Terra Prime. Forever.I prefer the TL/DR material to the alternative and don't worry, that's not even TL/DR. Lovely!
Vulcan society is really horrifying when you think about it
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Perhaps its fair to say then that the Romulans were pressured to leave Vulcan in the first place. On one hand, they face religious persecution for being unwilling to conform to Surak’s teachings, and in the other, they are homeless in an ideological sense. That there were Romulans pushing for reunification with Vulcan as early as 2154 mean either a) attempting to co-opt Vulcan, b) they though that Vulcan was ideologically aligned with Romulus, or c) were simply trying to reunite with what they were familiar with in the face of various hostile species, and what ever horrifying life was present on Vulcan was preferable to whatever Romulans had encountered.
Not really. Aside from the Time of Awakening being their WWIII and that Vulcans were once like humans prior to it, we know nothing about the era.
Not really. Aside from the Time of Awakening being their WWIII and that Vulcans were once like humans prior to it, we know nothing about the era.
"Logic, my dear Zoe, merely enables one to be wrong with authority."
--The Second Doctor, "Tomb of the Cybermen"
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I think also, something Michael Chabon (I think) said that made sense, the key aspect of Romulan life is secrecy. They only really trust family and then not very much. Everything beyond that is a series of very shaky trust relationships. Vulcans might be the only other "Species" in the galaxy they could trust enough to be in union with.
"You can use logic to justify almost anything. That's it's power, and it's flaw. From now on, bring your logic to me." [Kathryn Janeway]
I'd say most of the alien societies in the neighborhood don't sound that pleasant, especially when you have no inclination to follow the beaten path.
You're born a Klingon. The only path to a respectable position is by pursuing a warrior's career. You might become a quadrant renowned scientist, or an engineer the likes of which Starfleet could only dream of, but still you'll be treated with contempt by the warrior classes.
You're born a Ferengi. Not pursuing latinum and a business career is absolutely unacceptable, even if you don't have the lobes for it (E.g. Quark's father, his brother Rom). Worse still if you're born a female.
You're born a Cardassian. The only way to make any kind of career is probably to backstab others, to be on your guard for those that could backstab you, and to not raise the suspicions of the Obsidian Order too much.
You're born a Klingon. The only path to a respectable position is by pursuing a warrior's career. You might become a quadrant renowned scientist, or an engineer the likes of which Starfleet could only dream of, but still you'll be treated with contempt by the warrior classes.
You're born a Ferengi. Not pursuing latinum and a business career is absolutely unacceptable, even if you don't have the lobes for it (E.g. Quark's father, his brother Rom). Worse still if you're born a female.
You're born a Cardassian. The only way to make any kind of career is probably to backstab others, to be on your guard for those that could backstab you, and to not raise the suspicions of the Obsidian Order too much.
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Depends on what the showrunner/main producer wants, but that's not a bad summary.
Don't tell Sybok. He'll get mad and then rattle off why Sha-Ka-Ree was the worst planet named after a Bond actor.
Actually, some showrunners had a point - Gene's hodgepoges of ideals don't always add up, and trying to add in a background of "how" they ended up that way isn't always grounded in reality either. But for whatever reasons they wanted to fill in the details.
On the other hand, not many would find total anarchy appealing. Soooooooo, is there a balance?
TOS did spell out several times about how they perceived to conquer their sense of barbarism and the inability of STI treatments at the time?
"Journey to Babel" did have DC Fontana questioning the Vulcan way of life but in a clever way. Not unlike how DS9 questioned many other ideals of Gene's.
Didn't he just want to boink her in a way that would prevent him from getting on Maury or Jerry?
Didn't that boil down to "the needs of the many", the rest of the ship?
One of Trek franchise's best lines of all time. Another reason why Tuvok was the best Vulcan (IMHO) too...
Macro vs micro - the themes aren't so easily defined when the episode's necessary drama kicks in.
Clearly. Although I'd have had Gary whacked, too.
I knew I forgot to check my ponn farr site's email since setting it up last week...
You can logically defend almost anything, most villains aren't inherently evil, its just that they think there "Way" is the correct logical one.
What i find funny is that Vulcans have IDIC Medal, yet there society doesn't seem to tolerate half breeds like Spock, or ones that don't fully suppress there emotions, as said, its more of a Mono Culture. Belive what the majority wants or GTFO.. ( Seems this is some example of present day crap as well..)
Surak belived that if they didn't dampen down there emotions, that there aggression would kill them all, there was probably ALOT of war on vulcan up untill the time of the great awakening, and Surak seen the end, so he adopted an approch of repressing his emotions, and expoused that teaching to save his world. there was probably a bunch of trial and error, as mentioned, its un healthy to repress emotions or other feelings for so long. Maybe why Pon Farr is so feral. they need releases. Maybe why they meditate so often, maintain sanity and control.
Romulans when they left were probably lucky they didn't destroy themselves, they channeled there emotions in to secrecy and political games.
What i find funny is that Vulcans have IDIC Medal, yet there society doesn't seem to tolerate half breeds like Spock, or ones that don't fully suppress there emotions, as said, its more of a Mono Culture. Belive what the majority wants or GTFO.. ( Seems this is some example of present day crap as well..)
Surak belived that if they didn't dampen down there emotions, that there aggression would kill them all, there was probably ALOT of war on vulcan up untill the time of the great awakening, and Surak seen the end, so he adopted an approch of repressing his emotions, and expoused that teaching to save his world. there was probably a bunch of trial and error, as mentioned, its un healthy to repress emotions or other feelings for so long. Maybe why Pon Farr is so feral. they need releases. Maybe why they meditate so often, maintain sanity and control.
Romulans when they left were probably lucky they didn't destroy themselves, they channeled there emotions in to secrecy and political games.
We see three kids teasing Spock about that (Yesteryear), plus the head of the science institute in ST09. So it's like four people. Not exactly an epidemic...
I see that in TOS/DS9/Ent, but I don't see it in TNG/Voy/DSC. And I wouldn't compare it to LGBT issues on Earth except for the hamfisted way they did it in that one Ent mindmeld episode. It's very different because the Vulcans believe, based on historical evidence, that if they do not suppress their emotions they will become raving violent barbarians. We've also seen that Vulcans who lose the ability to suppress their emotions become completely controlled by them.
You can't compare it to churches expressing hatred toward people who think differently because they are not just acting on dogma, they are acting on direct evidence and experience that without logic and emotional control, harm is done to innocent people.
Their attitude toward emotional humans can be harsh particularly in the way they were miswritten in DS9 and early Ent, but it's frankly not as bad as human beings treat people who don't agree with their beliefs every day, or even the way the Federation treats races like the Ferengi.
And the Vulcans have certainly mellowed by the time they reintegrated with Romulus.
You can't compare it to churches expressing hatred toward people who think differently because they are not just acting on dogma, they are acting on direct evidence and experience that without logic and emotional control, harm is done to innocent people.
Their attitude toward emotional humans can be harsh particularly in the way they were miswritten in DS9 and early Ent, but it's frankly not as bad as human beings treat people who don't agree with their beliefs every day, or even the way the Federation treats races like the Ferengi.
And the Vulcans have certainly mellowed by the time they reintegrated with Romulus.
The Vulcan Hello to Klingons is: blast them on first sight!
The Vulcan Goodbye to Klingons is: planetary genocide!
In short: don't piss off a Vulcan emissary.
It's also mentioned (for the first time) in "Journey to Babel," as early as the second season of TOS. So I'm not sure where people get the idea portraying the Vulcans as just as imperfect as any other species is some subversive new approach, let alone contrary to Roddenberry's vision or whatever.
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Thank you for quoting my favorite Doctor. He is quite right.
Vulcans have always had an arrogant streak about them, and frankly it's deserved. Think about it. They are physically stronger than almost all species they meet. They are extremely intelligent. Their average lifespan is over two centuries. Of course they will have an arrogant streak.
As to their embracing logic as being a detriment to their well being... I think it's the exact opposite. Just look at Spock during his pon farr... he easily crushed a desk computer screen. We have seen many instances of Vulcan strength, and honestly, it's a damn good thing they keep their emitions in check. Vulcans need that sort of extreme measure of control because the alternative is much worse.
Also, I actually thought ENTERPRISE's portrayal of Vulcans was pretty good.
^Here's the most relevant point IMHO. This is a fantasy race with a bestowed property of inherently wildly dangerous emotions, who given the choice of self destruction & a singular other way, chose to survive
We can't apply realism to this. They embraced Surak's logic scheme & it by & large worked, because that's the fictional narrative they wanted to devise. That there is a superiority complex & rigidly fundamentalistic behaviors associated with it makes some sense dramatically, but horrifying? Perhaps if this had any kind of reality to it, but not in this fantasy narrative
In this context, I'd say we've been given a valid example where this kind of repression is actually merited, not unlike prescribing behavioral meds to someone who is a danger to themselves & others, which might be unconscionable under normal circumstances, but in their case an excusable lesser of two evils
By realistic terms, Vulcans are all mentally unstable, & the fix they embraced, how many ever unpleasant or even argubly unethical side effects there might be, is seemingly the preferable course
And T'Pau, who questions Spock's reaction to the Ponn Far. Plus, it's interesting that this is the head of the Vulcan Science Institute who states that Spock has a "disadvantage" and not one member of that council corrects him. It might not be an epidemic, but certainly present with multiple leaders in Vulcan society. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
Yeah, I remember being baffled when people complained that ENTERPRISE maligned the Vulcans. Had they not seen "Amok Time," the very first Vulcan episode ever? They don't exactly come off looking well there.
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