. These factors you claim that are a problem would be child's play for weapons.
But how often do we see long range FTL Combat while at Warp Speeds with "Beam Weaponry"? I still haven't seen it portrayed during the TNG Era and Newer Series.
Everything has been "UpClose & Personal" in terms of Beam Weaponry Battle at FTL speeds.
The only time that FTL sensors were used with any sort of accuracy / precision was when Aliens slowly replaced Voyagers Crew via their form of Teleportation Device called a TransLocator.
They were effectively replacing Voyager's crew one by one while it's traveling at Warp Speeds, and the methods they used limited TransLocating Capacity with Range; the further out you are, the less TransLocating Capacity you had, it was a inversely proportional relationship of distance and TransLocation Capacity.
Just because they don't talk about it, doesn't mean it isn't happening in canon.
The normal Warp Drive that is the fundamental basis of Star Trek has directly inspired the Alcubierre Drive principles which Contracts Space in Front and Expands space behind it.
The Star Trek television series and films use the term "warp drive" to describe their method of faster-than-light travel. Neither the Alcubierre theory, nor anything similar, existed when the series was conceived—the term "warp drive" and general concept originated with John W. Campbell's 1931 science fiction novel Islands of Space.[47] Alcubierre stated in an email to William Shatner that his theory was directly inspired by the term used in the show[48] and cites the "'warp drive' of science fiction" in his 1994 article.[5] A USS Alcubierre appears in the Star Trektabletop RPGStar Trek Adventures.[49] Since the release of Star Trek: The Original Series, more recent Star Trekspin-off series have made closer use of the theory behind the Alcubierre Drive incorporating warp bubbles/fields into the in-universe science.
I would argue that the energy in a weapon energy beam is significantly greater than a navigational hazard otherwise there would be no need for tactical deflector shields.
True, but when was the last time we heard a ship traveling at FTL get hit by a Stray Beam Weapon shot from a local Space Battle while it's traveling by or around said battle at FTL?
It's not like a Modern Day Drive By Shooting or Stray Bullet that hits a random vehicle while it's moving about.
Your argument would make more sense if you claimed that weapon beams naturally diffracted or dispersed with distance and at long range become ineffective due to lack of energy hitting the target.
Beam Weapons will eventually encounter Beam Divergence after a certain point and spread it's energy over a larger area; but in my 26th century Head Canon, that gets delayed by a few seconds depending on how much reactor power you have and the EMBC (Electro-Magnetic Beam Collimator) that you apply to each beam you fire to extend it's "Effective Range" of travel before Beam Divergence occurs naturally. But this primarily applies to STL Normal Space Battles.
Ergo StarFleet StarBases with Extra Large Reactors and Large Caliber Beam Weaponry can reach out to 4 Light-Seconds before Beam Divergence occurs
Normal StarFleet StarShips are limited to 3 Light-Seconds because of Reactor size and how much energy it's willing to output with each shot.
But normal StarShip vs StarShip combat occurs around the 1 Light-Second range since most FTL sensors and computers gives you enough info that you can fly around and avoid getting shot at long ranges.
Ergo the Effective Long Distance Ship to Ship combat range remains static at 1 second = 1 Light-Second (299,792.458 km)
StarFleet (StarFighters / Shuttles) are limited by Reactor Output, so their EMBC enhanced range is limited to 2 Seconds = 2 Light-Seconds.
But given how manueverable more Shuttles/Fighters are, combat between StarShip vs StarFighters/Shuttles should be more in the ¼ Second = ¼ Light-Second range (74,948.114 km).
StarShips are inherently more disadvantaged against StarFighters/Shuttles harassing StarShips at long range and have a easier time to dodge StarShip weapons fire at longer ranges.
StarShips need to close the distance in STL fights while StarFighters/Shuttles can easily stand further away and harass, lowering the distance lowers the time to dodge.
Battle between StarFleet (StarFighters / Shuttles) against equivalent (StarFighters / Shuttles) would have even smaller reaction time windows of ⅛ Second = ⅛ Light-Second range (37,474.057 km).
Those are the practical ranges needed to make dodging shots incredibly hard between Beam Weaponry when fighting equivalent types of vessels.
But it is a option for most StarShip Captains to decide whether combat occurs at FTL speeds or at STL speeds in Normal Space.
Think about it, even Shinzon wanted to force Picard and his ship to be stuck at STL / Normal Space for the majority of it's combat.
He could've easily destroyed the Enterprise-E at FTL, but he didn't.
Janeway did the same to Ransom and she forced his ship into STL by wrecking it's Warp Nacelle.
There are alot of inherent dangers to fighting at FTL, there are very good reasons to stay in STL and fight in that domain instead of @ FTL.
There are tons of reasons to fight in STL:
- No worry about being forced out of FTL and dealing with the violent shock that comes from it and potential damage to systems.
- Long Range Combat options that is meaningful.
- Using the local environment to your advantage.
- Having more energy available to you since your FTL engines aren't eating up a giant chunk of the energy generated or fuel consumed by it.
- Having the option to retreat via FTL, instead of being stuck fighting in FTL and having no other methods of retreating should the time come.
When you scan a target at long range with RADAR, the technology you use is vastly different from scanning objects like engine output in a test rig or flying behind them and scanning their emissions.
Same with scanning the human body, different phenomena/target objects to scan need different tech / scanning resolutions.
When you are tracking a target at long range with RADAR you already can generate a firing solution. Do you need really need to know the shape of the exhaust plume of an F-15 at 20,000' to shoot at it?
The Amount of Energy and type of energy you get from FTL RADAR is vastly different from Beams flying about and having to cross multiple mediums and encountering the opponents Warp Field before hitting their shields.
Of course. However the fact that you can hit a target with your sensor beam will mean that you are able to calculate the requirements for hitting the target with an energy weapon beam.
There is no canon example within ST, but I also haven't seen or don't remember FTL battles using Beams at long ranges.
All my memories of FTL battles are with Torpedoes or at super close range with Beam Weaponry.
I'm basing my theory off of how the Warp Drive should be working.
So there are no examples of a weapon's energy beam deflecting off a warp field at any distance (which was the question.) Do your memories have beam weaponry deflecting off a warp field at close range?
Those counter examples were answering your "To my knowledge, all long distance combat has been at STL speeds, we haven't seen long distance FTL combat on screen in the TNG + newer era's."
Not all long distance combat has been at STL speeds.
I'm not sure why they insist on copying the "Star Wars" Warp Tunnel VFX.
And in ST:ID, they were Up Close and Very Personal when the USS Enterprise got blasted.
The Warp Tunnel description would indicate a change in how "new era" Warp works which does not appear to be anything like previous Warp drive descriptions or like the Alcubierre drive and more like a hyperspace drive.
Warp Fields only do this while traveling at FTL, at STL, you really can't turn on the Warp Drive and expect to remain stationary.
Even if you could remain stationary and turn on the Warp Field, the same beam Deflection would apply to your own weaponry, ergo you couldn't fire beam weaponry out given the amount of Spatial Distortion occuring around you. Ergo turning it into a type of Shield that deflects enemies beam weaponry, but your own as well. Leaving you stuck with only Torpedoes/Missiles which have a significantly more limited supply of weapons that are very expendable.
So if warp fields also prevent you from firing your own beam weaponry then it should also prevent you from seeing out with your sensor beams or receiving any information. This does not appear to happen in Star Trek at all.
While the target size never actually changes, long distance combat dictates the size of the target Silhouette.
It's like comparing short range bullet shots with long range bullet shots, the size of the target becomes smaller when they are further out, ergo the chance of hitting becomes harder.
Even once you do reasonably hit, the Warp Field would apply some curvature to your beam weaponries trajectory depending on what angle it's coming in relative to the targets Movement Vector.
You specifically wrote, "At close ranges, the time to travel is so short, that any deviation is within "Margin of Error" and won't really hurt since your target has become quite large and any distortion will only shift your beam's trajectory off by mm or inches."
And since we are only discussing the deflection after the beam hits the target's warp bubble then your comments about bullets and accuracy do not apply. The beam has hit its target and any distortion will only shift your beam's trajectory off by mm or inches (you words.) The target size doesn't change relative to the beam so a close range hit and a long range hit would still result in a minimal deflection. Your logic
While the Warp Bubble might be of Fixed Static Volume/Size, the effects of the Warp Field reaching around the space surrounding the Warp Bubble isn't a fixed size and varies depending on angle and the type of Warp Drive you are using and how it's configured.
You did not state that those factors were of any importance when fighting at close range. If those are problems at long range they would also factor in at close range if you were being consistent with your rules.
But how often do we see long range FTL Combat while at Warp Speeds with "Beam Weaponry"? I still haven't seen it portrayed during the TNG Era and Newer Series.
How often do we see long range FTL tracking at warp speeds? Frequently. Some examples: "Flashback", "Maneuvers", etc
Have we ever seen a ship at warp use transporters against a stationary target? Yes, "Maneuvers".
Have we seen ships at warp exchange "beam weaponry"? In Voyager's "Dreadnought", the warhead fired it's "Thoron Shock Emitter" at Voyager and Voyager fired a continuous tachyon beam at it. Both at a range of 10 Km which is outside of their warp bubbles.
We can still show that the technology easily allows the ships at warp to track and aim at each other at long range. If you remove the aiming/tracking variable then the remaining reasons for fighting at close range or dropping to STL are:
1. Energy weapon dissipation / diffraction due to distance. You want to get close so your energy beam weapons are still potent.
2. Or Energy weapon composition unable to move at FTL speeds. In this situation you have an energy weapon that doesn't work at FTL speeds, therefore it is not an option.
3. Something else
The only time that FTL sensors were used with any sort of accuracy / precision was when Aliens slowly replaced Voyagers Crew via their form of Teleportation Device called a TransLocator.
They were effectively replacing Voyager's crew one by one while it's traveling at Warp Speeds, and the methods they used limited TransLocating Capacity with Range; the further out you are, the less TransLocating Capacity you had, it was a inversely proportional relationship of distance and TransLocation Capacity.
Think about how accurate and precise the technology is required to target the atoms of a person with a transporter even at sublight. Now refer to "Maneuvers" where it is stated that the Maquis did this all the time with a ship flying at warp and the target stationary.
We've seen enough TNG/DS9/Voyager to find more counter examples that Warping drive is not contracting the front and expanding space behind it. If it were performing like an Alcubierre drive then navigational deflectors would be unnecessary and more importantly we would not need subspace for warp drive to function.
The normal Warp Drive that is the fundamental basis of Star Trek has directly inspired the Alcubierre Drive principles which Contracts Space in Front and Expands space behind it.
"Alcubierre stated in an email to William Shatner that his theory was directly inspired by the term used in the show[48] and cites the "'warp drive' of science fiction" in his 1994 article."
Inspired by the term used in Star Trek does not equate to accurately describing what is happening in Star Trek.
True, but when was the last time we heard a ship traveling at FTL get hit by a Stray Beam Weapon shot from a local Space Battle while it's traveling by or around said battle at FTL?
When was the last time you saw a ship traveling at FTL straying into another battle? Still the argument stands that an energy beam weapon will deliver significantly greater energy when in range than a navigational hazard otherwise there would be no need for tactical deflector shields. Or more specifically, when did you ever see a navigational deflector block a phaser at any speed?
Beam Weapons will eventually encounter Beam Divergence after a certain point and spread it's energy over a larger area; but in my 26th century Head Canon, that gets delayed by a few seconds depending on how much reactor power you have and the EMBC (Electro-Magnetic Beam Collimator) that you apply to each beam you fire to extend it's "Effective Range" of travel before Beam Divergence occurs naturally. But this primarily applies to STL Normal Space Battles.
Ergo StarFleet StarBases with Extra Large Reactors and Large Caliber Beam Weaponry can reach out to 4 Light-Seconds before Beam Divergence occurs
Normal StarFleet StarShips are limited to 3 Light-Seconds because of Reactor size and how much energy it's willing to output with each shot.
But normal StarShip vs StarShip combat occurs around the 1 Light-Second range since most FTL sensors and computers gives you enough info that you can fly around and avoid getting shot at long ranges.
Ergo the Effective Long Distance Ship to Ship combat range remains static at 1 second = 1 Light-Second (299,792.458 km)
StarFleet (StarFighters / Shuttles) are limited by Reactor Output, so their EMBC enhanced range is limited to 2 Seconds = 2 Light-Seconds.
But given how manueverable more Shuttles/Fighters are, combat between StarShip vs StarFighters/Shuttles should be more in the ¼ Second = ¼ Light-Second range (74,948.114 km).
StarShips are inherently more disadvantaged against StarFighters/Shuttles harassing StarShips at long range and have a easier time to dodge StarShip weapons fire at longer ranges.
StarShips need to close the distance in STL fights while StarFighters/Shuttles can easily stand further away and harass, lowering the distance lowers the time to dodge.
Battle between StarFleet (StarFighters / Shuttles) against equivalent (StarFighters / Shuttles) would have even smaller reaction time windows of ⅛ Second = ⅛ Light-Second range (37,474.057 km).
Those are the practical ranges needed to make dodging shots incredibly hard between Beam Weaponry when fighting equivalent types of vessels.
However in Star Trek, range dispersion and diffraction would be a more practical answer to as why beam weapons are not used at great distances than any inability to target the ship.
Think about it, even Shinzon wanted to force Picard and his ship to be stuck at STL / Normal Space for the majority of it's combat.
He could've easily destroyed the Enterprise-E at FTL, but he didn't.
Shinzon was very explicit in that the wanted to capture Picard for a DNA transfusion. Shinzon could have destroyed the E-E at FTL without going to STL if he didn't want Picard alive so this example doesn't support your point either.
In "Equinox", Janeway made no specific order to force Ransom to STL. They just happen to disable the port warp nacelle causing the Equinox to drop to STL. The combat started once Voyager got within weapons range while both ships were at warp. Weapons range was somewhere under 50,000 Km.
There are alot of inherent dangers to fighting at FTL, there are very good reasons to stay in STL and fight in that domain instead of @ FTL.
There are tons of reasons to fight in STL:
- No worry about being forced out of FTL and dealing with the violent shock that comes from it and potential damage to systems.
This didn't happen before when ships were forced out of warp like in "Nemesis" or "Equinox".
But it started to happen in the new era with "Lower Decks" and "Star Trek Into Darkness".
When you are tracking a target at long range with RADAR you already can generate a firing solution. Do you need really need to know the shape of the exhaust plume of an F-15 at 20,000' to shoot at it?
That F-15's Exhaust Plume doesn't Bend "Space Time" over a giant swath of space in front and to the rear of it while traveling at FTL speeds.
It's a unique problem for a unique propulsion system that is very common in Common Advanced Interstellar Travel.
It's not with out ALOT of careful thought as to why it should be implemented.
We have yet to see FTL Battles in Space at "LONG Ranges" that don't involve torpedoes and specifically involve Particle Beam weaponry.
Given the fact that Particle Beam weaponry is the most common form of weapon in Star Trek & Star Wars, I'm surprised it hasn't come up.
Remember, Star Trek is a 58+ year old franchise, there isn't many scenarios that are "New" or "Un-Explored" by this point in time.
This is one of them.
Of course. However the fact that you can hit a target with your sensor beam will mean that you are able to calculate the requirements for hitting the target with an energy weapon beam.
I concur, it's LONG been established that most species can find each other at distance while traveling at FTL, that isn't the hard part.
Why hasn't anybody shot each other with Beam Weaponry while at FTL, while at long ranges?
Why does everybody get "Up Close & Personal"?
Those counter examples were answering your "To my knowledge, all long distance combat has been at STL speeds, we haven't seen long distance FTL combat on screen in the TNG + newer era's."
Not all long distance combat has been at STL speeds.
The Warp Tunnel description would indicate a change in how "new era" Warp works which does not appear to be anything like previous Warp drive descriptions or like the Alcubierre drive and more like a hyperspace drive.
When the Enterprise-D gets pulled out of the garage from Athan Prime, FTL travel is depicted as what we've seen in the TNG era.
So I'm going to take the "Warp Tunnel" as a VFX Artistic License and that the folks who implemented that don't understand / care / respect the TNG era portrayal of standard FTL Warp Drive.
Especially since Quantum Slip Stream looks like the Blue Tunnel that we see as the standard Warp VFX.
So if warp fields also prevent you from firing your own beam weaponry then it should also prevent you from seeing out with your sensor beams or receiving any information. This does not appear to happen in Star Trek at all.
Because most people don't have crazy ideas to use a Warp Drive to turn it into a impenetrable Shield System. That sounds like the idea of somebody who wanted to create a "Wonder Weapon" of sorts.
Similar to how Germans in WW2 kept trying to pull crazy ideas off with various levels of success and many levels of failure. Heck we can turn that into a plot / Mini Arc for a future series =D.
You specifically wrote, "At close ranges, the time to travel is so short, that any deviation is within "Margin of Error" and won't really hurt since your target has become quite large and any distortion will only shift your beam's trajectory off by mm or inches."
And since we are only discussing the deflection after the beam hits the target's warp bubble then your comments about bullets and accuracy do not apply. The beam has hit its target and any distortion will only shift your beam's trajectory off by mm or inches (you words.) The target size doesn't change relative to the beam so a close range hit and a long range hit would still result in a minimal deflection. Your logic
But at long range, the effects of the Warp Field are in play, so if you're shooting from let's say, maximum distance of 300,000 km and expecting it to hit, it will encounter a giant swath of Distorted Space/Time depending on what angle you're firing at, ergo the distortion will deflect the Beam's trajectory. Remember, the Distortion can affect a VERY long & wide swath of space around the vessel, outside the Warp Bubble.
Look at how much space is getting distorted around the USS Enterprise, imagine having to calculate how to hit the USS Enterprise when your vessel is at Warp, 300,000 km away, right behind the Enterprise.
You are maintaining a safe and fixed distance, not catching up, or getting left behind, but matching EXACT velocity.
You try to shoot at it and watch the Beam veer off naturally. Remember, your beam only travels at the Speed of Light. At FTL speeds, both you and the target vessels are going many times the Speed of Light.
Even if you can extend the Warp Bubble around your Beam to reach out and touch somebody, you still have to deal with that distortion.
That's not a easy problem to solve.
You did not state that those factors were of any importance when fighting at close range. If those are problems at long range they would also factor in at close range if you were being consistent with your rules.
I assumed you understood how the Alcubierre Drive works and how it affects space around the Warp Bubble.
Remember, the Warp Bubble contains a stable pocket of Normal Space, it's Space-Time around the vessel's Warp Bubble that gets distorted.
You should've easily known that by now given how well informed you are. I shouldn't have to spell it out in most cases.
Sorry if I didn't clarify enough, but now you know. I just assumed you understood because you're a fellow nerd / Trekkie.
Have we seen ships at warp exchange "beam weaponry"? In Voyager's "Dreadnought", the warhead fired it's "Thoron Shock Emitter" at Voyager and Voyager fired a continuous tachyon beam at it. Both at a range of 10 Km which is outside of their warp bubbles.
Yes, but that is also considered "Close Range" in terms of Space combat Distances.
Remember, in STL combat, the maximum range of Beam Weaponry is ~300,000 km ~= 1 Light-Second.
10 km, you might as well be fighting at each other with metaphorical spears.
Just look at the fight between the Nebula Class and the USS Prometheus, that was INCREDIBLY close for a ship to be that large.
It had to easily been within < 10 km range. Just use a basic Size to Angle calculator, you can easily see how close the ships were.
If the Nebula was 100,000 km away, it would be a speck in the distance throwing beam fire.
But that's not what we saw.
We can still show that the technology easily allows the ships at warp to track and aim at each other at long range. If you remove the aiming/tracking variable then the remaining reasons for fighting at close range or dropping to STL are:
1. Energy weapon dissipation / diffraction due to distance. You want to get close so your energy beam weapons are still potent.
2. Or Energy weapon composition unable to move at FTL speeds. In this situation you have an energy weapon that doesn't work at FTL speeds, therefore it is not an option.
3. Something else
Think about how accurate and precise the technology is required to target the atoms of a person with a transporter even at sublight. Now refer to "Maneuvers" where it is stated that the Maquis did this all the time with a ship flying at warp and the target stationary.
Yeah, it's advanced, but the target is "Stationary" and not erecting spatial Distortions around it. It's just Stationary on a Planet/Space Station.
There is a vast difference.
If it were performing like an Alcubierre drive then navigational deflectors would be unnecessary and more importantly we would not need subspace for warp drive to function.
IMO, the Navigational Deflector would still be necessary with the Alcubierre drive, any small particles that come in contact with your Warp Bubble would still probably carry the same momentum it has or gain momentum, and eventually collide with your ship's hull. You saw how much damage the ISS took when getting hit by spatial debris, having the Navigational Deflector would be incredibly useful given how many random large dust particles or debris is out there and how it could damage your vessel. Remember when Voyager warped out w/o the Navigational Deflector, it took ALOT of hull damage just from basic Warp Travel.
"Alcubierre stated in an email to William Shatner that his theory was directly inspired by the term used in the show[48] and cites the "'warp drive' of science fiction" in his 1994 article."
Inspired by the term used in Star Trek does not equate to accurately describing what is happening in Star Trek.
Since the release of Star Trek: The Original Series, more recent Star Trekspin-off series have made closer use of the theory behind the Alcubierre Drive incorporating warp bubbles/fields into the in-universe science.
Still the argument stands that an energy beam weapon will deliver significantly greater energy when in range than a navigational hazard otherwise there would be no need for tactical deflector shields. Or more specifically, when did you ever see a navigational deflector block a phaser at any speed?
Navigational Deflectors were never designed to block most Particle Beam Weapons, the only thing it can block were "Primitive Lasers" and most basic small particles in space.
That's why we have our normal Deflector Shields used for combat =D.
I concur, given how large space is: 1-"Light Second" is simultaneously MASSIVE in the human level of understanding of size/distance, but TEENY/TINY in the Cosmological Grand Scale of distances.
However in Star Trek, range dispersion and diffraction would be a more practical answer to as why beam weapons are not used at great distances than any inability to target the ship.
That's only if you're more than a few Light-Seconds away, if you're that far out, no amount of beams will reach you; Long Range Torpedoes are another story =D.
Especially with USS Voyager's discovery of the "Series 5 Long Range Tactical Armor Unit". That Torpedo was a BEAST.
The Condensed Energy Matrix inside was a superior Battery than anything we've seen within the UFP / StarFleet.
It can store enough energy too power the Torpedo to travel 80 light years, imagine the Energy Density/Efficiency of that battery to fit within such a small device.
The Torpedo's capabilities make StarFleets Torpedoes look like dumbfire missiles in comparison who can't even crack 1 light year in range.
I'm sure StarFleet will learn and improve their Torpedoes in response to Voyager bringing back the scans of that weapon.
StarFleet Tactical must be salivating at making Torpedoes that can traverse 80 light years on it's own, have it's own shielding, AI, and ability to dodge.
Shinzon was very explicit in that the wanted to capture Picard for a DNA transfusion. Shinzon could have destroyed the E-E at FTL without going to STL if he didn't want Picard alive so this example doesn't support your point either.
In "Equinox", Janeway made no specific order to force Ransom to STL. They just happen to disable the port warp nacelle causing the Equinox to drop to STL. The combat started once Voyager got within weapons range while both ships were at warp. Weapons range was somewhere under 50,000 Km.
This didn't happen before when ships were forced out of warp like in "Nemesis" or "Equinox".
But it started to happen in the new era with "Lower Decks" and "Star Trek Into Darkness".
Yes, you can always use Torpedoes, but not everybody is always in a situation to spam Torpedoes.
Janeway was always worried about firing Torpedoes because she had no good ways of replenishing them when stranded in the Delta Quadrant.
We've also seen plenty of times where they were able to escape via FTL Warp Jump as well.
So it might not have a 100% track record, but rarely does anything have a perfect track record.
As long as it's used often enough, it should be a option to consider, retreating / running away at FTL should be a option to the Captain.
If they're already running away at FTL, then short of having "The Spore Drive" and "Spore Jumping" while in FTL, you're really up the creek w/o a paddle.
In fairness, Tachyons are travelling at FTL velocities in Trek... so it stands to reason the Tachyon beam fired from the main deflector from VOY to the Dreadnaught would also be FTL - aka, no issues travelling beyond the Warp bubble and hitting its target outside the Warp bubble.
I think a more clear cut example of energy weapons being used at long ranges against a target while at FTL would be Warp strafing from TOS?
This method would involve having the Enterprise firing phasers from FTL at a target which is moving at sublight (so there is a difference in this that both objects are NOT moving at FTL which arguably complicates matters - but the TOS Ent was seemingly able to do it).
I mean it would likely involve the ENT passing by a ship (which is at sublight) using Warp and firing its weapons at close ranges.
How close, we don't know though because how would a Warp bubble which is actively bending space time interact with a target that's traveling at 25, 50 or 75% speed of light?
My guess is that a warp field would negatively impact the target's section suddenly exposed to a warp field and shred it to bits due to the transition from normal space time and the Warp bubble.
Actually, couldnt' THIS be used as a viable method of attacking someone using Warp strafing?
You'd still be able to use torpedoes (obviously), just not energy weapons, but you can also turn the Warp bubble into a seemingly active weapon.
The Warp strafing method seemingly hadn't been used since TOS era, and its possible that with advancement of technology and ships in the 24th century being relatively on par with each other, they would be able to counter this method, or this tactic would only be employed for certain situations.
Sure, but you would need a Pilot with serious Cajones to fly that close at FTL speeds. The margin for error is TINY, the consequences for failure is HUGE.
They would also need to have their Shields down for the damage to be serious.
Sure, but you would need a Pilot with serious Cajones to fly that close at FTL speeds. The margin for error is TINY, the consequences for failure is HUGE.
They would also need to have their Shields down for the damage to be serious.
Or just auto-pilot it for precision.
Computers can after all make course corrections and adapt to sudden changes much faster than biological entities since we ARE talking about superluminal computing.
It also depends on how far away the warp bubble extends from the ship.
Of course, travelling at FTL leaves small margin for error... so automation would likely be the way to go.
Or just auto-pilot it for precision.
Computers can after all make course corrections and adapt to sudden changes much faster than biological entities since we ARE talking about superluminal computing.
But given that most of the Spatial Distortion Lobes are largest at the Fore & Aft of the vessel, you'll effectively have to do a "J-Turn" in space and make sure your craft Drifts perfectly while letting the Spatial Distortions wreck the space around the target vessels you intend to do.
After reading through your responses I can see that you are describing a specific version of Star Trek combined with your own head canon and I've adjusted my responses below accordingly.
That F-15's Exhaust Plume doesn't Bend "Space Time" over a giant swath of space in front and to the rear of it while traveling at FTL speeds.
It's a unique problem for a unique propulsion system that is very common in Common Advanced Interstellar Travel.
There is zero evidence that this is a common problem in most of Star Trek. However this might be an issue in the Kelvinverse as they lacked FTL combat up until Star Trek Into Darkness.
It's not with out ALOT of careful thought as to why it should be implemented.
We have yet to see FTL Battles in Space at "LONG Ranges" that don't involve torpedoes and specifically involve Particle Beam weaponry.
I had avoided discussing TOS because Star Trek production did essentially a soft-reboot on technology starting in TNG. But, for the sake of your knowledge, TOS featured Long Range FTL combat with phasers, disruptors and torpedoes.
1. "Arena" - Enterprise pursuing Gorn at Warp trying to get in range to attack with phasers. Phaser range stated to be less than <0.04 LY.
2. "Balance of Terror" - Enterprise warp strafing at extreme phaser range Romulan BOP. Extreme phaser range equated to outside of Romulan Plasma Torpedo range which was 2 minutes of warp flight time.
3. "The Changeling" - Enterprise at warp is attacked by Nomad who is also at warp with torpedoes until Enterprise has to drop to sublight in order to maintain shields.
4. "Journey to Babel" - Orion warp strafes the Enterprise who is also at Warp. Enterprise cuts engine power and phasers Orion still at Warp at 75,000 Km.
5. "The Ultimate Computer" - Enterprise engages with 1/100th power phasers the Excalibur and Lexington while all are at Warp speed at engagement distance of 200,000 Km.
6. "Elaan of Troyius" - Klingon Battlecruiser makes various warp strafes at impulse powered Enterprise with disruptors. Firing range above 40,000 Km.
7. "The Enterprise Incident" - Romulan chasing Enterprise at warp. Romulan weapons range under 100,000 Km.
8. "The Deadly Years" - Ten Romulan ships attacking the Enterprise traveling at Warp 5. Ranges vary between 50,000 to 100,000 Km.
9. "The Lights of Zetar" - Enterprise fires phasers across and into Zetar alien pursuing them while both are at warp.
When TNG came around the tech was redone so that phasers and practically all other beam weapons like disruptors were made more "realistic" and limited to light speed which is reflected in the TNG: Technical Manual. Now you know why you don't see any long-range phaser battles starting with TNG
In the Kelvinverse warp combat was impossible until Star Trek Into Darkness so if you went by the first movie you would have never seen any FTL combat.
Remember, Star Trek is a 58+ year old franchise, there isn't many scenarios that are "New" or "Un-Explored" by this point in time.
This is one of them.
I concur, it's LONG been established that most species can find each other at distance while traveling at FTL, that isn't the hard part.
Why hasn't anybody shot each other with Beam Weaponry while at FTL, while at long ranges?
Why does everybody get "Up Close & Personal"?
2. In TNG/VOY/DS9/ENT long-range beam weapon FTL combat was no longer possible with the tech change and replaced with torpedo combat.
3. In Kelvin-verse FTL combat wasn't possible until Star Trek Into Darkness and apparently there is alot of warp distortion requiring close-range combat.
4. In New Era (Lower Decks, Picard, SNW) FTL combat is still in flux so we'll have to wait and see.
It makes sense now with your answers. If you watched the earlier series you'd see that there are no examples of a warp field deflecting beam weaponry. This doesn't occur until the Kelvinverse.
Yet those key words are not in your statement: "To my knowledge, all long distance combat has been at STL speeds, we haven't seen long distance FTL combat on screen in the TNG + newer era's."
When the Enterprise-D gets pulled out of the garage from Athan Prime, FTL travel is depicted as what we've seen in the TNG era.
So I'm going to take the "Warp Tunnel" as a VFX Artistic License and that the folks who implemented that don't understand / care / respect the TNG era portrayal of standard FTL Warp Drive.
Especially since Quantum Slip Stream looks like the Blue Tunnel that we see as the standard Warp VFX.
No, the new Warp Tunnels have consequences so it isn't so easy to discount them as VFX artistic licenses. There is a definite boundary which would constrain combat distances at warp.
We can clearly see the ships passing through the boundary as they exit out of the warp tunnel.
However we do not see this at all with Equinox when she is knocked out of warp or Enterprise-E in "Nemesis".
There are no examples of Star Trek exhibiting effects of an Alcubierre drive in TNG/Voyager/DS9 and now you know (from above) that in TOS there was plenty of long range FTL beam weaponry combat.
Because most people don't have crazy ideas to use a Warp Drive to turn it into a impenetrable Shield System. That sounds like the idea of somebody who wanted to create a "Wonder Weapon" of sorts.
But at long range, the effects of the Warp Field are in play, so if you're shooting from let's say, maximum distance of 300,000 km and expecting it to hit, it will encounter a giant swath of Distorted Space/Time depending on what angle you're firing at, ergo the distortion will deflect the Beam's trajectory. Remember, the Distortion can affect a VERY long & wide swath of space around the vessel, outside the Warp Bubble.
This doesn't occur in TOS and beam weapon combat at FTL speeds are limited to close range affairs in TNG and later due to the speed of the beam.
But we see nascent FTL combat in the Kelvinverse and they do seem to like portraying some aspects of the Alcubierre drive.
The jury is still out (IMHO) on how new series like SNW and Lower Decks will go.
Actually, you'll notice in the Kelvinverse your scenario was impossible prior to Star Trek Into Darkness as they couldn't fight at warp speed. To some extent it still might not be possible at 300,00 Km given how close Vengeance had to get to overcome the distortion around the Enterprise to land a hit. But who knows, maybe in the next Kelvinverse movie?
You try to shoot at it and watch the Beam veer off naturally. Remember, your beam only travels at the Speed of Light. At FTL speeds, both you and the target vessels are going many times the Speed of Light.
Even if you can extend the Warp Bubble around your Beam to reach out and touch somebody, you still have to deal with that distortion.
That's not a easy problem to solve.
The energy beam being limited to speed of light is something that started in TNG but we know this problem is solved around Voyager otherwise firing phasers at warp even at close range would be impossible.
Back to the Kelvinverse - Scotty in the first Kelvin-verse movie does solve the targeting problem with his transwarp beaming solution. So who knows, maybe we'll see some long-range beam FTL combat in that universe should a new move every be made.
I assumed you understood how the Alcubierre Drive works and how it affects space around the Warp Bubble.
Remember, the Warp Bubble contains a stable pocket of Normal Space, it's Space-Time around the vessel's Warp Bubble that gets distorted.
You should've easily known that by now given how well informed you are. I shouldn't have to spell it out in most cases.
Sorry if I didn't clarify enough, but now you know. I just assumed you understood because you're a fellow nerd / Trekkie.
I also assumed you read that ships using the Alcubierre Drive can't send signals in front of where they are going or steer or stop. Or that the travelers would get fried by hawking radiation. I figured you were cherry-picking attributes you liked about the drive so I didn't see the need to point out where you ignored the differences between Alcubierre's drive and what we've observed in Star Trek.
Just look at the fight between the Nebula Class and the USS Prometheus, that was INCREDIBLY close for a ship to be that large.
It had to easily been within < 10 km range. Just use a basic Size to Angle calculator, you can easily see how close the ships were.
If the Nebula was 100,000 km away, it would be a speck in the distance throwing beam fire.
But that's not what we saw.
I'd agree that depending on which series you are in, long range FTL combat with beam weapons are not possible.
If the series allowed it like in TOS then there are plenty of reasons for it.
If the series made it impossible like in TNG/Voy/DS9/ENT then you'd wouldn't see it.
Yeah, it's advanced, but the target is "Stationary" and not erecting spatial Distortions around it. It's just Stationary on a Planet/Space Station.
There is a vast difference.
IMO, the Navigational Deflector would still be necessary with the Alcubierre drive, any small particles that come in contact with your Warp Bubble would still probably carry the same momentum it has or gain momentum, and eventually collide with your ship's hull.
If you read the wiki on Alcubierre drive you'd realize that the particles would not collide with your ship's hull.
"Brendan McMonigal, Geraint F. Lewis, and Philip O'Byrne have argued that were an Alcubierre-driven ship to decelerate from superluminal speed, the particles that its bubble had gathered in transit would be released in energetic outbursts akin to the infinitely-blueshifted radiation hypothesized to occur at the inner event horizon of a Kerr black hole; forward-facing particles would thereby be energetic enough to destroy anything at the destination directly in front of the ship."
No, I deliberately left it out as it didn't apply to TNG/DS9/ENT/VOY. But I would agree it could apply to newer series or even more specifically to the Kelvinverse.
"Since the release of Star Trek: The Original Series, more recent Star Trek spin-off series have made closer use of the theory behind the Alcubierre Drive incorporating warp bubbles/fields into the in-universe science."
Yes, you can always use Torpedoes, but not everybody is always in a situation to spam Torpedoes.
Janeway was always worried about firing Torpedoes because she had no good ways of replenishing them when stranded in the Delta Quadrant.
If you read the wiki on Alcubierre drive you'd realize that the particles would not collide with your ship's hull.
"Brendan McMonigal, Geraint F. Lewis, and Philip O'Byrne have argued that were an Alcubierre-driven ship to decelerate from superluminal speed, the particles that its bubble had gathered in transit would be released in energetic outbursts akin to the infinitely-blueshifted radiation hypothesized to occur at the inner event horizon of a Kerr black hole; forward-facing particles would thereby be energetic enough to destroy anything at the destination directly in front of the ship."
After reading through your responses I can see that you are describing a specific version of Star Trek combined with your own head canon and I've adjusted my responses below accordingly.
There is zero evidence that this is a common problem in most of Star Trek. However this might be an issue in the Kelvinverse as they lacked FTL combat up until Star Trek Into Darkness.
I had avoided discussing TOS because Star Trek production did essentially a soft-reboot on technology starting in TNG. But, for the sake of your knowledge, TOS featured Long Range FTL combat with phasers, disruptors and torpedoes.
1. "Arena" - Enterprise pursuing Gorn at Warp trying to get in range to attack with phasers. Phaser range stated to be less than <0.04 LY.
2. "Balance of Terror" - Enterprise warp strafing at extreme phaser range Romulan BOP. Extreme phaser range equated to outside of Romulan Plasma Torpedo range which was 2 minutes of warp flight time.
It seems that the Plasma Torpedo has ~2 minute existence time before dissipating (Better/more apt name for it is a "Plasma Cannon Ball") given that it seems to be a Orb of Plasma w/o using any physical Torpedo to encase the warhead or guide it. That's a pretty long time to exist for such a massive ball of glowing hot plasma traveling in space.
3. "The Changeling" - Enterprise at warp is attacked by Nomad who is also at warp with torpedoes until Enterprise has to drop to sublight in order to maintain shields.
4. "Journey to Babel" - Orion warp strafes the Enterprise who is also at Warp. Enterprise cuts engine power and phasers Orion still at Warp at 75,000 Km.
According to Resurrected StarShips: "Battle Analysis", the Orion Craft gets cloes to the USS Enterprise, matches Warp Speed, fires, than accelerates to a Higher Warp Speed and continues to do this repeatedly.
Kirk baits the Orion Ship by going back to Normal Speed and cuts power to pretend they're dead in the water and fires at Orions as it jumps back to Normal space.
Any Long Range shots misses because the Orions are accelerating at Warp to a higher Warp Speed.
5. "The Ultimate Computer" - Enterprise engages with 1/100th power phasers the Excalibur and Lexington while all are at Warp speed at engagement distance of 200,000 Km.
7. "The Enterprise Incident" - Romulan chasing Enterprise at warp. Romulan weapons range under 100,000 Km.
8. "The Deadly Years" - Ten Romulan ships attacking the Enterprise traveling at Warp 5. Ranges vary between 50,000 to 100,000 Km.
9. "The Lights of Zetar" - Enterprise fires phasers across and into Zetar alien pursuing them while both are at warp.
When TNG came around the tech was redone so that phasers and practically all other beam weapons like disruptors were made more "realistic" and limited to light speed which is reflected in the TNG: Technical Manual. Now you know why you don't see any long-range phaser battles starting with TNG
Just because your Beam Projectiles is limited to the "Speed of Light" while in Normal Space doesn't mean it can't be "Useful" in FTL combat if employed creatively or even in a realistic manner.
Leading the target and firing your beams and having the enemy run into them is a practical thing. When you're at FTL speeds, the higher speed you are, the less manueverability you should have at FTL.
Just lead the target by several Light-MilliSeconds and you should be fine.
In the Kelvinverse warp combat was impossible until Star Trek Into Darkness so if you went by the first movie you would have never seen any FTL combat.
Because in-universe weapon deflections by the warp field doesn't exist unless you jump over into the Kelvinverse.Assuming across the ST; Multi-verse / All Parallel Quantum Realities that the "Laws of Physics" are consistent across all of them and that they apply to every portrayal that we see.
Assuming that the VFX in all the various Series Portrayals are relatively accurate, that means Beam Weaponry that is normally limited to the "Speed of Light" can be used at Long Distances while at FTL.
You might have to account for the "Speed Differential" between moving at FTL Warp speeds and your projectiles potentially being stuck at Normal Space speeds once it leaves your Warp Field's effects, but it seems to be possible to fire, let the projectiles travel, and let it eventually hit the target.
Similar to the example of the pilot shooting himself down while doing a dive.
2. In TNG/VOY/DS9/ENT long-range beam weapon FTL combat was no longer possible with the tech change and replaced with torpedo combat.
3. In Kelvin-verse FTL combat wasn't possible until Star Trek Into Darkness and apparently there is alot of warp distortion requiring close-range combat.
4. In New Era (Lower Decks, Picard, SNW) FTL combat is still in flux so we'll have to wait and see.
It makes sense now with your answers. If you watched the earlier series you'd see that there are no examples of a warp field deflecting beam weaponry. This doesn't occur until the Kelvinverse.
::shrugs:: I've never watched the TOS/TAS era shows, so like I've said, there is a gap in my knowledge, but I rely on more experienced TOS fans and various YT videos to explain what happened back then.
But they were "Up Close & Personal" when that happened. The USS Vengeance basically got so close to the USS Enterprise, that he might as well have been in kissing distance, metaphorically speaking.
10 km is still pretty close well, within the range of Warp Fields inter-mingling that you should be able to fire things at each other w/o causing too much of a distortion given the relative short distances.
Also, Voyager was firing a solid continuous beam at the Dreadnought, where was USS Vengeance were firing bolts.
I wonder if the type of beams being fired matters for how much distortion gets affected?
Yet those key words are not in your statement: "To my knowledge, all long distance combat has been at STL speeds, we haven't seen long distance FTL combat on screen in the TNG + newer era's."
No, the new Warp Tunnels have consequences so it isn't so easy to discount them as VFX artistic licenses. There is a definite boundary which would constrain combat distances at warp.
The USS Cerritos voluntarily exited the Warp Field after it ejected the Warp Core by banking 'Hard to StarBoard' and letting the AI ships & Exploding Warp Core pass right by.
The USS Enterprise was "Forced Out" by the USS Vengeance.
We do know that Warp Sustainers on Torpedoes can take the Warp Field Energy and continue it's Warp Glide, long after it exits the Warp Field of it's Mother Ship.
Assuming Warp Fields don't just magically turn off the moment you decide to exit but continue for a short amount of time after you turn off the Warp Engines, like a Wave in water that naturally dissipates and evens out over time, that could explain why they look like they're exiting a tunnel. The Warp Field is still distorting and moving about once you decide to exit, but the amount of Spatial Distortion will weaken over time in short order since there are no Warp Engines continuing the Spatial Distortion, so things will return to normal over time very quickly after you leave warp. There might be a short distance after a vessel exits Warp Drive that a Warp Wake will still register on sensors as to its last known vector of travel at FTL that is easy to spot via sensors.
Hmm, you made me think more closely about how Warp Drives operate, I'm glad we had this discussion.
But it seems like the Equinox & Enterprise-E's "Forced Exit" is more akin to a set of "Blown Out Tires" and forced to stop quickly w/o changing vectors laterally instead of banking out of the Warp Tunnel.
There are no examples of Star Trek exhibiting effects of an Alcubierre drive in TNG/Voyager/DS9 and now you know (from above) that in TOS there was plenty of long range FTL beam weaponry combat.
But my situation only applies to a very "specific set of circumstances"; long distance beam travel from far away, towards the target that is moving at FTL speeds using Warp Drive.
It's not applicable to any/every situation, especially if you're at STL.
This doesn't occur in TOS and beam weapon combat at FTL speeds are limited to close range affairs in TNG and later due to the speed of the beam.
But we see nascent FTL combat in the Kelvinverse and they do seem to like portraying some aspects of the Alcubierre drive.
The jury is still out (IMHO) on how new series like SNW and Lower Decks will go.
But that was with VFX of that era and knowledge about space travel at FTL from that era.
Every major leap in VFX era & attempted portrayal, they seem to get closer to what we think it would "Accurately Look like".
Remember in the ST:Beyond shot of the Enterprise at Warp, it was from the perspective of somebody far away, well outside the ships warp bubble looking at the ship while it's traveling.
Star Trek Beyond included one of the most realistic depictions of warp travel that we've ever seen in Trek.
Warp drive works by creating a sort of protective "bubble" around the ship, then contracting the space in front of the ship and expanding the space behind it, effectively allowing the ship to travel faster than light without actually accelerating at all. Many believe that this is the only way faster-than-light travel could be possible, given the limitations of Einstein's theory of relativity.
Visual Effects Supervisor Peter Chiang came up with the idea to bend light around the warp bubble, creating a gravitational lensing effect similar to what you'd see around the edges of a black hole or other massive objects. Just like a black hole, the warp effect distorts light by curving the space it travels through.
The warp effect in Beyond not only looks cooler than any used in the past, but is also way more scientifically accurate.
As we increase our collective VFX prowess and increase our Scientific Understanding of how Warp Travel or any of the various FTL travels would look like, we can strive to get a more accurate portrayal as possible.
I really like how he had that Bubble expanding around the vessel before entering Warp.
I think the next VFX update should be a combination of that effect when entering/exiting Warp
Then we can get a panning shot from Outside the Warp Field/Bubble to inside the Warp Field/Bubble where it would look closer to the TNG era Star Streaks and show how calm everything looks on the inside.
It can show the Warp Bubble causing the gravitational lensing effect like in ST:Beyond, then as you enter the Warp Field and Warp Bubble, it can transition back to TNG era style Star Streaks where everything looks much more calm.
I'd argue they just haven't portrayed it yet, because we eventually do see it in ST:ID. So to say they "Can't fight at Warp Speed", when it wasn't portrayed on screen at the time due to the shots needed for the script.
To some extent it still might not be possible at 300,00 Km given how close Vengeance had to get to overcome the distortion around the Enterprise to land a hit.
But Vengeance relied almost entirely on Beam Bolts, while TNG era ships prefer continuous "LASER-like" Directed Particle Beams.
The type of Beam Projectile you use might have serious effects as to how the Warp Field interacts with it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The energy beam being limited to speed of light is something that started in TNG but we know this problem is solved around Voyager otherwise firing phasers at warp even at close range would be impossible.
It might have always been possible, we just never saw it portrayed due to limited VFX budgets. Remember, Voyager came during the early advent of computer CG.
TNG still had alot of "Old School" VFX implmentations where they had to paint over several layers.
Back to the Kelvinverse - Scotty in the first Kelvin-verse movie does solve the targeting problem with his transwarp beaming solution. So who knows, maybe we'll see some long-range beam FTL combat in that universe should a new move every be made.
I'd definitely would be up for it, but portrayal would require a good DP (Director of Photography) to frame the shots with the VFX team to make it look easy to understand for normies.
I also assumed you read that ships using the Alcubierre Drive can't send signals in front of where they are going or steer or stop. Or that the travelers would get fried by hawking radiation. I figured you were cherry-picking attributes you liked about the drive so I didn't see the need to point out where you ignored the differences between Alcubierre's drive and what we've observed in Star Trek.
There are also lots of theories about the Alcubierre Drive like it uses more energy than we can realistically generate, but later theories seem to change that.
In 2012, physicist Harold White and collaborators announced that modifying the geometry of exotic matter could reduce the mass–energy requirements for a macroscopic space ship from the equivalent of the planet Jupiter to that of the Voyager 1 spacecraft (c. 700 kg)[11] or less,[29] and stated their intent to perform small-scale experiments in constructing warp fields.
Requiring the Energy needs of the equivalent of the planet Jupiter is too insane to comprehend.
700 kg or less, equivalent to the mass of Voyager 1 space craft seems far more do-able.
So with future knowledge / scientific discovery, who knows when all those other issues will get resolved by the time that Warp Travel is as common as it is for humans to fly on aircraft like odern day commercial air travel.
From the current portrayals in ST about basic Warp Travel, those problems seem to have been largely resolved.
They can send Subspace Signals at nearly any time, nobody gets fried by Hawking Radiation. Most of the major issues have been long since solved.
But given that it hasn't been properly portrayed in the modern era, I thought it was a major problem. I guess it isn't since TOS allows long range combat at FTL speeds.
Just lead your target?
10,000 km would definitely be considered "Long Range", but heck, anything outside of 10 km should be well outside the Warp Field Distortion Lobe that protrudes around the Warp Bubble.
ST:TNG Technical Manual & ST:TNG USS Enterprise-D NCC-1701-D Illustrated Hand Book, both reference Canon Supplementary Material that was released as the shows were released.
EagleMoss did a "Great Job" with the Illustrated Hand Book, I'd recommend it for any Trekkie.
That was from a much earlier TNG era where VFX was far more limited in what it could do on a TV's VFX budget.
Just because you don't see it with your naked eye on our Visible Light Spectrum, doesn't mean it doesn't occur.
Just like IR light & UV light that constantly hits earth in reduced intensity during the day, doesn't mean it doesn't occur and with the "Right Tools", we can see it properly.
I'm sure with the right depiction from the right angle, we can show that it does occur like in ST:Beyond.
But in "Very Close" range and well within the Warp Field Distortion Wake.
That's very much in-line with what I've been presenting as acceptable combat range w/o having to do fancy calculations on the target's Warp Field.
Just "Get Up Close & Personal", and you can blast away to your hearts desire w/o having to worry about to many other factors, especially given how short of a distance that the beam has to travel.
Notice how it seems like the vessel is easily < 10 km from the target.
I'd agree that depending on which series you are in, long range FTL combat with beam weapons are not possible.
If the series allowed it like in TOS then there are plenty of reasons for it.
If the series made it impossible like in TNG/Voy/DS9/ENT then you'd wouldn't see it.
Or it could be realistically limited to VFX budgets & scripts of the time.
TV shows are notoriously tight on VFX budgets & deadlines.
Something as complex as long distance FTL beam battles is "Hard to Portray" w/o alot of time/effort to plan it out and to make it "Make Sense" to the average viewer.
Like I said before, it's limitations of the VFX capabilities of those era of production.
And just because you can't see it with the naked eye in the visible spectrum, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
As we've seen in modern productions, with ST:Beyond, you can show it happening in the correct context when you want to.
If you read the wiki on Alcubierre drive you'd realize that the particles would not collide with your ship's hull.
"Brendan McMonigal, Geraint F. Lewis, and Philip O'Byrne have argued that were an Alcubierre-driven ship to decelerate from superluminal speed, the particles that its bubble had gathered in transit would be released in energetic outbursts akin to the infinitely-blueshifted radiation hypothesized to occur at the inner event horizon of a Kerr black hole; forward-facing particles would thereby be energetic enough to destroy anything at the destination directly in front of the ship."
Then it's a good thing we have Bussard Collectors to collect those energetic particles ahead of us =D.
We wouldn't want to destroy the objects in local space once we exit Warp.
It's best we vacuum up all those stray particles. I'm sure the UFP/StarFleet would want to maintain safe FTL travel standards for everybody.
No, I deliberately left it out as it didn't apply to TNG/DS9/ENT/VOY. But I would agree it could apply to newer series or even more specifically to the Kelvinverse.
"Since the release of Star Trek: The Original Series, more recent Star Trek spin-off series have made closer use of the theory behind the Alcubierre Drive incorporating warp bubbles/fields into the in-universe science."
Some of the more recent series direclty relate to the TNG-era or takes place in it.
ST:Picard, ST:Lower Decks, perhps ST:Legacy one day.
Assuming that the "Laws of Physics" is consistent across the ST:Universe, no matter which Dimension or Quantum Reality we're viewing, the basic principles should still work/apply no matter if it's a newer or older series. While older series might not have discussed them on screen, the terminology and knowledge would've been discussed in universe by relevant parties.
But given long enough travel distance, the beams will have dissipated so much, that you wouldn't be able to pick up that anything was wrong or any exotic particles from beam weaponry was coming at you since the beam has dispersed/dissipated so much that it mixes with background space.
You didn't watch "Nemesis" then. Reminder as to why Shinzon is NOT going to blow the Enterprise-E up immediately:
PICARD: [Shinzon] Dying? Can anything be done for him?
CRUSHER: Nothing except a complete transfusion from the only donor with compatible DNA... You.
PICARD: How long does he have?
CRUSHER: Well I can't say for sure... but the rate of decay seems to be accelerating.
PICARD: Then he'll come for me.
and we know that the Enterprise-E was crippled while at FTL.
LAFORGE: He hit our warp drive with his first shot. We've only got impulse, Captain.
And still doesn't support a preference to fight at STL.
Angry Janeway doesn't care about much when enraged, she's taking care of her immediate problems.
Resource Mangement & Consequences be damned, she'll deal with that after the fact.
Ergo, her getting her crew stuck in the Delta Quadrant.
She made a bold choice when dealing with the Kazon and making sure that they don't get their hands on CareTaker tech.
She dealt with the consequences after she made her decision.
But given that most of the Spatial Distortion Lobes are largest at the Fore & Aft of the vessel, you'll effectively have to do a "J-Turn" in space and make sure your craft Drifts perfectly while letting the Spatial Distortions wreck the space around the target vessels you intend to do.
The spatial distortions don't necessarily extend that far in the 24th century, and arguably aren't really 'distortions' in so much a physical sense as they are in a VISUAL sense (lensing effect).
In any case, a relatively small course alteration would have to be made so that the field grazes the STL ship's hull.
As I said, its possible that what we saw aren't actual distortions of a physical nature but rather nothing more than a lensing effect (an after-image that a field leaves passing through a region of space).
Remember that Warp particles are a thing, and ships leave a warp trail behind, so it would likely be more akin to an exhaust that can be tracked, but otherwise doesn't in itself cause damage.
Automation would PROBABLY have safeties in place to prevent those things in general, but those safeties can obviously/probably be disabled when performing specific manoeuvres (especially if its written into the manoeuvre).
You can tell a computer to execute a task while disabling safeties after all. Its been done before... it may complain, but all you need to do is 'override' before you begin and you're good.
The spatial distortions don't necessarily extend that far in the 24th century, and arguably aren't really 'distortions' in so much a physical sense as they are in a VISUAL sense (lensing effect).
Yeah, a simple J-Turn is done all the time IRL, especially in tournaments, that part isn't hard.
We see it in automotive drifting / boating and numerous other piloted vehicle activites IRL.
As I said, its possible that what we saw aren't actual distortions of a physical nature but rather nothing more than a lensing effect (an after-image that a field leaves passing through a region of space).
Remember that Warp particles are a thing, and ships leave a warp trail behind, so it would likely be more akin to an exhaust that can be tracked, but otherwise doesn't in itself cause damage.
That could be one interpretation, but how much you warp space by is usually that is measured in "Cochranes (unit)". And we know that Warp Drives can cause Subspace Distortions that affect normal space.
Automation would PROBABLY have safeties in place to prevent those things in general, but those safeties can obviously/probably be disabled when performing specific manoeuvres (especially if its written into the manoeuvre).
You can tell a computer to execute a task while disabling safeties after all. Its been done before... it may complain, but all you need to do is 'override' before you begin and you're good.
But remember, sometimes programming the ship to execute a dangerous manuever might not always be the best choice.
Remember when the Enterprise-D got caught in "Booby Trap", it needed to manuever out of the asteroid field. No matter how good the computer simulation was at piloting the Enterprise-D out of the Mine-Field, it was still better to have Captain Jean-Luc Picard pilot the ship manually and to account for any variables himself using his natural intuition, especially given how he manuevered the Galaxy Class so nimbly around that giant Asteroid.
So while having computers do that is all well and good, I'll leave that for Drones / AI Helper Ships.
I still prefer human pilots =D when controlling a ship that I'm in.
Maybe, it depends on how the writing staff interprets the "Warp Drive" to function.
Yeah, a simple J-Turn is done all the time IRL, especially in tournaments, that part isn't hard.
We see it in automotive drifting / boating and numerous other piloted vehicle activites IRL.
That could be one interpretation, but how much you warp space by is usually that is measured in "Cochranes (unit)". And we know that Warp Drives can cause Subspace Distortions that affect normal space.
It could be treated like the wake of a motor boat or jet engine, something that goes by quickly and easily dissipates over time in the short term.
But remember, sometimes programming the ship to execute a dangerous manuever might not always be the best choice.
Remember when the Enterprise-D got caught in "Booby Trap", it needed to manuever out of the asteroid field. No matter how good the computer simulation was at piloting the Enterprise-D out of the Mine-Field, it was still better to have Captain Jean-Luc Picard pilot the ship manually and to account for any variables himself using his natural intuition, especially given how he manuevered the Galaxy Class so nimbly around that giant Asteroid.
So while having computers do that is all well and good, I'll leave that for Drones / AI Helper Ships.
I still prefer human pilots =D when controlling a ship that I'm in.
Human pilots are good for certain things... but definitely not for everything.
Even when VOY was doing course corrections to avoid subspace vacules in 'Fury' episode, tom was surprised Janeaway wants to use auto-navigation the whole way, she simply told him: 'No offense Tom, but the computer can calculate vectors a little faster than you can'.
A 'little' being an understatement since we're dealing with computers that can perform ridiculous amounts of calculations per nanosecond.
Even LLM's today come up with answers/solutions thousands to millions of times faster than humans do, and auto-pilot is used throughout the aerospace industry.
In fact, autopilots today are used majority of the time:
Trek's 'insistence' on doing things manually some of the time really makes 0 sense to me.
Situations that are actually perfect for auto-navigation with superluminal computing are using manual flying.
In combat, sure, auto-navigation could be affected by damaged systems, but even in these instances it would likely be a combination of both automation and manual flying (with the biological pilot taking over if the systems are damaged).
Starships are a heck of a lot more complicated pieces of machinery, and for that you need extreme levels of precision that most of the time can actually be done by a computer - otherwise, they'd never get anywhere.
You do know that all IRL Modern AirLiner Auto-Pilots are just flying between pre-programmed Way-Points, right?
There's not much logic in there other than fly between Way-Point A,B,C,D,etc,...
Anytime there's a serious situation, the pilots need to get involved.
All those examples shared has no bent space time in front or rear of the ship at FTL. We don't see it because it doesn't happen unless you are in the Kelvinverse.
It seems that the Plasma Torpedo has ~2 minute existence time before dissipating (Better/more apt name for it is a "Plasma Cannon Ball") given that it seems to be a Orb of Plasma w/o using any physical Torpedo to encase the warhead or guide it. That's a pretty long time to exist for such a massive ball of glowing hot plasma traveling in space.
The Plasma Torpedo chased the Enterprise for 2 minutes before dissipating. After that encounter, the Enterprise stays out of range of the Romulan BOP while saturating the volume of space the Romulan is cloaked in with her proximity phasers.
DECIUS: How, Commander. How?
COMMANDER: He's a sorcerer, that one. He reads the thoughts in my brain. Our fuel supply all but gone and he stays out of reach.
According to Resurrected StarShips: "Battle Analysis", the Orion Craft gets cloes to the USS Enterprise, matches Warp Speed, fires, than accelerates to a Higher Warp Speed and continues to do this repeatedly.
Kirk baits the Orion Ship by going back to Normal Speed and cuts power to pretend they're dead in the water and fires at Orions as it jumps back to Normal space.
Any Long Range shots misses because the Orions are accelerating at Warp to a higher Warp Speed.
That isn't what happens in the "Journey to Babel".
For example, the Orion at Warp 8 fires on the Enterprise as she passes by and then turns around and repeats. Enterprise is unable to successfully hit the much faster Orion as they pass each other. An advantage of FTL combat if you have the faster ship.
CHEKOV: Captain, the alien ship has changed course and speed. Moving directly toward us at warp eight.
KIRK: Bring the prisoner to the bridge. Deflectors on. Red Alert. Phasers stand by to fire on my order.
CHEKOV: Aye, sir. Shields on. Phasers manned and ready, sir.
KIRK: Chekov, take over Spock's scanners.
CHEKOV: Aye, sir.
(The little light flashes past and the Enterprise rocks.)
KIRK: Target, Mister Chekov.
CHEKOV: Moving away. Turning now. He's coming around again.
KIRK: Fire as he passes, Ensign.
CHEKOV: A clean miss, sir.
KIRK: Report on his weaponry, Mister Chekov.
CHEKOV: Sensors record standard phasers, sir.
KIRK: Standard phasers. Good. They may have more speed, but they're not giants.
And the Orion is hit while still FTL. We do not know if the Enterprise is drifting at FTL or STL.
CHEKOV: We're starting to drift, sir. Shall I hold her on course?
KIRK: No. Stand by your phasers, Mister Chekov.
CHEKOV: Aye, sir. Phasers standing by. He's just hovering out there, sir.
KIRK: Looking us over. We're dead as far as he knows.
THELEV: You're baiting him. You're trying to lure him in.
CHEKOV: Here he comes. Range decreasing. Speed dropping close to sublight.
KIRK: Hold your fire, Mister Chekov.
CHEKOV: Phasers locked on target. Range closing. Seventy five thousand kilometres.
They had a wargame exercise earlier and the Enterprise was declared winner.
SPOCK: Captain, sensors report two contacts now. One on the port bow, one on the stern. Distance, two hundred thousand kilometres and closing.
KIRK: Identification.
CHEKOV: Captain, the M-5 unit has already identified the vessels as Federation starships Excalibur and Lexington.
SPOCK: We are not scheduled for war games in this area. This may be a surprise attack as a problem for the M-5.
UHURA: Priority message coming in, sir.
KIRK: Put it on audio.
WESLEY [OC]: Enterprise from Commodore Wesley aboard the USS Lexington. This is an unscheduled M-5 drill. Repeat, this is an M-5 drill. Enterprise, acknowledge on this frequency.
KIRK: Acknowledge, Lieutenant.
UHURA: M-5 has acknowledged for us, sir.
KIRK: Then go to Red Alert.
UHURA: Aye, sir. Captain, M-5 has
KIRK: Already sounded the Red Alert. All right, Mister Sulu, phasers one one hundredth power. No damage potential, just enough to nudge them.
SULU: Phasers one one hundredth power, sir.
SPOCK: Phaser hit on port deflector four, Captain.
SULU: Speed increasing to warp three. Turning now to one one two mark five.Phasers locking on target, sir.
CHEKOV: Enemy vessel closing with us.
SULU: Main phasers firing. A hit, sir. Two more.
CHEKOV: Changing course to two eight mark four two.
SULU: Phasers firing again.
CHEKOV: Turning to one one three mark five. Warp four speed.
SULU: Firing again.
SPOCK: Attacking vessels are moving off.
CHEKOV: Moving back to original course and speed.
KIRK: Report on damage sustained in mock attack.
SPOCK: Minor hit on deflector screen four. No appreciable damage.
Just because your Beam Projectiles is limited to the "Speed of Light" while in Normal Space doesn't mean it can't be "Useful" in FTL combat if employed creatively or even in a realistic manner.
Leading the target and firing your beams and having the enemy run into them is a practical thing. When you're at FTL speeds, the higher speed you are, the less manueverability you should have at FTL.
Just lead the target by several Light-MilliSeconds and you should be fine.
Logically, if you are at warp speed and fired a light-speed energy beam straight ahead you will run into your own beam. Either immediately or once it exits your warp bubble. And if you are using an Alcubierre drive nothing can be sent forward so you can't even see where you are going or shooting at.
TNG gets around this by suggesting an annular confinement beam or fan theories suggest jacketing the beam in its own warp field or some variation. But it is very short range as depicted in Voyager. And obviously no Alcubierre behaviors are present in TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT.
Dialogue from Star Trek. You'll notice that the Enterprise at Warp can only scan the arrival location to see what is happening by relying on communications from the fleet that arrived or from Vulcan or Romulan comms.
SPOCK: The Cadet's logic is sound. And Lieutenant Uhura is unmatched in xenolinguistics, we would be wise to accept her conclusion.
PIKE: Scan Vulcan space, check for any transmissions in Romulan.
MALE LIEUTENANT: Sir, I'm not sure I can distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan.
PIKE: (to Uhura) What about you? Do you speak Romulan, Cadet?
UHURA: Uhura. All three dialects, sir.
PIKE: Uhura, relieve the lieutenant.
UHURA: Yes sir.
PIKE: Hannity, hail the USS Truman.
HANNITY: All the other ships are out of warp, sir, and have arrived at Vulcan, but we seemed to have lost all contact.
UHURA: Sir, I pick up no Romulan transmission, or transmission of any kind in the area.
And in Star Trek Into Darkness, the Enterprise crew fully believes they are immune to attack while at warp.
MCCOY: Well, at least we're moving again.
KHAN: If you think you're safe at warp, you're wrong.
...
KIRK: Lieutenant Uhura, contact Starfleet. Tell them we were pursued into the Neutral Zone by an unmarked Federation ship.
UHURA: Comms are down, sir.
CAROL: Permission to come on the bridge.
KIRK: Doctor Marcus.
CAROL: He's gonna catch up with us, and when he does, the only thing that's going to stop him destroying this ship is me, so you have to let me talk to him.
KIRK: Carol, we're at warp. He can't catch up with us.
CAROL: Yes, he can. He's been developing a ship that has advanced warp capabilities, and I
SULU: Captain! I'm getting a reading I don't understand.
Assuming that the VFX in all the various Series Portrayals are relatively accurate, that means Beam Weaponry that is normally limited to the "Speed of Light" can be used at Long Distances while at FTL.
TOS phasers and disruptors were never stated to be limited to the speed of light which is why they could fight at long range while at FTL. The light speed limit wasn't introduced until TNG and later and we see a significantly shortened range and a switch to using torpedoes.
::shrugs:: I've never watched the TOS/TAS era shows, so like I've said, there is a gap in my knowledge, but I rely on more experienced TOS fans and various YT videos to explain what happened back then.
But they were "Up Close & Personal" when that happened. The USS Vengeance basically got so close to the USS Enterprise, that he might as well have been in kissing distance, metaphorically speaking.
It is the only example that has the beams curving through space to hit the other ship at warp and likely the only current example of a beam being deflected by a warp field which has not occurred in any of the other examples of FTL combat from TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT.
10 km is still pretty close well, within the range of Warp Fields inter-mingling that you should be able to fire things at each other w/o causing too much of a distortion given the relative short distances.
Also, Voyager was firing a solid continuous beam at the Dreadnought, where was USS Vengeance were firing bolts.
I wonder if the type of beams being fired matters for how much distortion gets affected?
The USS Cerritos voluntarily exited the Warp Field after it ejected the Warp Core by banking 'Hard to StarBoard' and letting the AI ships & Exploding Warp Core pass right by.
BOIMLER: Better than getting ripped apart by photon torpedoes.
Once the warp core is ejected the Cerritos uncontrollably veers to the right and out of the warp tunnel. You can clearly see the trailing ships in the same warp tunnel.
We do know that Warp Sustainers on Torpedoes can take the Warp Field Energy and continue it's Warp Glide, long after it exits the Warp Field of it's Mother Ship.
Assuming Warp Fields don't just magically turn off the moment you decide to exit but continue for a short amount of time after you turn off the Warp Engines, like a Wave in water that naturally dissipates and evens out over time, that could explain why they look like they're exiting a tunnel. The Warp Field is still distorting and moving about once you decide to exit, but the amount of Spatial Distortion will weaken over time in short order since there are no Warp Engines continuing the Spatial Distortion, so things will return to normal over time very quickly after you leave warp. There might be a short distance after a vessel exits Warp Drive that a Warp Wake will still register on sensors as to its last known vector of travel at FTL that is easy to spot via sensors.
But my situation only applies to a very "specific set of circumstances"; long distance beam travel from far away, towards the target that is moving at FTL speeds using Warp Drive.
It's not applicable to any/every situation, especially if you're at STL.
Every major leap in VFX era & attempted portrayal, they seem to get closer to what we think it would "Accurately Look like".
Remember in the ST:Beyond shot of the Enterprise at Warp, it was from the perspective of somebody far away, well outside the ships warp bubble looking at the ship while it's traveling.
What you and I think warp should accurately look like are very different based on this discussion. The only truth is that it'll look like whatever the next Star Trek production likes it to look like.
But Vengeance relied almost entirely on Beam Bolts, while TNG era ships prefer continuous "LASER-like" Directed Particle Beams.
The type of Beam Projectile you use might have serious effects as to how the Warp Field interacts with it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So with future knowledge / scientific discovery, who knows when all those other issues will get resolved by the time that Warp Travel is as common as it is for humans to fly on aircraft like odern day commercial air travel.
From the current portrayals in ST about basic Warp Travel, those problems seem to have been largely resolved.
They can send Subspace Signals at nearly any time, nobody gets fried by Hawking Radiation. Most of the major issues have been long since solved.
There aren't any issues to resolve since Star Trek already has FTL with Warp Drive. We don't hear about Hawking Radiation and other Alcubierre problems because they don't use an Alcubierre drive. At this time the Kelvinverse and maybe new shows like Disco/SNW/Lower Decks/Picard borrows some of the visual attributes of it but they would paint themselves in a story-writing corner if they said Warp Drive was based on Alcubierre and had dealt with issues which later on might be proven wrong or nonsensical.
But given that it hasn't been properly portrayed in the modern era, I thought it was a major problem. I guess it isn't since TOS allows long range combat at FTL speeds.
Just lead your target?
10,000 km would definitely be considered "Long Range", but heck, anything outside of 10 km should be well outside the Warp Field Distortion Lobe that protrudes around the Warp Bubble.
Based on what we see in ENT, anything outside of 100m is well outside of the Warp Bubble. There isn't even any visual of a Warp Field Distortion beyond that.
ST:TNG Technical Manual & ST:TNG USS Enterprise-D NCC-1701-D Illustrated Hand Book, both reference Canon Supplementary Material that was released as the shows were released.
EagleMoss did a "Great Job" with the Illustrated Hand Book, I'd recommend it for any Trekkie.
Ah, that's what I expected. In TNG/ENT/VOY/DS9 it would seem that STL combat varies by the firing platform's power, the weapon and technology.
For your reference:
TNG's "The Wounded" shows that phaser and photon torpedo range of the Phoenix and Cardassian Warship to be short of 300,000 Km. Screenshot below shows both ships at 300,000 Km according dialogue. And yes, the Cardassians outrange the Phoenix.
Next we see the Phoenix firing (and destroying the Cardassian Warship) with torpedoes.
and last, Phoenix firing and destroying a Cardassian Supply ship running with high power subspace fields.
This is probably the last time you'll see any major long-distance combat in TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT with maybe the exception of DS9's "By Inferno's Light". In that episode Defiant hits the Yukon with an unknown weapon at a distance outside of Defiant's tractor beam range. They even had to warp over to the sun to tractor the Yukon so it seemed to be a bit of a distance.
That was from a much earlier TNG era where VFX was far more limited in what it could do on a TV's VFX budget.
Just because you don't see it with your naked eye on our Visible Light Spectrum, doesn't mean it doesn't occur.
Just like IR light & UV light that constantly hits earth in reduced intensity during the day, doesn't mean it doesn't occur and with the "Right Tools", we can see it properly.
I'm sure with the right depiction from the right angle, we can show that it does occur like in ST:Beyond.
In your head canon, sure. But if you went back in time and changed the VFX to match your imagination you would still need to alter the scripts and the story as they do not support the notion that warp fields deflect weapons fire. Instead, just play in the Kelvinverse or the newest trek series.
But in "Very Close" range and well within the Warp Field Distortion Wake.
That's very much in-line with what I've been presenting as acceptable combat range w/o having to do fancy calculations on the target's Warp Field.
Or it could be realistically limited to VFX budgets & scripts of the time.
TV shows are notoriously tight on VFX budgets & deadlines.
Something as complex as long distance FTL beam battles is "Hard to Portray" w/o alot of time/effort to plan it out and to make it "Make Sense" to the average viewer.
Ironically, limited VFX budgets probably pushed TOS to do long range FTL combat because you don't need to show both ships on the screen at the same time
Like I said before, it's limitations of the VFX capabilities of those era of production.
And just because you can't see it with the naked eye in the visible spectrum, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
As we've seen in modern productions, with ST:Beyond, you can show it happening in the correct context when you want to.
I think we can discern whether a phaser beam bends around some warp field distortion or not should the VFX of the past choose to show it. It only shows up in the Kelvinverse at this time.
Then it's a good thing we have Bussard Collectors to collect those energetic particles ahead of us =D.
We wouldn't want to destroy the objects in local space once we exit Warp.
It's best we vacuum up all those stray particles. I'm sure the UFP/StarFleet would want to maintain safe FTL travel standards for everybody.
You did read the earlier part that particles can't reach the ship behind the front of the Alcubierre bubble? Navigational Deflectors don't work and Bussard Collectors can't pull the particles through. That is why Star Trek will likely never claim there warp is an Alcubierre Warp. It breaks Star Trek stuff.
Some of the more recent series direclty relate to the TNG-era or takes place in it.
ST:Picard, ST:Lower Decks, perhps ST:Legacy one day.
Assuming that the "Laws of Physics" is consistent across the ST:Universe, no matter which Dimension or Quantum Reality we're viewing, the basic principles should still work/apply no matter if it's a newer or older series. While older series might not have discussed them on screen, the terminology and knowledge would've been discussed in universe by relevant parties.
Thanks to SNW's "Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow" we know that whatever we're watching now for ST: Picard, Lower Decks, SNW is altered from the previous timelines and is subject to change at anytime. The "Laws of Physics" is no longer consistent and follows whatever the current Star Trek production wants to do, IMHO.
All those examples shared has no bent space time in front or rear of the ship at FTL. We don't see it because it doesn't happen unless you are in the Kelvinverse.
The Plasma Torpedo chased the Enterprise for 2 minutes before dissipating. After that encounter, the Enterprise stays out of range of the Romulan BOP while saturating the volume of space the Romulan is cloaked in with her proximity phasers.
DECIUS: How, Commander. How?
COMMANDER: He's a sorcerer, that one. He reads the thoughts in my brain. Our fuel supply all but gone and he stays out of reach.
Basically Conical Shotgun Spread mode, something I wish later Trek Series would use when hunting for "Cloaked Vessels".
I wish in ST Nemesis they would use it to hunt for the Scimitar instead of randomly firing out phasers.
That isn't what happens in the "Journey to Babel".
For example, the Orion at Warp 8 fires on the Enterprise as she passes by and then turns around and repeats. Enterprise is unable to successfully hit the much faster Orion as they pass each other. An advantage of FTL combat if you have the faster ship.
CHEKOV: Captain, the alien ship has changed course and speed. Moving directly toward us at warp eight.
KIRK: Bring the prisoner to the bridge. Deflectors on. Red Alert. Phasers stand by to fire on my order.
CHEKOV: Aye, sir. Shields on. Phasers manned and ready, sir.
KIRK: Chekov, take over Spock's scanners.
CHEKOV: Aye, sir.
(The little light flashes past and the Enterprise rocks.)
KIRK: Target, Mister Chekov.
CHEKOV: Moving away. Turning now. He's coming around again.
KIRK: Fire as he passes, Ensign.
CHEKOV: A clean miss, sir.
KIRK: Report on his weaponry, Mister Chekov.
CHEKOV: Sensors record standard phasers, sir.
KIRK: Standard phasers. Good. They may have more speed, but they're not giants.
And the Orion is hit while still FTL. We do not know if the Enterprise is drifting at FTL or STL.
CHEKOV: We're starting to drift, sir. Shall I hold her on course?
KIRK: No. Stand by your phasers, Mister Chekov.
CHEKOV: Aye, sir. Phasers standing by. He's just hovering out there, sir.
KIRK: Looking us over. We're dead as far as he knows.
THELEV: You're baiting him. You're trying to lure him in.
CHEKOV: Here he comes. Range decreasing. Speed dropping close to sublight.
KIRK: Hold your fire, Mister Chekov.
CHEKOV: Phasers locked on target. Range closing. Seventy five thousand kilometres.
They had a wargame exercise earlier and the Enterprise was declared winner.
SPOCK: Captain, sensors report two contacts now. One on the port bow, one on the stern. Distance, two hundred thousand kilometres and closing.
KIRK: Identification.
CHEKOV: Captain, the M-5 unit has already identified the vessels as Federation starships Excalibur and Lexington.
SPOCK: We are not scheduled for war games in this area. This may be a surprise attack as a problem for the M-5.
UHURA: Priority message coming in, sir.
KIRK: Put it on audio.
WESLEY [OC]: Enterprise from Commodore Wesley aboard the USS Lexington. This is an unscheduled M-5 drill. Repeat, this is an M-5 drill. Enterprise, acknowledge on this frequency.
KIRK: Acknowledge, Lieutenant.
UHURA: M-5 has acknowledged for us, sir.
KIRK: Then go to Red Alert.
UHURA: Aye, sir. Captain, M-5 has
KIRK: Already sounded the Red Alert. All right, Mister Sulu, phasers one one hundredth power. No damage potential, just enough to nudge them.
SULU: Phasers one one hundredth power, sir.
SPOCK: Phaser hit on port deflector four, Captain.
SULU: Speed increasing to warp three. Turning now to one one two mark five.Phasers locking on target, sir.
CHEKOV: Enemy vessel closing with us.
SULU: Main phasers firing. A hit, sir. Two more.
CHEKOV: Changing course to two eight mark four two.
SULU: Phasers firing again.
CHEKOV: Turning to one one three mark five. Warp four speed.
SULU: Firing again.
SPOCK: Attacking vessels are moving off.
CHEKOV: Moving back to original course and speed.
KIRK: Report on damage sustained in mock attack.
SPOCK: Minor hit on deflector screen four. No appreciable damage.
Logically, if you are at warp speed and fired a light-speed energy beam straight ahead you will run into your own beam. Either immediately or once it exits your warp bubble. And if you are using an Alcubierre drive nothing can be sent forward so you can't even see where you are going or shooting at.
TNG gets around this by suggesting an annular confinement beam or fan theories suggest jacketing the beam in its own warp field or some variation. But it is very short range as depicted in Voyager. And obviously no Alcubierre behaviors are present in TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT.
Fair enough, so what do you suggest? Beams extended by the Warp Field so that it can function normally?
Beams coated in a Warp Field like the Warp Sustainers on a Torpedo?
Dialogue from Star Trek. You'll notice that the Enterprise at Warp can only scan the arrival location to see what is happening by relying on communications from the fleet that arrived or from Vulcan or Romulan comms.
SPOCK: The Cadet's logic is sound. And Lieutenant Uhura is unmatched in xenolinguistics, we would be wise to accept her conclusion.
PIKE: Scan Vulcan space, check for any transmissions in Romulan.
MALE LIEUTENANT: Sir, I'm not sure I can distinguish the Romulan language from Vulcan.
PIKE: (to Uhura) What about you? Do you speak Romulan, Cadet?
UHURA: Uhura. All three dialects, sir.
PIKE: Uhura, relieve the lieutenant.
UHURA: Yes sir.
PIKE: Hannity, hail the USS Truman.
HANNITY: All the other ships are out of warp, sir, and have arrived at Vulcan, but we seemed to have lost all contact.
UHURA: Sir, I pick up no Romulan transmission, or transmission of any kind in the area.
And in Star Trek Into Darkness, the Enterprise crew fully believes they are immune to attack while at warp.
MCCOY: Well, at least we're moving again.
KHAN: If you think you're safe at warp, you're wrong.
...
KIRK: Lieutenant Uhura, contact Starfleet. Tell them we were pursued into the Neutral Zone by an unmarked Federation ship.
UHURA: Comms are down, sir.
CAROL: Permission to come on the bridge.
KIRK: Doctor Marcus.
CAROL: He's gonna catch up with us, and when he does, the only thing that's going to stop him destroying this ship is me, so you have to let me talk to him.
KIRK: Carol, we're at warp. He can't catch up with us.
CAROL: Yes, he can. He's been developing a ship that has advanced warp capabilities, and I
SULU: Captain! I'm getting a reading I don't understand.
TOS phasers and disruptors were never stated to be limited to the speed of light which is why they could fight at long range while at FTL. The light speed limit wasn't introduced until TNG and later and we see a significantly shortened range and a switch to using torpedoes.
So what's your opinion, should they bring back Long-Distance FTL beam battles, or should they stick with the TNG limitations?
What's your personal feelings about it?
It is the only example that has the beams curving through space to hit the other ship at warp and likely the only current example of a beam being deflected by a warp field which has not occurred in any of the other examples of FTL combat from TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT.
So, IYO, should the distortions be implemented at all, or just limited to the Kelvin-verse?
If we needed a consistent answer to apply to all future portrayals of ST, regardless of which section of the Trek Multi-Verse we're in.
That's what almost all bolts are, "Very Short Beams that are deliberately cut-off".
From what I can remember of the Voyager episode, they weren't firing on the Vessels aft side where the Warp Field would be expanding, it was largely broad-side from a more Fore or Aft angle to another.
BOIMLER: Better than getting ripped apart by photon torpedoes.
Once the warp core is ejected the Cerritos uncontrollably veers to the right and out of the warp tunnel. You can clearly see the trailing ships in the same warp tunnel.
You're right, I rewatched that scene again, they were tumbling once they were out of the Warp Field after they banked hard to StarBoard. They were tumbling around in normal space once they exited Warp Speeds.
Well, different combat environments & situations have different rule sets to abide by. I'm just trying to figure out what is a consistent rule set to work with in this very specific scenario.
What you and I think warp should accurately look like are very different based on this discussion. The only truth is that it'll look like whatever the next Star Trek production likes it to look like.
There aren't any issues to resolve since Star Trek already has FTL with Warp Drive. We don't hear about Hawking Radiation and other Alcubierre problems because they don't use an Alcubierre drive. At this time the Kelvinverse and maybe new shows like Disco/SNW/Lower Decks/Picard borrows some of the visual attributes of it but they would paint themselves in a story-writing corner if they said Warp Drive was based on Alcubierre and had dealt with issues which later on might be proven wrong or nonsensical.
Fair enough, while they may borrow elements of the Alcubierre drive, they definitely aren't using that specific form of Warp Drive.
It's their own proprietary flavor.
Based on what we see in ENT, anything outside of 100m is well outside of the Warp Bubble. There isn't even any visual of a Warp Field Distortion beyond that.
I watched the scene again, it's outside of 80m distance between the two vessels before Warp Field contact.
On the Sensor Reading that is showing a Orthographic side view, the Warp Field Distortion Wake was trailing the vessel directly behind the Warp Nacelles.
They hold at 50 meters apart from each other while the NX-02 Columbia is upside down of the other vessel and transfering Tucker via the tether.
Ah, that's what I expected. In TNG/ENT/VOY/DS9 it would seem that STL combat varies by the firing platform's power, the weapon and technology.
For your reference:
TNG's "The Wounded" shows that phaser and photon torpedo range of the Phoenix and Cardassian Warship to be short of 300,000 Km.
This is probably the last time you'll see any major long-distance combat in TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT with maybe the exception of DS9's "By Inferno's Light". In that episode Defiant hits the Yukon with an unknown weapon at a distance outside of Defiant's tractor beam range. They even had to warp over to the sun to tractor the Yukon so it seemed to be a bit of a distance.
In your head canon, sure. But if you went back in time and changed the VFX to match your imagination you would still need to alter the scripts and the story as they do not support the notion that warp fields deflect weapons fire. Instead, just play in the Kelvinverse or the newest trek series.
So what would you suggest as a "Consistent rule" across all the Trek-verse?
No Warp Field Distortion during FTL that could potentially deflect beams unless Up close and personal with Beam Bolt shots and on a vessels aft section?
We should allow long-range FTL Beam Battles like in TOS? Just give a hand-waive Trek-no-Babble excuse as to why the Beams are moving at FTL speeds?
Ok fine. We'll limit the distortions to up close and personal like in ST:ID. But only directly on the aft end of the vessel, and only if it's with Non LASER like Beam Projectiles.
We'll treat it like the wake of a Motor Boat, where the further away you are, the less distortion you'll have to deal with.
Ironically, limited VFX budgets probably pushed TOS to do long range FTL combat because you don't need to show both ships on the screen at the same time
I think we can discern whether a phaser beam bends around some warp field distortion or not should the VFX of the past choose to show it. It only shows up in the Kelvinverse at this time.
You did read the earlier part that particles can't reach the ship behind the front of the Alcubierre bubble? Navigational Deflectors don't work and Bussard Collectors can't pull the particles through. That is why Star Trek will likely never claim there warp is an Alcubierre Warp. It breaks Star Trek stuff.
Thanks to SNW's "Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow" we know that whatever we're watching now for ST: Picard, Lower Decks, SNW is altered from the previous timelines and is subject to change at anytime. The "Laws of Physics" is no longer consistent and follows whatever the current Star Trek production wants to do, IMHO.
You mean the VFX portrayal would change based on who's in charge. Since ST doesn't seem to have dedicated Staff to keep ST visual portrayals being consistent across all mediums.
I know Star Wars has somebody to maintain the Lore/Canon on their side.
