Vulcans and Romulans

[BillJ]

If the wars were so destructive the Vulcans had to start over, then it's no so unbelievable.

Don't buy it. A human in Montana was able to build a warp ship, from scratch, out of spare parts less than ten years after a nuclear war where six-hundred million people died.

You're talking about a race that had the technology for a thousand years losing it? After a thousand years, the tech would be so ingrained into society that school children would know of it (not to mention whatever outposts you've set up). It'd be like us having a nuclear war and losing knowledge of the wheel.

 

[BillJ]

The Vulcans weren't a unified species at the time...

Anything to back that up?

The Klingons are a violent warrior race that seem to be 'unified enough' to build an interstellar empire.

 

[Anwar]

It's implied the Klingons stole their FTL technology from the Hurq, and didn't develop it on their own. That's why it took so long for them to advance their tech for 200 years from ENT to DS9.

Plus, they still don't seem as violent as what the ancient Vulcans were supposed to be like if Spock in "All our Yesterdays" is any example (and he's half human so he was only HALF as savage as a full one would be). With all the complains about how aliens are monoculture in Trek, you'd think someone would be HAPPY at least one species was faction split at one point!

In Babylon 5 a war turned the Earth civilization into the new Middle Ages after "The Great Burn" and it took quite some time to rebuild. So there's a precedent. Cochrane was either building his ship before the war or was just lucky that there was a missile base where he was for him to build from.

 

[Magellan]

It's not impossible for the Vulcans to get around without warp drive. With a nuclear pulse rocket, or some other 20th/21st century technology they could put about the univers at say 10 to 20% the speed of light, allowing them to travel between stars within a Vulcan lifespan no problem. That's sort of how I imagined it.

However it does seem a bit strange that the Vulcans would be so far ahead of Earth, yet Earth could catch up and surpass Vulcan. Spock certainly seemed very scientifically inclined. Maybe Vulcans aren't as smart as they always seemed.

"You're talking about a race that had the technology for a thousand years losing it? After a thousand years, the tech would be so ingrained into society that school children would know of it (not to mention whatever outposts you've set up). It'd be like us having a nuclear war and losing knowledge of the wheel."

I dunno about that. Try and ask your average citizen how steel is made. Probably dont know. Or how to cure leather. In reality without engineers, modern day people would be totally lost on ow to rebuild the technology they use every day.

 

[Anwar]

I don't think the humans ever caught up with or surpassed the Vulcans, their tech was still inferior in ENT and that was a decade before the Federation when their techs would be blended together for Fed Starships.

 

[T'Girl]

that was a decade before the Federation when their techs would be blended together for Fed Starships

Maybe not even then. During Enterprise Vulcan starships had a cruising speed of warp seven, a century later Federation starships had a cruising speed of warp six. Not only were the Vulcans not sharing their technology prior to the Federation, they weren't sharing it afterwords.

 

[PsychoPere]

Or, their warp tech back then wasn't so good (maybe only warp one) and the wars kept destroying infrastructure and technology. The final war before Surak may have done so much damage to those who remained (while the Romulans fled on the remaining warp ships) that it just took them some time to re-invent warp technology.

Along these lines, according to Memory Alpha's Vulcan entry, ENT "First Flight" apparently established that there was a period of one hundred years between the first Vulcan warp flight and the time they managed to achieve Warp 2.

 

[FormerLurker]

that was a decade before the Federation when their techs would be blended together for Fed Starships

Maybe not even then. During Enterprise Vulcan starships had a cruising speed of warp seven, a century later Federation starships had a cruising speed of warp six. Not only were the Vulcans not sharing their technology prior to the Federation, they weren't sharing it afterwords.

You're forgetting the fact that in Enterprise it was stated that warp seven was the maximum speed for the Vulcan ships, not the cruising speed. The cruising speed was probably warp 3.5 or warp four.

 

[Timo]

I can totally buy the Romulans having a couple of wars of their own that mirrored Surak's war. If Vulcan lost the ability to travel at warp, Romulans might well have lost the ability to travel on horseless carriages! Remember that the Romulans would be colonists far from home, lacking in depth and strength of infrastructure; any damage suffered might be truly terminal, there being no way to build the tools needed for rebuilding a frammistat factory once the only frammistat factory on the planet was lost. Moreover, Vulcan itself might have been in similar dire straits - survival on that hellhole might have been touch and go even without a massive war. And there'd be no distant peoples from another valley or island to start over when the peoples on the existing cities were lost; what would the total population of Vulcan be back then, the six billion of STXI who lived in high tech comfort, or the six million a desert world might support without such tech?

As for the RNZ being both close to Earth and far away from it, well, why not? Romulus might be a distant world, but the territory of the Romulan Star Empire might extend from there to the doorstep of Vulcan. And "Balance of Terror" would take place near Romulus, far from Vulcan, while "Unification" would have the opposite parameters.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CuttingEdge100]

I looked at a wikipedia entry, and it would seem the best scenario to explain everything would be as follows

You have the planet Vulcan. They're violent, and war-like, and are potentially are developing warp-drive, though they may still largely be based on Vulcan. A guy called Surak comes along and tries to bring forth a philosophy of peace, and suppression of emotion in favor of logic and reason. You have people who resist Surak's teachings, particularly a group of Vulcans who call themselves "those who march under the raptor's wings", end up engaging the Vulcans in a massive nuclear war that nearly end up annihilating everybody, except a small number of Vulcans, and of course the Romulan separatists. They end up leaving for the stars with some kind of warp-engine technology which is either developed after the war, or was developed prior to the war. The nuclear war ends up plunging most of the Vulcans into a dark-age, and little other than Surak's teachings remain.

These warp-capable Vulcan separatists inhabit Romulus and Remus. For one reason or another they end up getting into war with each other, and nearly end up wiping themselves out as well.

Of course, they clearly re-build and both develop warp-capability, the Vulcans turn out doing so with greater swiftness and success, and eventually encounter and make first-contact with the human inhabitants of Earth. Eventually they become members of the UFP and so on.

By the 22nd century, a war breaks out with the Federation and the Romulans, and the Federation wins. The Romulans end up accelerating their warp-engine technology, which is almost certainly enhanced via the use of industrial espionage against the Federation, and a treaty with the Klingons. By 2267 or 2268, they have effectively caught up with the Federation in terms of Warp capability.

Sound like a good explanation?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Or, their warp tech back then wasn't so good (maybe only warp one) and the wars kept destroying infrastructure and technology. The final war before Surak may have done so much damage to those who remained (while the Romulans fled on the remaining warp ships) that it just took them some time to re-invent warp technology.

Along these lines, according to Memory Alpha's Vulcan entry, ENT "First Flight" apparently established that there was a period of one hundred years between the first Vulcan warp flight and the time they managed to achieve Warp 2.

That makes sense. Soval once said that after Vulcan's last catastrophic war, it took them a thousand years to rebuild their society and technology, whereas Earth only took a few decades to do the same (after World War III). So I can buy the explanation that Vulcan simply moves a lot slower in its technological pace.

 

[Timo]

There may also be major aspects to Vulcan and general sector history that we are not aware of. Earth entered the game really late, and was unaware of such basics as the Vulcan/Andorian conflict at first.

For all we know, Vulcan was not set back just by Surak's war, but by a series of alien invasions which the Vulcans thwarted (echoing Spock's statement in "Immunity Syndrome" that Vulcans were proud of never having been conquered), but at high cost. There might have been a period of Viking rule in the general region for a while, with Earth spared only because there was little here to be robbed besides a few slaves.

Or then Vulcan and Romulus fought a bitter war some time after the bifurcation of the culture (as perhaps suggested by "Death Wish", even though the two Qs might have been discussing alternate history or future), and then another, and then another, never achieving total victory but certainly managing to curtail the industrial and military potential of each other.

Or possibly Surak's various disciples fought bitter internal wars over the finer points of pacifism for a thousand years, putting all scientific and technological development on back burner...

We probably aren't facing two thousand years of nothing, but rather two thousand years of intriguing if potentially dark ages on planets Vulcan and Romulus. The content of the ages wouldn't be dictated solely by the events of Surak's time, but would be constantly affected by more modern developments.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

The Vulcan and Conquerors thing was a mess-up. In one episode Spock says Vulcan cannot conceive a conqueror (which is total BS, given their violent past) and then McCoy says another time that Vulcan was conquered.

 

[Satyrquaze]

The Vulcan and Conquerors thing was a mess-up. In one episode Spock says Vulcan cannot conceive a conqueror (which is total BS, given their violent past) and then McCoy says another time that Vulcan was conquered.

When and Where?

 

[Timo]

In "Conscience of the King", Spock says that his "father's race was spared the dubious benefits of alcohol". McCoy jokes that this is why "they" were conquered.

Might be a reference to Sarek being conquered by Amanda Grayson thanks to a well-placed bottle of strong liquor? It certainly was an attempt at humor.

As for Vulcans not being familiar with being conquered - well, the ones who experienced that fate in Vulcan's past might not have survived to tell the story...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

As for Vulcans not being familiar with being conquered - well, the ones who experienced that fate in Vulcan's past might not have survived to tell the story...

Timo Saloniemi

But wouldn't you have to pretty much exterminate the whole race for that to be the case?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Nah, you just have to control how history is written.

 

[Anwar]

Or Spock was just BSing again, like how he kept making it out that the Vulcans were great and stuff when they were worse than Humanity ever was.

 

[D.W.C]

Because Spock says Vulcans were a war like people and violent and savage people (even by human standards), doesn't mean they were bashing each other heads open all the time. Plus Spock and other Vulcans talk of the past in the present, so of course the image of the ancient Vulcans is bad due to the way they are now. The Vulcans were capable of space travel in ancient times, they obviously were united at one time. The Vulcans were properly not much different then the tribes of Earth like the Saxons, Vikings, etc, in terms of violence. However due to Vulcans having more emotional feelings then humans, violence properly occured from a little thing of someone pushing infront of a queue, so this is what Surak and others wanted to stop the violence caused by their high emotions, a war is started and ended, then the Romulans leave in the spaceships already built that could of had warp drive (this could further be theorized by the fact that the Romulans use a different system to get warp drive, however it has practically the same effect). The Vulcans dedicated their lives to ideals and building a civilization instead of technology which had already caused millions of deaths and destruction, when they felt they were ready to proceed with scientific and technological development they did because they followed a new belief system.

Thats my view on the whole things, however the question I have is why do most Romulans have ridges and Vulcans don't?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Or possibly Surak's various disciples fought bitter internal wars over the finer points of pacifism for a thousand years, putting all scientific and technological development on back burner...

"Now imagine a seminar at the philosophy department, only it lasted one thousand years..."