Warp 1 =/= The Speed of Light, So How Fast Are They Going? (Also Stellar Cartography)

[Christopher]

It's been a while since I saw that movie, but I think the implication was that they were travelling to a 1980s understanding of the galaxy's core.

Oh, gods, no, it was incredibly stupid and ignorant of astronomy by much earlier than 1980s standards. Even aside from the absurdity of getting there faster than you could drive to the airport, we knew by the publication of my 1985 college astronomy textbook that the center of the galaxy probably contained a supermassive black hole, although admittedly it wasn't solidly verified until the 2000s.

Same as with the two episodes of TOS where they literally travel to the galactic edge. People like to rationalize by saying that they travelled to the "upper" or "lower" edge of the galaxy, but here to I think the episode implies the lateral edge.

Probably, since TOS did tend to assume that starships traveled much deeper into the galaxy than later retcons would have it. Basically it's DS9's fault -- initially the station was supposed to be far out on the fringe of the Federation, but then they started doing stories where travel to Earth, or from Klingon to Cardassian space, was a matter of days, so by the time Star Charts came out, the idea of a much smaller Federation took hold.

But that's not a matter of real-world astronomical knowledge, just a change in the fictional assumptions. Heck, TOS was well ahead of the curve for SFTV in its astronomical literacy. At least it knew what a galaxy was, unlike Battlestar Galactica a decade later where the fleet was shown "leaving its home galaxy" and entering a neighboring one with no separation between them, as if it were the equivalent of crossing a state line -- and where, in the finale, they claimed they'd traveled through several galaxies in approximately one year while traveling at a maximum of the speed of light.

So no, ST V cannot be let off the hook as a product of its time. It was just woefully dumb, in comparison to both contemporary scientific knowledge and prior Trek continuity.

 

[Verteron]

The S.S. Yorktown in the original notes had a "maximum velocity .73 of one light year per hour." We saw the TOS Enterprise cross long distances. It gets shoved 500 parsecs in "Arena" and it's no biggie. The film Enterprise continued that, going to the centre of the galaxy and other star systems rapidly. If anything TNG slowed them down.

Yeah indeed. You don't want to make speed too fast. Being able to get from home port at Earth to battle in 10 minutes kinda limits your story options. You need suspense. Some of the best bits of 'old' Trek are when the ship is rushing somewhere, or chasing someone, or getting chased. It really builds tension.

Minor spoiler for post-Voyager era:

Spoiler

I think this is why we haven't seen much of Quantum Slipstream drive in any of the series set long after Voyager's return. Especially if all your rival powers are limited to warp speed still, it'd be a hugely uneven playing field until they managed some espionage and a copy, it would just take the teeth out of a lot of storytelling options, if you can immediately show up with half of Starfleet.

More egregious spoiler for Picard S1:

Spoiler

Though I do wonder if the Inquiry class (the 'copy and paste' fleet) might have slipstream. As a prototype rapid reaction force it'd be nifty to be able to send them en masse to wherever there might be a problem

 

[drt]

More egregious spoiler for Picard S1:

Spoiler

Though I do wonder if the Inquiry class (the 'copy and paste' fleet) might have slipstream. As a prototype rapid reaction force it'd be nifty to be able to send them en masse to wherever there might be a problem

Not a bad assumption, on Prodigy, which is set twenty years earlier, the USS Dauntless has a slipstream drive.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'd also like to see a map of the alpha quadrant, with all the big major worlds highlighted. But that doesn't exist...right?

You want Star Trek Star Charts, or the more recent re-release Stellar Cartography. They're the maps the current shows use in all their graphics.

There's also Star Trek Maps from the 80's and all the way back to the start, Franz Jospeh Schnaubelt's Star Fleet Technical Manual from the 70's has a map of local space. These ones are very different from the above ones, and the long story boils down to money, Gene Roddenberry's cut not being what he wanted and having lots of Star Trek minutae reimagined in the 90's so new books invalidated the old ones he wasn't getting enough $$$ from. Supposedly.

Searching the above names may or may not take you to online versions, but I cannot say for sure since it's somewhat dubious.

I should warn, Trek moves at the speed of plot, always has and always will. Here's a somewhat dated example, showing some incongruent speeds and distances:

 

[Christopher]

That map from the TNG Technical Journal is actually adapted from a map in the TNG Writers' Technical Manual, a production document for writers, written and illustrated by Rick Sternbach & Michael Okuda. It predates the quadrant system that was introduced in "The Price," and reflects an era when they assumed the Federation spread much, much farther through the galaxy, extending through two adjacent spiral arms. By Star Charts assumptions, the UFP, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and even Tholians and Breen would all fit in that yellow dot on F. King Daniel's map.

 

[Verteron]

Not a bad assumption, on Prodigy, which is set twenty years earlier, the USS Dauntless has a slipstream drive.

Spoilers for late 24th / early 25th century / 32nd century:

Spoiler

Yeah, that too. Seems reasonable to me to assume the Dauntless is part of a very limited run of slipstream capable vessels at that point, Starfleet are probably keeping it highly classified at that point to avoid upsetting the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant before they have it completely understood and working reliably.

It's supremely advanced tech based on science that the Alpha Quadrant powers had no idea was even possible until it landed in their laps. Voyager got lucky but I suspect their slipstream travel permanently damages hulls unless specifically adapted, Starfleet engineers would want to avoid these problems before going into mass production, which could take decades more given how much of a giant leap Slipstream is over Warp travel.

Just frustrates me that it's barely even mentioned in the 32nd century, I mean perhaps warp/transwarp caught up to the speeds it can achieve by then, but it's disappointing.

 

[at Quark's]

I could live with that much smaller Federation (in relation to the size of the galaxy at least). The galaxy is mindboggingly huge and some Star Trek scripts seem to seriously underestimate that.

 

[Verteron]

I could live with that much smaller Federation (in relation to the size of the galaxy at least). The galaxy is mindboggingly huge and some Star Trek scripts seem to seriously underestimate that.

Indeed. There are a bit over 250,000 stars within 250 light years of Sol.

And that's less than 0.5 % of the Milky Way's total diameter.

Plenty of room for all our Star Trek civilisations and adventures.

 

[Annorax849]

In my mind, Warp is the number to the fifth power (until you get close to 10), and Voyager usually went at Warp 4. Everything makes more sense that way.

 

[David cgc]

If that was true then all pf Spock/Data's estimations on travel time were rubbish.

Spock and Data are exactly the two characters who would be able to calculate (or recall from pre-plotted tables) actual travel-times based on optimal routing without having a professional navigator plot a course.

 

[publiusr]

You want Star Trek Star Charts, or the more recent re-release Stellar Cartography.

I should warn, Trek moves at the speed of plot, always has and always will. Here's a somewhat dated example, showing some incongruent speeds and distances:

I might have some of that as space lanes laid down long ago that the Feds stumbled into.

 

[Henoch]

I might have some of that as space lanes laid down long ago that the Feds stumbled into.

Additional, I have them (warp drive civilizations) capable of building their own space lanes between important designations. They deposit space buoys along a path; the buoy generates a powerful (subspace?) directional magnetic field that overlaps with the next buoy. We learn in The Galileo Seven and WNMHGB that magnetic space storms geometrically multiply the speed of (warp drive?) ships, so, magnetics may be the key. These buoys could be dual purpose and also generate the subspace radio network. YMMV .

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You want Star Trek Star Charts, or the more recent re-release Stellar Cartography. They're the maps the current shows use in all their graphics.

There's also Star Trek Maps from the 80's and all the way back to the start, Franz Jospeh Schnaubelt's Star Fleet Technical Manual from the 70's has a map of local space. These ones are very different from the above ones, and the long story boils down to money, Gene Roddenberry's cut not being what he wanted and having lots of Star Trek minutae reimagined in the 90's so new books invalidated the old ones he wasn't getting enough $$$ from. Supposedly.

Searching the above names may or may not take you to online versions, but I cannot say for sure since it's somewhat dubious.

I should warn, Trek moves at the speed of plot, always has and always will. Here's a somewhat dated example, showing some incongruent speeds and distances:

Spoiler: Large Map of the Milky Way post Voyager's return

Notice the location of "The Great Barrier" and the FAKE 'Sha Ka Ree' planet that the malevolent Alien Entity lured Sybok towards.

According to the Background Info, "The Great Barrier" has a Diameter of ~15,000 ly.
That means a Radius of ~7,500 ly.

The Bulge around the Galactic Center, I've estimated from various online sources to be ~6,500 ly in Radius or ~13,000 ly in Diameter.

Spoiler: Side Orthographic Perspective of our Milky Way Galaxy (NOTE: !Not to Scale!)

Spoiler: Here's my estimated sizes of our major Galactic Structures according to online research.

Note that "the Galactic Bulge" around the SMBH in the center of our Milky Way galaxy exists within the "Thick Disk" of our Galaxy and is part of the larger structure that is in the center of the "Thin Disk"

Our SMBH in the Milky Way Galaxy's Galactic Center is known as Sagittarious A*

The planet encountered in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier is not depicted to be at the center of the galaxy. Instead, it is at the outer edges of the energy field, some 7,000 light years away from the center.

That places the FAKE 'Sha Ka Ree' planet somewhere in between the "The Great Barrier" & the edge of the Galactic Bulge. Closer to the middle point between the two large Galactic sized structures.

I might have some of that as space lanes laid down long ago that the Feds stumbled into.

And given the more primitive technology that Kirk had in ST:V, I wouldn't be surprised if they hit a pocket of Under-Space and it accelerated their travel to the destination.

The Vaadwaur kept no written records of the Underspace, rather keeping the information committed to memory.

Most of the Under-Space routes are lost to time, so who's to say that the routes didn't expand all the way to the Alpha / Beta Quadrants?. UnderSpace literally went to Talax and Beyond from the Vaadwur HomePlanet. I wouldn't be surprised if it reached across all of the Milky Way Galaxy and that the exact locations of each Under-Space corridor was a "Very Well Kept" secret.

The tactical advantage of taking a Under-Space Corridor route and spending minimal energy resources to cover vast distances is a HUGE advantage. One that's worth hiding, especially if you commit it to memory.

Voyager was WAY more advanced the Refit Enterprise, I wouldn't be surprised if the Refit Enterprise didn't realize it got caught in the Under-Space and just thought it was traveling along normally.

That would be a good explanation as to how Kirk & crew traveled so far in such a primitive vessel.

 

[publiusr]

One publication called that the Shapley Center I think.

magnetic space storms geometrically multiply the speed of (warp drive?) ships, so, magnetics may be the key. These buoys could be dual purpose and also generate the subspace radio network. YMMV .

There may actually be something to that—at least in terms of dark energy:
https://phys.org/news/2021-09-dark-energy-scientists-possibility.amp

 

[Christopher]

One publication called that the Shapley Center I think.

More than one -- it's a real-life term for the center of the galaxy, named in honor of Harlow Shapley, the astronomer who first determined its location. The term seems to have fallen out of use in real life, though, since just about the only non-Trek references I can find are in articles commemorating Shapley's death in 1972.

In Trek, as far as I can tell, the term was first used in The Abode of Life by "Lee Correy" (aerospace engineer G. Harry Stine), then in its loose sequels Chain of Attack and The Final Nexus by Gene DeWeese.

 

[valkyrie013]

Its gotten really bad in the current iteration, pretty much treating it like Star Wars Hyperspace, where it takes literal minutes to get from planet to planet, even for shuttle craft, and is honestly, kind of irritating. I understand "Speed of Plot" but there are limits of disbelief.

Even Lower Decks had an episode where they were traveling for over a day, and it was some kind of special thing. However by Berman era math, it should take days to get to Every system, espeically for a cali class that isn't breaking any speed records.

 

[Henoch]

I have the TOS warp speed equation as v=c(wf^3)x, where x is a multiplier factor (Cochrane Variable) based off the interaction with the space/subspace environment (G). For standard space within the heliosphere of our star system, gives x=1. Strong gravity wells, magnetic fields and higher gas densities such as found near stars and planets actually lowers the variable to values less than one, for example, close orbit around our sun gives, x=~0.2. Besides just mass/gravity, other space/subspace environments (navigational hazards) are encountered in deep space that can also affect x. Such stellar events are ion/magnetic storms, dark matter/energy, time-space distortions, cosmic strings, galactic gravity tides, etc. The most “calm” or “clean” space/subspace environments (interstellar space usually found between stars) give a normal x=~18.65*. Much higher x’s can be attained in very rare conditions such as magnetic space storms, traveling inside a wormhole or a subspace tunnel which can result in x’s that are 100’s or 1000’s in values.

[*Edit. I choose this x value since GR originally provided 0.73 ly/hr for the ship’s maximum speed which I assume to be Warp Factor 7 during the Cage era. Of course, this can be adjusted by the speed of plot for any story.]

Table:
Warp Factor Speed for Space/Subspace Environments (G)

 

[JesterFace]

Fortunately warp speed and all that doesn't have to be exact math to make the stories work.
They can travel faster than light, good for them.

 

[CaptChris42]

I have the TOS warp speed equation as v=c(wf^3)x, where x is a multiplier factor (Cochrane Variable) based off the interaction with the space/subspace environment (G). For standard space within the heliosphere of our star system, gives x=1. Strong gravity wells, magnetic fields and higher gas densities such as found near stars and planets actually lowers the variable to values less than one, for example, close orbit around our sun gives, x=~0.2. Besides just mass/gravity, other space/subspace environments (navigational hazards) are encountered in deep space that can also affect x. Such stellar events are ion/magnetic storms, dark matter/energy, time-space distortions, cosmic strings, galactic gravity tides, etc. The most “calm” or “clean” space/subspace environments (interstellar space usually found between stars) give a normal x=~18.65*. Much higher x’s can be attained in very rare conditions such as magnetic space storms, traveling inside a wormhole or a subspace tunnel which can result in x’s that are 100’s or 1000’s in values.

[*Edit. I choose this x value since GR originally provided 0.73 ly/hr for the ship’s maximum speed which I assume to be Warp Factor 7 during the Cage era. Of course, this can be adjusted by the speed of plot for any story.]

Table:
Warp Factor Speed for Space/Subspace Environments (G)

Assuming this thread isn't now locked, just saying I rather like Henoch's system for Warp multipliers / Chi factor levels pretty well. Falconer's as well, pretty much. Standardizing those for RPG style use, should also be feasible.

Higher cruise speeds, in retrospect, would have served stories well, if they had wanted to sort that out earlier. Those are the pitfalls of evolving lore, though.

A post Nemesis common 'high' cruise speed of at least Warp 9.945 (4018 x c?) would likely be good Or Warp 9.95 (4183 c?) also. That being 11 to 11.45 ly a day, and still below Voyager's 15.2 a day supposed maximum.

Yet still would not fit many onscreen references, however.