Walter Koenig on Shat's Raw Nerve

[Vance]

Chekov was the hot-headed Russian kid who thinks everything was invented in Russia. Both are comic relief by and large, and are used in precisely the same way in the movie.

Actually, one of the little touches that Koenig did with Chekov (and I sadly forget the exact episode) is that he makes it clear that Pavel is just taking the piss for everyone about the 'Wussian Inwention' as a joke. Koenig embraced the joke and made it a character facet. For a day player, it was a pretty nice little addition that he got to keep.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

In the 1960's, fifty freakin' years ago, there was no such thing as "Ethics in the Workplace."

And it is because of issues like these that changes have been made in the industry to avoid drama like this. Just because it happened doesn't make it right. Just because a woman wasn't allowed to be paid the same amount of salary as her male equal in the 60s doesn't make it right. Problems like this get noticed and corrections are made. They are not "excused".

He did it because he felt (and rightly so) that the show should focus on its star. Some of the little gang of four's statements have been contradicted by Justman and Solow.

I already said that even if he did not intent to do it maliciously it still was a dick move regardless. Even if he was not aware of what he was doing was wrong, it still was dickish.

How was Star Trek not focused on Captain Kirk? The intro is spoken by the show's star. The show is about a Captain and his struggles with his crew. You're making it sound like that Kirk's role was being threatened by these four co-stars who barely had stake in the show as it is.

Seriously, now. Let's be rational here. Captain Kirk was the star and the show was his story; everything else was just ego.

Really? I never heard of this. Nimoy side of the story was that he was approached of the story idea from DC Fontana herself, and I quote:

" But that day in 1967, when she came on to the Star Trek soundstage and said ' Hey, I have an idea for a Spock love story'. I was taken aback, not only taken aback but frightened. "

It was always emphasized that the show was constantly in writing and once a script was finished, it was finished. Why would they turn around and halt production for a complete rewrite and if they did go ahead and let the actors know? Whatever the writers did really has no blame on the actor if the actor did not know.

Sohl didn't like it; changed his name on the screenplay to his pseudonym Nathan Butler. But you never hear Takei bringing up Nimoy about this humongous change to a script to benefit Nimoy. No, you hear him whining about his lines in TWOK getting cut.

Again, maybe because they didn't know.

There's three sides to a story: His story, their story, and the truth. What one has to do is find that middle ground. I find fault on all ends here but I still view Shatner as a very egotistical man. It is due to his ego that he has lasted in the entertainment industry as long as he has but it also due to that ego which had garnered him an iffy reputation in the industry for a brief period in time.

You want to take the extreme and call everyone whiners and that Shatner is the holy god of this show and everyone owes him thanks, that's fine. I like to take the approach that there's some truth to what they've said and there's some truth to what Shatner says but I'm not going to discredit them as whiners when it is obvious that what he did (in terms of script rewrites for the sake of ego) was wrong. Shatner can do whatever the hell he wants, and in this case he already has - it being 45 years ago - but that still doesn't stop me from looking at the situation and saying, " You know, that was wrong. "

Well, the main problem as I see it:

Roddenberry lied a lot to get his cast on the cheap.

I definitely agree there about Roddenberry. He gets a lot of praise, but there's something about him that just rubs me the wrong way with how he did business. Yes, he became successful but dude... He had to have some balls back then too.

Interesting thing about the Shat; Out of all of the cast, he was the one who had severe enough financial problems to be doing summer stock and travelling in a car and trailer for a while. Nimoy was on Mission: Impossible and getting a standard salary (he then later appeared in Catlow), did TV movies, and was in several off-Broadway plays/musicals; Kelly was apparently wealth enough to retire, and the others were doing what they were doing until the conventions started.

Still sounds like someone is looking for an excuse to bash Shatner, even if they have to make something up.

Who, me or George?

My other memorable example was Yvonne Craig. It wasn't a Star Trek convention. She had glowing things to say about most of her leading men, including Elvis Presley, Bing Crosby, Dennis Hopper and David McCallum. She had some funny/quirky stories about Adam West, and I guess West fans would say she was "Adam West bashing". But again, there was a fondness evident in her stories. Yvonne had some very pithy comments when asked about William Shatner. Shatner fans probably would have called it "Shatner bashing". The rest of us laughed along with her, but you could tell she wasn't fond of Shatner the way she was with everyone else.

The conclusion I've come away with, from my various meetings with actors and seeing them at conventions, about Shatner's attitudes to felllow actors matches up pretty well with Shatner's own conclusions about himself in his "Star Trek Memories" books. Even if you scaled back the other actors' stories a bit, to allow for exaggeration over time, there must be more to the friction than jealousy or Tall Poppy Syndrome. Shatner had/has a big ego, had his character's interests at heart and was very caught up in his own marital problems (first Gloria, then Marcy, then mistress Vera, then Nerine, now Elizabeth). He was very rarely seen at events important to his ST co-stars. He chose not to socialize with the people he worked with. He's been a busy man.

If that's Shatner bashing, my apologies to Shatner. I'm seeing him on stage in April. A non Star Trek event (but he's also doing a ST convention the same week. I wonder if he'll do any actor bashing as part of his routine?

Its also interesting to note that's its all been from one side, i cant say i have ever heard of Shatner dissing his TOS acting chums at conventions.

Shatner bashers would say that this is proof that Shatner is consumed with himself. When asked for specifics of episodes, he often admits that he can't remember the details of most.

By Shatner's own evidence, he had to interview his old co-stars for his books because he realized he really hadn't taken the time to get to know them during the 60s, and hadn't attended many conventions with them in the 70s and 80s. His deep friendship with Nimoy didn't really emerge until the late 80s, when they were both doing lots of directing and found new things in common.

Famously, though, Shatner seemingly dissed his fans instead - in that cutting "Get a life!" sequence of "Saturday Night Live". He claimed it all to be part of the joke, a work of satire, but many fans saw it as a very personal insult, and perhaps too close to the truth.

A lot of fans also forget about the intro to that skit, where he says he hopes the fans have a really good sense of humor, or he's in really big trouble.

Frankly, that skit would've worked no matter who was in the part of the con guest who goes off on the nerdy fans (which was the whole point of the thing; these guys have to put up with some of the most braindead questions ever conceived, and have to smile through it all, holding back that urge to just tell the lot of 'em to "get a life, people!"). The fact that it was Shatner just added fuel to those first rumblings, which really took off after TFF.

Sorry, but I call BULLSHIT on the skit itself, and the idea behind it.

First off, most fans of Star Trek during the time of the skit were parents, doctors, lawyers, carpenters, etc.-and all or most were in their 30's and 40's. NONE of them were living in their parent's basement or anything else of the sort unless they were unemployed and were also coming to the convention; there were (most likely) VERY FEW younger people of college age coming to Star Trek conventions (just like it is now-some young people come, but the majority of them are going to anime cons or comic book cons.) The majority of Trek fans who would have been at a convention would have been older adults (first and second generation fans), NOT the young people shown in the skit (this is the same thing that Galaxy Quest also did, and while I love that movie, this fact's put a damper on my love of it somewhat.) The 'parent's basement' thing is also therefore an insult considering what I've said above.

IF the skit had been about a sports memorabilia show, with (insert name of athlete here) as the subject of the skit in question, and the athlete had said to the fans 'get a life', you can bet that the NBC switchboard would have been full of calls denouncing the skit (that used to happen to SNL a lot in the '70's.) Instead, sci-fi fans are fair game, because of this stupid bullshit meme that's untrue.

 

[Captain Robert April]

When was the last time you were at a con?

Sorry, but there are still charter members of the get-a-life club running loose.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

When was the last time you were at a con?

Sorry, but there are still charter members of the get-a-life club running loose.

Maybe for you, and for what and whom you've seen, but not for me.

Many of them are also married and not virgins, as well.

 

[Captain Robert April]

And some of them do live in their parents' basements, have the social skills of a feral alpaca, with matching hygiene, and wouldn't know what to do with a naked girl if she came with an instruction manual illustrated by Neal Adams.

I never said they constituted anything resembling a majority, or even a sizable portion, but they're there, they make their presence known, and the local tv news camera crews actively seek 'em out, just to get them to say "Beam me up, Scotty!" and flash a Vulcan salute to all the folks back home.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

And some of them do live in their parents' basements, have the social skills of a feral alpaca, with matching hygiene, and wouldn't know what to do with a naked girl if she came with an instruction manual illustrated by Neal Adams.

I never said they constituted anything resembling a majority, or even a sizable portion, but they're there, they make their presence known, and the local tv news camera crews actively seek 'em out, just to get them to say "Beam me up, Scotty!" and flash a Vulcan salute to all the folks back home.

That's the news media's fault, because most of these companies are run by fucking idiots (the reason local TV news journalism's taken a dip into the toilet, IMHO.) They should know better, but they do this all of the fracking time, instead of just talking to the normal, non-cosplay attendees (reminds me of a time years ago when I asked a crew from CTV Toronto [originally CFTO] to talk to me and ask me questions-a normally dressed guy you'd see on the street. They did tape me, but I don't know if it ever appeared on TV.) This is the real reason; perception versus reality, and nothing else.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Sorry, but I call BULLSHIT on the skit itself, and the idea behind it.

First off, most fans of Star Trek during the time of the skit were parents, doctors, lawyers, carpenters, etc.-and all or most were in their 30's and 40's. NONE of them were living in their parent's basement or anything else of the sort unless they were unemployed and were also coming to the convention...

Huh?

You've managed to compress a few generations in there. Yes, the first wave of ST fans were often university students who watched TOS in their dorm rooms, but TOS also attracted lots of young mothers at home. When TOS moved to syndicated, stripped, early prime time slots in the 70s, it suddenly attracted young families. Lots of 'em. About the same time, Saturday morning animation had TAS, and a new batch of fans was born.

So the convention audiences being parodied in the "Get a life!" skit were a very real phenomenon at the time of the skit. Fans who were exposed to ST as very young children, never knew a time without ST on TV, and were now attending cons as young adults - and soon to became TNG fans (or critics). Some had money to burn, others scrimped and saved.

What the skit got wrong was the lack of equally geeky females in the Shat's "adoring audience". Most cons I've attended, from 1981 to the current day, have been about 50/50 male/female. Not sure of the percentage of stereotypical "geeky" fans, but there are always about 20 or so, ummm intense types, in a group of 200.

I'm a teacher, teacher librarian and writer by day, but people would probably classify me as a stereotypical (hopefully not too embarrassing) geeky ST fan. Luckily I was always able to afford my ST collectibles, and never in need of clean clothes or a shower, and could refrain myself from asking questions such as those featured in the skit. But people reading my comments here often accuse me of being a "typical geeky fan". At conventions, I've squirmed in embarrassment watching certain fans approach the celebs with bizarre questions and requests.

Our club had one certain abruptly-spoken, pimply-faced guy, who always wore the same holey T-shirt, pinned together with Trek badges and buttons, who sent pages of handwritten survey questions to every actor to appear in TOS. (Surprisingly, he received filled-out surveys from about ten actors over the next few years; William Windom filled out his survey, then complained about the fan in a "Starlog" interview!)

I thought Shatner's skit was hilarious, BTW. Hilarious but perhaps a little cruel. What may be truly sad is that some of the people being parodied don't actually recognise themselves in the skit.

 

[beamMe]

Sorry, but I call BULLSHIT on the skit itself, and the idea behind it.

First off, most fans of Star Trek during the time of the skit were parents, doctors, lawyers, carpenters, etc.-and all or most were in their 30's and 40's. NONE of them were living in their parent's basement or anything else of the sort unless they were unemployed and were also coming to the convention; there were (most likely) VERY FEW younger people of college age coming to Star Trek conventions (just like it is now-some young people come, but the majority of them are going to anime cons or comic book cons.) The majority of Trek fans who would have been at a convention would have been older adults (first and second generation fans), NOT the young people shown in the skit (this is the same thing that Galaxy Quest also did, and while I love that movie, this fact's put a damper on my love of it somewhat.) The 'parent's basement' thing is also therefore an insult considering what I've said above.

IF the skit had been about a sports memorabilia show, with (insert name of athlete here) as the subject of the skit in question, and the athlete had said to the fans 'get a life', you can bet that the NBC switchboard would have been full of calls denouncing the skit (that used to happen to SNL a lot in the '70's.) Instead, sci-fi fans are fair game, because of this stupid bullshit meme that's untrue.

"Humour. It's a difficult concept."

 

[Gov Kodos]

It's a funny skit written by SNL writers more than likely, which Shatner then acted. Why is no one taking the writers of the show to task? They created the piece, not him. Shatner did a great bit here, and the phenomenon of fans and stars at conventions was more fully sent up in the first half of Galaxy Quest. Life is too short to take a hobby so seriously that a nearly 40 year old skit brings up such ire. As Mr. Bennet says in Pride and Prejudice- For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors and laugh at them in our turn.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Why is no one taking the writers of the show to task? They created the piece, not him.

IIRC, the people highly offended by the skit felt that Shatner should have refused to participate in something that was so cuttingly satirical as to be cruel to his own fans. (Also, I think Shatner insisted on the ending, where he claimed the rest of the skit had been from the evil Kirk from "The Enemy Within"... which the geeky fans watching it on TV usually point out was given the wrong episode number.)

 

[Merky]

Conventions are home to nerds, annoying teenagers without their mommies, "normal" people, and industry members. The ones that bring the most attention and the craziest at conventions are in fact the two formers - Yes, we're not all like those in the two groups but they're the ones who will ask the dumbass questions, the ones who act like dumbasses in the halls, and the ones who will take their act from the convention into the real world until the three day weekend is done.

The satire of conventions are spot on. If you go to an anime convention or if you go to a comic book convention, it will always be like that. Probably anime conventions have a more younger crowd but still. The stereotype will never go away because the public loves it, which is why shows like The Big Bang Theory still exists on television. There's always that one guy that can't separate fact from fiction and in return makes good television.

I went to the convention yesterday dressed like I was going to a social event. Very clean, proper, had heels, etc. I didn't look like the rest of the crowd, so when I got on the shuttle to the center the driver was like " You do know this is the bus to the comic convention, right? Mary Kay seminar is the other shuttle. "

It's just a general stigma comic book/anime/sci-fi fans have: Socially detached with poor hygiene and really obnoxious to an extent.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

It's just a general stigma comic book/anime/sci-fi fans have: Socially detached with poor hygiene and really obnoxious to an extent.

Except in the case of the conventions I go to (Ad Astra, Anime North, and Polaris [formerly Toronto Trek]) NOBODY's been like that for a LONG, LONG, TIME-especially Ad Astra and Polaris. As I said before, most of the people I'm acquainted with carry themselves well, act and dress properly, are quite adult in mannerisms and behaviour, and bathe frequently during the convention. A couple are quite older, have kids, and act in the way I've just said. And that has been the way it is for all of the time I've been going to Ad Astra and Polaris, which is 25 years since the mid-1980's.

So yeah, what's shown of us in the popular media is complete bullshit, and I dare those people who work for the media to come to a convention, meet with us, and talk to us, before making the assumptions that they do.*

*BTW, Rod Roddenberry was supposed to be making a documentary similar to Trekkies and Trekkies II that would show just what I'm saying-I hope that he completes it.

 

[Merky]

It's just a general stigma comic book/anime/sci-fi fans have: Socially detached with poor hygiene and really obnoxious to an extent.

Except in the case of the conventions I go to (Ad Astra, Anime North, and Polaris [formerly Toronto Trek]) NOBODY's been like that for a LONG, LONG, TIME-especially Ad Astra and Polaris. As I said before, most of the people I'm acquainted with carry themselves well, act and dress properly, are quite adult in mannerisms and behaviour, and bathe frequently during the convention. A couple are quite older, have kids, and act in the way I've just said. And that has been the way it is for all of the time I've been going to Ad Astra and Polaris, which is 25 years since the mid-1980's.

So yeah, what's shown of us in the popular media is complete bullshit, and I dare those people who work for the media to come to a convention, meet with us, and talk to us, before making the assumptions that they do.*

*BTW, Rod Roddenberry was supposed to be making a documentary similar to Trekkies and Trekkies II that would show just what I'm saying-I hope that he completes it.

Uh, I've been going to conventions for 10 years. I've been to small town hole in the wall cons to the big ones like New York Comic Con and Otakon and they do exist. I've seen it with my own eyes, I've watched one fandom (Japanese animation) grow from nothing to exploding to 40k in attendance and the majority are those loud, crazy, nerdy types with their messenger bags, goods from the dealers room, and t-shirts with obscure nerdy references.

I don't know why you're taking this so personally or trying to argue the issue with caps and underscores when it true. Maybe you're not like that but the huge majority is and that's the point: It's the majority that set the stigma. It's not like its some major conspiracy out there to put the sci-fan down. It is a fact that a lot of your hard core sci-fans are the ones that make up the big part of your conventions and they're the ones that attract the most attention.

Who wants to pay attention to average joe when you can put all focus on the Sheldon-type dude screaming Klingon and having a mock fight with some Picard-cosplayer.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I've been going to cons since 1980, and they've ALWAYS been there. I'm sure I could ask Bjo about the old guard cons in the 50's and she could tell stories about fans like that back then, and if Forry Ackerman was still around, he could talk about the overly obsessed back in the 30's and 40's (he might even confess to being one of that ilk).

All the skit did was enable us to give the group a name.

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

I've got to disagree with you, Dusty. I attended conventions regularly during the late 70's and throughout the 80's and stopped attending around the 90's. Many of the conventions I attended were dominated by the very people Shatner was lampooning. It was very disappointing to go such a convention, but it happened far too often. There were exceptions, of course. Usually the crowd at ShoreLeave was far more mature, and those were the conventions I gravitated toward.

By the way, during the 80's, I could name nearly half a dozen of my Star Trek fan friends who did live in their parents basements.

Lastly, of course the media is going to interview those dressed up in costume. They're more colorful and often say laughable things that makes for entertaining news.

 

[Vance]

You don't need to hit the conventions to know what the crowd is like.. just chat around here for a bit. :P

 

[T'Bonz]

I disagree with you, Dusty. I've gone to Florida conventions since around 1982 (with a time off when I was raising the kids) and while the entire convention wasn't filled with "needing to get a life"-type fans, there are most definitely some of those in attendance.

They are often loud, ask inappropriate/strange questions, are either thin and spotty or morbidly obese (often the latter down here), are socially awkward (and that's putting it kindly) and yes, need to bathe.

We notice them more because they stand out. I've been to more than one convention where someone like that got up and asked a question that was just plain fucking weird, to the discomfort of both the actor and the crowd.

Of course, plenty of normal people attend the conventions, even the ones who dress up on Saturday afternoon/evening as I do. We have normal jobs and families, and when we all sit at a table on Friday and Saturday nights getting tanked, we DON'T talk Star Trek.

But trust me, we all are aware of the oddballs at the conventions. And they're EXACTLY like Shatner portrayed them.

 

[Merky]

I've been to more than one convention where someone like that got up and asked a question that was just plain fucking we

A good one for example is yesterday, I don't know if it was completely weird, but a fan was like: " My dad hired you back in the 70s, you signed his business card, so I want you to sign my business card now! "

I think it was the way in how he asked the question that was just a little odd. Like you owe me a signature, the way Shatner played it off was funny. I think he agreed though... maybe. I dunno.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Except in the case of the conventions I go to (Ad Astra, Anime North, and Polaris [formerly Toronto Trek]) NOBODY's been like that for a LONG, LONG, TIME-especially Ad Astra and Polaris. As I said before, most of the people I'm acquainted with carry themselves well, act and dress properly, are quite adult in mannerisms and behaviour, and bathe frequently during the convention.

Possibilities:

* Over the years you've formed your own clique of like-minded fans - and you just don't see the other cliques around you? You, yourself, say "most of the people". (In that Shatner skit, they don't show that just beyond the actors playing nerdy fans, out of camera range, there would be the other 90% of embarrassed convention-goers wishing the nerdy fans would just sit down and stop hogging the front rows.)

* Those conventions you list were so cruel to the geekier fans in the past they stopped feeling like they were welcome?

Now we are waiting for someone to wander in and say they know there are weird fans that do go to Ad Astra, Anime North and Polaris. It's sure to happen.

As I said before, in any crowd of any 200 people in a conference venue - for any event - at least 20 can be relied upon to act like jerks at some point over a three day weekend. Whether it be a loud disagreement with the hotel personnel, wearing inappropriate attire in a public space, drinking to much, lacking social graces or proper hygiene, pushing to the front of the lines, or making strange comments to a celebrity guest.

 

[Captain Robert April]

One year we got Francis Ford Coppola (he was promoting "Dracula", so his appearance was paid for by the studio), and we had some of the greatest questions from the audience, about filmmaking, his previous films, etc., until one girl got up and asked him, and I quote, "Do you think vampires are real?"

It was like someone took a shotgun to the Goodyear blimp, the air left the rooms so fast.

Thankfully, the intelligent questions picked back up and it ended on a high note, but those are the sort of moments that make you just wanna walk up to the questioner and whack 'em upside their head with a wiffle bat.