Understandable. It's not in Vulcan nature to speak up...about anything. (Even though Sarek was probably seething about it.)
Vulcan society is really horrifying when you think about it
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Understandable. It's not in Vulcan nature to speak up...about anything. (Even though Sarek was probably seething about it.)
True, but it doesn't come across as being very, well, positive reflection of at least the leadership of that institution.
What I ponder is... if Vulcans are naturally a wildly emotional, savage people, who were on the brink of self-destruction, & the discipline of logic & emotional suppression is how they've conquered that state, & Romulans schismed from them, presumably prior to that way of life being established, then we're meant to think Romulans are by their very nature still emotionally as compromised as ancient Vulcans.
Either that, or they found some other means by which to avoid that self-destruction. Would that mean that Vulcans were wrong? If they hadn't followed Surak's way, they'd basically have developed possibly the same way as Romulans?
So which is it... Are Romlans still the savages that Vulcans were, & are still on the path to that foretold doom, despite somehow having managed to survive those many ages beyond what Vulcans thought would happen, or are Vulcans BS-ing themselves that the way they went was the only way out of their pending doom?
OR was it maybe the schism itself that was the real deciding factor in both sects surviving that doom??? In which case, the impact of the logic/emotionlessness thing was still overblown... Any way you cut it, the mere existence of Romulans, so long separated from Vulcan, kind of debunks the validity of the Vulcan claim that they were doomed without their discipline being established, & that it is the only way for them to live
That in & of itself would have me running around like Sybok lol
Either that, or they found some other means by which to avoid that self-destruction. Would that mean that Vulcans were wrong? If they hadn't followed Surak's way, they'd basically have developed possibly the same way as Romulans?
So which is it... Are Romlans still the savages that Vulcans were, & are still on the path to that foretold doom, despite somehow having managed to survive those many ages beyond what Vulcans thought would happen, or are Vulcans BS-ing themselves that the way they went was the only way out of their pending doom?
OR was it maybe the schism itself that was the real deciding factor in both sects surviving that doom??? In which case, the impact of the logic/emotionlessness thing was still overblown... Any way you cut it, the mere existence of Romulans, so long separated from Vulcan, kind of debunks the validity of the Vulcan claim that they were doomed without their discipline being established, & that it is the only way for them to live
That in & of itself would have me running around like Sybok lol
Romulans subdued their emotions in to a form of duty to the state.
That would make sense, but it also means Spock is somewhat looney in Unification, when he's talking about them like they're burgeoning on the Vulcan way. They already had to be, just by their mere being there still
Kind of makes even him come off pompous
That's not bad either, in that it explains how a people so damn untrustworthy could maintain a functioning system at all
Sarek could still very well have general disdain and/or superiority complex toward humans, even while married to one. It's not uncommon in real-life relationships that cross human cultures, after all. "It is not logical, but it is often true." And "Amok Time" shows this feudalistic Vulcan view of spouses as property to be fought over. And then there was Sarek's attitude toward his own son in the oddball flashback scene in TFF... "So human," remarked Sarek while looking down his nose at Spock.
As for Romulans, the Commander in "The Enterprise Incident" did remark, "Our people are warriors. Often savage." We don't really see that depicted, though. Maybe there are all sorts of formalized duels and stuff that give them a socially acceptable outlet for that savagery. I think the novels got into that more.
Kor
As for Romulans, the Commander in "The Enterprise Incident" did remark, "Our people are warriors. Often savage." We don't really see that depicted, though. Maybe there are all sorts of formalized duels and stuff that give them a socially acceptable outlet for that savagery. I think the novels got into that more.
Kor
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I highly recommend Diane Duane's Spock's World (henceforth "SW"). If it had a review thread, on TrekBBS, I'd give it an "Outstanding" without hesitation. And anybody who knows me from the TrekLit review threads knows I don't give those easily or lightly.
That said, I seem to recall sombebody (McCoy, I think) in some ST novel (maybe SW, maybe not), saying that T'Pring "got to be property" by abandoning Spock in the throes of Pon Farr (tantamount to murder), and invoking the Kal-If-Fee. Which implies that (1) she's not a very nice person
and (2) she paid a high price for invoking the Kal-If-Fee (you want to invoke the old laws to get rid of an unwanted husband without cause, without giving him any say in the matter, and probably at the cost of his life? Ok, but it's a package deal, and you get all the old laws.)
That said, I seem to recall sombebody (McCoy, I think) in some ST novel (maybe SW, maybe not), saying that T'Pring "got to be property" by abandoning Spock in the throes of Pon Farr (tantamount to murder), and invoking the Kal-If-Fee. Which implies that (1) she's not a very nice person
she turns out to be the mastermind behind the Vulcan secessionist campaign
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Spock had her as a placeholder, if he suspected he might never get the 7 year itch, he should have let her go before Amok Time episode. He also was at fault
It's not?
I think it's interesting to wonder whether that's true or if the Vulcan devotion to logic is just a crutch used to rationalize their beliefs instead of being a necessity.
There are many religious conservatives in the here and now who believe their beliefs are the foundation of morality and the functioning of society, and without them the entire thing would devolve into bedlam. That the only thing holding many humans back from debauchery and violence is a fear of a higher power and submission to rules like the Ten Commandments. Whether one thinks that's true or not, the belief positions a view of humanity as flawed, broken things that need observant faith in order to keep from being murderers and thieves.
Yes, the Vulcans were so "barbaric" that they almost destroyed themselves. But, within Trek's lore, so did humanity. Before someone throws out "All Our Yesterdays," exactly how barbaric were Vulcans pre-Surak? They were advanced enough to have a functioning society that developed nuclear weapons and space travel (since the Romulans were able to escape the planet). So I think an argument can be made that the idea they must suppress their emotions in order to keep from being a race of murderous jerks is exaggerated. Even the Romulans, without Surak's teachings, were able to put together a functioning interstellar society/empire that lasted for centuries.
They also created a weapon that amplified psychic hate. If it's exaggerated then I don't think it is by much.
The Romulans as a society subdued their broader emotions in the same of duty to the state. "We are creatures of duty, captain." And even that created tension and infighting amongst the crew. The Romulans also have paranoia in the extreme, willing to destroy anyone who helps them.
The Empire functions but I would not say it isn't fueled by intense emotions.
Any society that formed a secret police agency like the Tal Shiar certainly functioned on intense emotions.
"It was logical to cultivate alternatives"
I don't know. Vulcans always seem very quick to point out when someone else is acting illogically.
Vulcan history is not a free style purge (the movie).
It's because at one point the leaders of the planet decided to use nuclear weapons. Leaders being the the focal point of the people, therefore the people nuked themselves.
Sarak was alive during the time of awakening.
Which means during the course of Sarak's life time, he invented logic and started a civil war to displace the dominate species, of which he was one when he was born, participated in the nuclear war, then saw to the exodus of Romulas, that was then renamed Vulcan once all the Romulans had left.
I think the Romulans won that civil war.
Which is why they were allowed to strip mine the planet to build enough ships to carry 3 billion romulans off to a new non-irradiated homeworld.
It's because at one point the leaders of the planet decided to use nuclear weapons. Leaders being the the focal point of the people, therefore the people nuked themselves.
Sarak was alive during the time of awakening.
Which means during the course of Sarak's life time, he invented logic and started a civil war to displace the dominate species, of which he was one when he was born, participated in the nuclear war, then saw to the exodus of Romulas, that was then renamed Vulcan once all the Romulans had left.
I think the Romulans won that civil war.
Which is why they were allowed to strip mine the planet to build enough ships to carry 3 billion romulans off to a new non-irradiated homeworld.
Surak
I heard it both ways.
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