Voyager's contribution to all time great Trek episodes

[TheKeeper]

Man, maybe I shouldn't have brought this episode up. :P

We're Star trek fans in an Internet forum. I'd worry if we weren't arguing for days about every little thing that comes along.

 

[exodus]

I am baffled why you feel compelled to post facts about Mengele that everyone knows about, or why you're discussing B'Elanna's history, when neither of those answer any of the points I brought up.

Because it didn't matter that the hologram LOOKED Cardassian. It mattered that the database used to build the hologram was tainted, which made the hologram tainted whether he looked Cardassian or looked like Janeway.

I posted the stuff about Mengele to show that the crimes he's accussed of parallel that which Tabor accuses him.

I've tried to show that in our current society, 65 years after Mengele, we have people still refusing to use the data he collected, so why is it strange that B'Elanna's instinct to avoid this database "during" the time of the Cardassian wars, so inconceivable?

Instinct? Was she clairvoyant or something? She just saw a hologram that looked Cardassian and freaked out.

If she had refused because she had problems with the data and was suspicious of the ways that they were collected, then this should have been made clear. As it is... it pretty much comes down to "Cardassians are evil - anything that looks Cardassian is evil - see I was right, they're evil!" Clumsy writing.

I asked you why you post this as (apparently) a defense of the episode. How does any of this - which I already know - make this a good episode? They tried to do an episode about this issue, I was interested and expected it to be great because I love exploration of such ethical issues, and it turned out to be a bad episode that botched the concept completely and didn't explore the issue in any meaningful way.

Janeway (though the Doctor was the biggest hypocrite) having her cake and eating it was just the episode having its cake and eating it : cure B'Elanna, and then get on the high horse and, instead of exploring the issue, come completely to the side of 'no, we should not use the results of inhumane, criminal experiments' - conveniently, after they've done just that and saved a main character. There's no real debate in the episode, we're told in no uncertain terms that there is just one ethical thing to do, destroy the data and not use the cure, and if the Doctor seemed to argue a different position, any semblance of having two sides of the case presented is erased when he decides to erase the program at the end.

And all that time, nobody ever asks if they had ever before used medical or other knowledge gained through inhumane means. Now that would have made it a really interesting and serious debate. But all we get is Moset hologram (by that time firmly established as villain) make some remark about Human scientists using lower animals to experiment on. That's it? That's all they could come up with? The history of human medicine is full of examples of experimentation on humans, not just animals - and many important discoveries before the 20th century were made through experiments on humans, often mental patients. But they either don't know or chose to forget about that. Just like they chose to ignore the fact that Voyager is using Borg technology all the time. But I suppose that's OK, because the Borg never did anything they'd consider inhumane...

No, she never said anything about Crell Moset. She didn't even seem to know who Crell Moset was, or at least she never recognized that the hologram looked like him. But no. She didn't say anything about Moset, she just hated that the hologram looked like a Cardassian.

You have to get passed the "..but it's a hologram" thing to understand this because it's not about any of that. It's about what "it" represents.

For Be'Lanna, seeing a Cardassian. Any Cardassian, real or fake brings out her prejudice. She was abused by them, all the Maquis were. That's why they fought back. Seeing any representation of them brings back those memories for her. She hates Cardassians, ALL OF THEM for that reason.

For Tabor, he sees the man that murdered his family. It doesn't matter it's a hologram. It wears the face of the man that murdered his family. Who would be comfortable with something like that? You'd have to be emotionally dead, too look at an image of the man that killed your parents and not feel rage.

The Doctor deleted Crell because he was empathic to how Be'Lanna & Tabor, his friends and shipmates felt about the hologram and the real Crell. "it" represented to many bad things to too many people. In good conscience, he deleted it.

Roll credits...

Tabor or Torres having such reactions is not surprising and is understandable. But it doesn't explain why the writers of this episode made the hologram that the Doctor created start talking and behaving in the way that suggests he is the same as the real Moset. Seeing the real Moset in the hologram is an irrational reaction - but the episode treats it as rational, and expects us to think that the hologram and Moset are one and the same. Again, clumsy, lazy, silly writing. If you draw a picture of Mengele, it won't magically turn into Mengele. And Star Trek is not supernatural fantasy for that to happen.

The ep. expects us to understand empathy.

Flying thru space in a ship with replicators & warp drive, Klingons, Ferengi, Q to name a few is all fantasy. Vulcans, Betazoids are telepahic, Ocampia are psychokenetic & time travel are all aspects of the supernatural.

 

[DevilEyes]

Tabor or Torres having such reactions is not surprising and is understandable. But it doesn't explain why the writers of this episode made the hologram that the Doctor created start talking and behaving in the way that suggests he is the same as the real Moset. Seeing the real Moset in the hologram is an irrational reaction - but the episode treats it as rational, and expects us to think that the hologram and Moset are one and the same. Again, clumsy, lazy, silly writing. If you draw a picture of Mengele, it won't magically turn into Mengele. And Star Trek is not supernatural fantasy for that to happen.

The ep. expects us to understand empathy.

Umm... what?

Me: "The hologram was a hologram, was Moset, so why is the episode treating them as one and the same?"
You: "The episode expects us to understand empathy"


Unless you are confused about the meaning of the word 'empathy', you're not making any sense.

Flying thru space in a ship with replicators & warp drive, Klingons, Ferengi, Q to name a few is all fantasy. Vulcans, Betazoids are telepahic, Ocampia are psychokenetic & time travel are all aspects of the supernatural.

Ah, so it was an episode with an amazing supernatural event at the core of the story - an instance where an image of a person literally became that person! Well, then why the heck didn't anyone in the episode mention such a momentous event?

 

[exodus]

Tabor or Torres having such reactions is not surprising and is understandable. But it doesn't explain why the writers of this episode made the hologram that the Doctor created start talking and behaving in the way that suggests he is the same as the real Moset. Seeing the real Moset in the hologram is an irrational reaction - but the episode treats it as rational, and expects us to think that the hologram and Moset are one and the same. Again, clumsy, lazy, silly writing. If you draw a picture of Mengele, it won't magically turn into Mengele. And Star Trek is not supernatural fantasy for that to happen.

The ep. expects us to understand empathy.

Umm... what?

Me: "The hologram was a hologram, was Moset, so why is the episode treating them as one and the same?"
You: "The episode expects us to understand empathy"


Unless you are confused about the meaning of the word 'empathy', you're not making any sense.

Flying thru space in a ship with replicators & warp drive, Klingons, Ferengi, Q to name a few is all fantasy. Vulcans, Betazoids are telepahic, Ocampia are psychokenetic & time travel are all aspects of the supernatural.

Ah, so it was an episode with an amazing supernatural event at the core of the story - an instance where an image of a person literally became that person! Well, then why the heck didn't anyone in the episode mention such a momentous event?

I give up.

 

[Destructor]

You have to get passed the "..but it's a hologram" thing to understand this because it's not about any of that. It's about what "it" represents.

This. The 'Krell hologram' was a symbol for unethical medical research. Be'lanna represented people who refuse treatment derived from unethical medical research. Obviously other characters don't care so much about this as is demonstrated by the use of borg nanoprobes (although the borg don't actually torture to gain research- they just assimilate). Star Trek is full of these symbols. All of the species in Star Trek that are not human are symbols. There are a thousand logical inconsistencies we must ignore in Trek in order for it to 'work'. You're just choosing to pick up on one that isn't even that big a deal- that a hologram can seem real enough to create revulsion in someone. Maybe the episode could have been written to ignore this contradiction, but that it wasn't doesn't automatically make it instantly implausible. As a metaphor, it works.

 

[Admiral Shran]

I could go on about all the things that are wrong with this episode, as I've already done a few times on various threads - from the many plotholes and illogical behavior by everyone, the inconsistency regarding the nature and sentience of holograms (one of the major themes of the show in general), to the casual racism towards Cardassians by a couple of regulars that is presented as being justified (something I don't remember a Trek show ever doing at any other time), to the hypocrisy and the one-sided arguments and a lack of mention of unethical medical experiments on humans throughout real life human history (all they could come up with was the Moset hologram mentioning humans conducting experiments on lower animals)...but I don't want to derail the thread.

It's one of those episodes that aim to be important and deep and thought-provoking and deal with a serious issue, but end up doing it in all the wrong ways and being incredibly shallow and hypocritical, not to mention full of illogical moments, out of character behavior and inconsistencies that come from manipulating the viewer and skewing the story in order to spoon-feed 'the message' to the viewer. If you actually start thinking about the events in the episode, it all falls like a house of cards. I remember starting to watch it expecting it to be great, and getting more and more bothered and pissed off with every scene.

I feel pretty much the same way. I remember when I first saw the episode, I kind of liked it up until Torres said this....

"Hologram or not, he's Cardassian. As far as I'm concerned, they're all cold-blooded killers"

At that point I literally facepalmed and thought "ARE YOU F#@KING KIDDING ME?!"

Actually, this ep is one of the few times the Maquis members like B'Elanna are used realistically. That is, these aren't highly idealistic Starfleet people -- they're regular folks who have definite prejudices toward the Cardassians because of their experiences fighting them.

As for the eps that come to my mind that are great contributions to the Trek mythos, I'd say this one should be on the list, as well as: Death Wish, Jetrel, Living Witness, The Thaw, and Scorpion.

I might have been able to accept that B'Elanna still had a deep and abiding hate of all things Cardassian, and still held on to a racial bigotry, if we had seen some more glimpses of that before this episode.

Up until then, she was shown as slowly but surely coming to accept the Starfleet lifestyle and mindset. Then, all of the sudden, and for no reason other than that the plot demanded it, she was a racial bigot all over again.

And DevilEyes makes very good points - IT WAS JUST A HOLOGRAM, it wasn't a Cardassian!

It might have actually made more sense if The Doctor had changed the hologram's appearance to Human and B'Elanna still refused treatment on the grounds that it was Cardasssian knowledge, gained through the horrific abuse of Bajorans, that they were using.

 

[exodus]

I'm starting to see why Norman Lear created "All In The Family" to explain what bigotry was to the masses.

 

[DevilEyes]

You have to get passed the "..but it's a hologram" thing to understand this because it's not about any of that. It's about what "it" represents.

This. The 'Krell hologram' was a symbol for unethical medical research. Be'lanna represented people who refuse treatment derived from unethical medical research. Obviously other characters don't care so much about this as is demonstrated by the use of borg nanoprobes (although the borg don't actually torture to gain research- they just assimilate). Star Trek is full of these symbols. All of the species in Star Trek that are not human are symbols. There are a thousand logical inconsistencies we must ignore in Trek in order for it to 'work'. You're just choosing to pick up on one that isn't even that big a deal- that a hologram can seem real enough to create revulsion in someone. Maybe the episode could have been written to ignore this contradiction, but that it wasn't doesn't automatically make it instantly implausible. As a metaphor, it works.

I am choosing on the one inconsistency/illogicality that is a big deal - characters not acting in a way that is at least remotely plausible. That's the realism I expect from everything I watch, including SF. I can forgive bad physics, bad genetics, etc. but I can't forgive characters acting in a way that makes no sense. That's just bad fiction, period. I expect Star Trek to feature characters, not symbols. Is that's what you think Trek is - no more psychologically realistic than a medieval morality play?

It might have actually made more sense if The Doctor had changed the hologram's appearance to Human and B'Elanna still refused treatment on the grounds that it was Cardasssian knowledge, gained through the horrific abuse of Bajorans, that they were using.

Yes.

The way it was, it just made everyone look incredibly stupid.

I'm starting to see why Norman Lear created "All In The Family" to explain what bigotry was to the masses.

I'm starting to see why Vulcans find humans so illogical.

 

[Trek_princess]

I know I'm forgetting some, but here are some of my favorites:

Distant Origin
Scorpian
False Profits (I like Ferengi, so sue me)
Nothing Human (please don't hurt me guys)
Someone to Watch Over Me
Latent Image
The Q and the Grey
Q2

I've always hated "Tuvix" - I was surprised that it got support.

 

[DevilEyes]

I know I'm forgetting some, but here are some of my favorites:

Distant Origin
Scorpian
False Profits (I like Ferengi, so sue me)
Nothing Human (please don't hurt me guys)
Someone to Watch Over Me
Latent Image
The Q and the Grey
Q2

I've always hated "Tuvix" - I was surprised that it got support.

Don't worry, if I decide to sue you or hurt you, it might be for The Q and the Grey instead.

 

[I am not Spock]

Death Wish
Distant Origin
Scorpion
Living Witness
The Year of Hell
Timeless
Equinox
Blink of An Eye

 

[Ablative_Oberth]

Timeless is part of my All Trek Top 10 List.

 

[exodus]

I'm starting to see why Vulcans find humans so illogical.

So you can't see how the characters can project feelings onto a hologram but you can do it with Vulcans?

I see.

 

[DevilEyes]

I'm starting to see why Vulcans find humans so illogical.

So you can't see how the characters can project feelings onto a hologram but you can do it with Vulcans?

I see.

I think the Universal Translator must be malfunctioning. How else can I explain that I can't make any sense of your posts anymore?

 

[stj]

Whatever is an all time great Trek episode? If it's supposed to be one that wows even non-SF fans, there probably haven't been any such episodes since Star Trek made fans for the franchise. But there are some by Trek fans' perspective.

An exciting, suspenseful or even sensational story about the adventures of characters we get interested in?

First season, Caretaker and Eye of the Needle.

Second season, Projections, Lifesigns, Resistance, Deadlock, The Thaw, Tuvix and Resolutions.

Third season, The Chute, The Q and the Gray, Future's End, Before and After, Worst Case Scenario and Scorpion.

Fourth season, The Raven, Year of Hell, Killing Game, Message in a Bottle, and Hope and Fear.

Fifth season, Drone, Timeless, Counterpoint, Bride of Chaotica, Dark Frontier and Someone to Watch Over Me.

Sixth season, Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy; Child's Play, Lifeline and Unimatrix Zero.

Seventh season, Imperfection, Workforce; Author, Author and Endgame.

If you don't like the characters, this list is much, much shorter.


Or are the great episodes not so much adventurous as thought provoking, on the themes of death and the role of art?

Season one, Emanations and Jetrel.

Season two, Twisted, Alliances, Meld, Death Wish and Innocence.

Season three, Remember, Sacred Ground, Unity, Real Life and Distant Origin.

Season four, Nemesis, Random Thoughts, Mortal Coil and Living Witness.

Season five, Course: Oblivion and 11:59.

Season six, Memorial, Ashes to Ashes and Muse.

Season seven, The Void.

These tend to be controversial, since lots of people think of thought povoking stories as preaching, and reject them on principle. Thematically driven episodes tend to be underrated or even hated, like Favorite Son and Demon.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

stj:

Whatever is an all time great Trek episode? If it's supposed to be one that wows even non-SF fans, there probably haven't been any such episodes since Star Trek made fans for the franchise. But there are some by Trek fans' perspective.

An exciting, suspenseful or even sensational story about the adventures of characters we get interested in?

stj:

Or are the great episodes not so much adventurous as thought provoking, on the themes of death and the role of art?

I can't quibble with either list, except to suggest "Deadlock" deserves to be on both.

Consider Kirk's question to Saavik in STII "Wrath of Khan"....
"The no win scenario is something we all must consider... how we face death is at least as important as how we face life."

During that last 5 minute, mute voice countdown on Janeway's Voyager, we saw how she and her entire bridge crew "faced" death.

With dignity.

"Welcome to the bridge."

 

[vas2009]

Counterpoint ~Definitely
Doctor, Tinker, Tenor, Spy ~Hilarious
Futures End ~ Captain, you've got some cohunes.
Year of Hell ~ Awsome destruction
Macrocosm ~ Janeway Power
Q and The Grey ~ Satin Sheets
Bride of Chaotica ~ Guilty Pleasure
DEADLOCK ~ Double the pleasure, double the fun...
The Void ~ Really underrated, Janeway's finest diplomatic skilz.
The Haunting on Deck 12 ~ Great story.
Shattered ~ Really sums things up.
Fair Haven/ Spirit Folk ~ Honestly I don't know why I like these so much, just do and I have to watch them together.


This is just a small list

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Top 5

Scorpion, Parts 1 & 2
Year of Hell, Parts 1 & 2
Living Witness
Timeless (aka "the better Endgame")
Blink of an Eye


Other notable mentions

Distant Origin
Season 4's Hirogen arc
Drone
Dark Frontier

 

[froot]

Timeless (aka "the better Endgame")

Amen.