Vulcan & Romulus

[James Wright]

I've been thinking about something since seeing Star Trek 2009,
Vulcan had 6 billion citizens on planet when the planet was destroyed. Just out of curiousity did Vulcan have any colonies on other planets?
With the destruction of Romulus what do you think will happen to the remainder of the empire?

James

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, you sort of answered your own question: Vulcan has at least one colony, named Romulus, filled with billions of Vulcans called Romulans.

Which is why I don't understand why anyone can possibly take the "endangered species" line literally. It's so obviously hyperbole.

Vulcan no doubt has at least as many colonies as Earth does, and probably more. They're a spacefaring people. If they didn't have colonies, there wouldn't be much use for them to fare space, would there?

As for what happens to Romulus in the prime universe, despite the ruin (both physical and conceptual) that the novels have made of the RSE, I don't see why losing one planet would really hurt them that much in the long run. One of the main points of expanding beyond a single planet is to ensure that the destruction of that planet does not destroy the civilization.

 

[Sci]

Well, you sort of answered your own question: Vulcan has at least one colony, named Romulus, filled with billions of Vulcans called Romulans.

Which is why I don't understand why anyone can possibly take the "endangered species" line literally. It's so obviously hyperbole.

Vulcan no doubt has at least as many colonies as Earth does, and probably more. They're a spacefaring people. If they didn't have colonies, there wouldn't be much use for them to fare space, would there?

As for what happens to Romulus in the prime universe, despite the ruin (both physical and conceptual) that the novels have made of the RSE, I don't see why losing one planet would really hurt them that much in the long run. One of the main points of expanding beyond a single planet is to ensure that the destruction of that planet does not destroy the civilization.

Well, it's fair to say that Romulan culture and the Romulan people will survive the destruction of Romulus. But in a lot of ways, the interstellar empires in Star Trek are similar to old-style city-states' empires. Asking if the Romulan Star Empire can survive the destruction of Romulus is like asking if the Roman Empire could survive the destruction of Rome. I mean, in theory, maybe, but would it actually function that way? The capital is everything to these people, it's not just a place to put the government.

 

[Timo]

One might see all sorts of mechanisms into this, even if none are explicated. For example, perhaps these star empires deliberately organize themselves so that the homeworld (or other seat-of-government world) is and remains the most populated, industrially most capable, and militarily most secure part of the empire. This would serve the dual purposes of protecting against enemy invasion, since the seat of the government would sit securely at the center of the rough sphere into which the culture has expanded - and of protecting against secession, since no center of power would grow strong enough to secede while residing far enough from the homeworld to secede.

Even a relatively "benign" empire like the UFP might choose to grow that way. But external factors might also dictate that sort of growth. For all we know, if an empire grows in a multi-nuclear fashion, it then becomes inevitable that the competing faraway centers of power secede. Thus, a multi-nucleus empire never survives in that form for long. Perhaps the Vulcan empire used to be binuclear, but then Romulus seceded? Or perhaps they were multinuclear, and not only Romulus but also Debrune and others seceded, all of them making use of the temporary weakness of the original homeworld that had resulted from the Surakian war.

So Vulcan went down, those two millennia ago, and then came back, but this time within a region of space already contested by other powers. Thus, there never was a Vulcan empire again; the homeworldian Vulcans chose to associate themselves with the ascending alliance of humans, Andorians, Tellarites and others instead.

The Vulcan of STXI won't come back, and it was lost while there was no Vulcan empire around it, only the Vulcan part of the UFP. This might mean that the second-biggest Vulcan planet, their most important colony (whatever that is), will never get the chance to ascend to the status of the new center world. Or it may mean that this planet will ascend to that status faster than in any other circumstances, because the "Vulcan empire" in this case is not under pressure from any competing reign, but is instead sheltered within the UFP and allowed to regrow in peace.

In the prime timeline of STXI, Romulus is also gone for good. Their remaining empire isn't sheltered by anybody, and is surrounded by enemies who are still all pumped up with fighting spirit from the Last Big One. One would expect the Klingons to waltz in and conquer most of the Romulan Star Empire in a forthnight, while some sort of a Sisko-analogue would blow the whistle and side with the Romulans, "Way of the Warrior" fashion, thereby denying the Klingons complete victory and preserving some sort of a rump RSE. Possibly the reunification between Vulcans and Romulans would finally proceed, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Well, you sort of answered your own question: Vulcan has at least one colony, named Romulus, filled with billions of Vulcans called Romulans.

Which is why I don't understand why anyone can possibly take the "endangered species" line literally. It's so obviously hyperbole.

Remember Balance of Terror? This obviously takes place prior to that in the new chronology, so Spock probably doesn't know, or isn't certain that Romulans are Vulcans at that point in time.

 

[Sci]

Well, you sort of answered your own question: Vulcan has at least one colony, named Romulus, filled with billions of Vulcans called Romulans.

Which is why I don't understand why anyone can possibly take the "endangered species" line literally. It's so obviously hyperbole.

Remember Balance of Terror? This obviously takes place prior to that in the new chronology, so Spock probably doesn't know, or isn't certain that Romulans are Vulcans at that point in time.

ST09 has several points that indicate that the Federation knows that Romulans are the descendants of Vulcans by 2258, including Uhura's claim that she can translate all three dialects of Romulan into Federation Standard and Spock's belief that because Romulan is descended from Vulcan he will have an easier time deciphering the Narada's computer codes. The implication seems to be that the Federation learned of the relationship between Romulans and Vulcans much earlier in the new timeline than in the Prime Timeline because of the attack on the U.S.S. Kelvin in 2233, either directly or indirectly.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, you sort of answered your own question: Vulcan has at least one colony, named Romulus, filled with billions of Vulcans called Romulans.

Which is why I don't understand why anyone can possibly take the "endangered species" line literally. It's so obviously hyperbole.

Remember Balance of Terror? This obviously takes place prior to that in the new chronology, so Spock probably doesn't know, or isn't certain that Romulans are Vulcans at that point in time.

Spock does know, as he points out "cultural similarities" between Vulcans and Romulans as his excuse for joining Kirk on the mission to Narada to rescue Pike.

 

[James Wright]

I can't remember the episode of Enterprise where Archer sees into Vulcan's past and meets Surak as he observes Vulcan's nuclear holocaust, if I'm not mistaken it was after the nuclear holcaust and the restoration of Surak's teachings that there was a split in the Vulcan population,(not all Vulcan's wanted to follow Surak's example!), thus the Romulans!

James

 

[Timo]

The episode doesn't tell if the split was before or after that war. Nor is the exact nature of the split revealed in any other episode or movie. For all we know, Vulcans drove the Romulans off planet Vulcan out of racist motivations - they hated the ridges on the foreheads of most Romulans! Vulcans then had to find other excuses to fight among themselves, and it all ended in a nuclear war, but not before Surak planted the seeds of a movement that would unite the planet and impose the now-familiar logic-religion.

Uhura's claim that she can translate all three dialects of Romulan into Federation Standard and Spock's belief that because Romulan is descended from Vulcan he will have an easier time deciphering the Narada's computer codes.

To be accurate, Uhura claimed she knew all the three dialects - it wasn't specified that translating them to Federation Standard would be of importance. Apparently, in that universe at least, Vulcans and Romulans speak the very same language, only with subtle differences (this is what the original comm officer seems to be lamenting), and Uhura knows how to tell a "Cornwall" or "Yorkshire" or "Irish" Romulan from an upperclass "British" Vulcan by nuances.

Also, Spock doesn't say he would understand the codes - he simply suggests he could interface better, perhaps because he speculates that the future computers will study the person trying to access them, and will more readily accept a Vulcanoid than a human.

Also, something I gleaned from watching my Yule present DVD:

Vulcan has at least one colony, named Romulus

Actually, that may well be the only Vulcan colony in existence. After all, at the end of the movie, Spock Prime says he has found the perfect place for a Vulcan colony on which the 10,000 survivors could set shop. If Vulcan had other, preexisting colonies, surely the 10,000 would go there!

Vulcan may have withdrawn from many of its colonies after joining the UFP, or may have allowed those colonies to become multicultural UFP ones. This would necessitate founding a true "New Vulcan" after the loss of the homeworld, in order to reassert the culture without corrupting foreign influences.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

I think the second of those is most likely--in the timeframe we're talking about, outside just massive colonization efforts and a tremendous amount of procreation, no colony is going to have been exploited to the same degree as a homeworld.

Romulus is probably their oldest colony--the only one likely to have an equal or greater population than Vulcan, especially if the founder population was particularly large. Any founded within the last five hundred or so years before 2250--although I still say they're likely to exist--would not have had too much time to produce or pull in a huge Vulcan population, and hence would have been prime candidates for the settlement of humans, Andorians, Tellarites, and so forth, who within just a few generations might wind up dominating the democratic process because of quicker breeding times.

As you say, Vulcan itself may be the only planet with a Vulcan population old enough and large enough to dissuade immigration and maintain its character. (Romulus, as well, but they have a big war fleet and a lot of racism to maintain their character.)

In either case, setting up a specific "New Vulcan" to reestablish the Vulcan government is somewhat strange. It would be damned weird to set up a Vulcan homeland in the middle of the multicultural Federation, wouldn't it? It's the United Federation of Planets, not the Union of South Africa. What are they going to do, set up internal travel restrictions and prohibit humans, Andorians, et al. from emigrating to this "New Vulcan"?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Aren't there Earth Colonies still being established by human UFP citizens? So why not Vulcans? I'm sure the colony would open to all UFP citizens who'd like to live on a Vulcan-like planet. (Don't forget the tri-ox)

 

[Good]

Vulcan may have withdrawn from many of its colonies after joining the UFP, or may have allowed those colonies to become multicultural UFP ones. This would necessitate founding a true "New Vulcan" after the loss of the homeworld, in order to reassert the culture without corrupting foreign influences.
Timo Saloniemi

A fascinating idea which I've been thinking about since I first saw the movie. In fact, I could really see some fascinating things happening with Vulcan culture because of this. We know that they were already insular, I'll bet being reduced to 10,000 would really make them flip out. Can you imagine T'Pau's desire to resist human influence now (assuming the old Vulcan lady glimpsed in the sickbay background in XI is her)?

In fact, you could do some great stories where Vulcans revert back to the "asshole" Vulcans of early ENT. They have enough motives. Protecting their culture, revenge on Romulans (even if they are reluctant to admit to such an emotional response).

If they did seperate from the Federation as Timo suggests, you could even see Vulcan ringships return!

Of course the chances that JJ will go this route are slim to none as it would require thought and a deep understanding of Trek. We're likely to get Kahn instead. It might be fertile territory for novelists though.

 

[Timo]

Aren't there Earth Colonies still being established by human UFP citizens?

That'd depend on the definition of "still". No colony established in the 24th century shows was referred to as an "Earth Colony", not even when all the settlers seen happened to be (Earth?) humans. The designation "Federation Colony" was often used.

All the TOS colonies we saw were human - all two of them, Omicron Ceti and Deneva... But Deneva was old by the time of the show, and Omicron Ceti wasn't really designated an "Earth Colony". Probably UFP members of all persuasions would have been welcome there had the colony successfully taken root. Or at least the initial settlers would have been legally obligated to accept the newcomers. But Sandoval's people didn't claim Omicron Ceti III in the name of Earth - if anything, they claimed it in order to sever their ties to Earth.

Vulcan's violent colonization period was said to be in the past in "Balance of Terror". We don't know if Spock spoke of colonization of Vulcan's various regions, or colonization of outer space, but ENT shows the early Vulcans having offworld interests of all sorts, so we could wager that Spock meant interstellar colonization. That would tie in well with the Romulan backstory: it would then be a Vulcan interstellar colony from the time outer space was being conquered by violent pre-Surakian Vulcans.

Now, how far in the past was that? Supposedly, colonization ended when violence ended, because the colonization period was said to be violent and there was no mention of subsequent nonviolent colonization. That'd mean there would be no post-Surakian interstellar colonies. But Spock could have been omitting the finer nuances of Vulcan history there.

If they did seperate from the Federation as Timo suggests, you could even see Vulcan ringships return!

What are they going to do, set up internal travel restrictions and prohibit humans...

I'm not sure the separate colony would really mean seceding from the Federation. Plenty of member cultures were highly isolationist in TOS and TNG, including the TOS Vulcans themselves! And not all of those isolationists were maintaining their privacy by virtue of superior numbers: places like Ardana had minuscule native (old colonial?) populations yet remained mysteries to the Earthlings and/or to the UFP central government. I gather New Vulcan could turn out very similar to the cloud city of Adrana - a haven of intellectuals, nominally open for all sorts of exchange yet culturally ingrown.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

In either case, setting up a specific "New Vulcan" to reestablish the Vulcan government is somewhat strange. It would be damned weird to set up a Vulcan homeland in the middle of the multicultural Federation, wouldn't it? It's the United Federation of Planets, not the Union of South Africa. What are they going to do, set up internal travel restrictions and prohibit humans, Andorians, et al. from emigrating to this "New Vulcan"?

I don't think that's necessarily the case, but I think it's probably safe to assume that the Vulcan polity has an irrevocable right to exist within the Federation -- and, as such, that it has an inherent right to relocate on a new world and re-establish its specifically Vulcan legal character within the larger Federation.

They probably would not be able to prevent non-Vulcan immigration to New Vulcan, but they would almost certainly be able to set up a government founded on specifically Vulcan principles, endorsing the Surakian belief system, etc. And more than likely, they'd want New Vulcan to be another desert planet out of an attempt to mimic the native Vulcan environment. That alone would probably go a long way towards discouraging too much non-Vulcan immigration to New Vulcan, thus preventing non-Vulcans from dominating the local democratic process.