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Voyager's contribution to all time great Trek episodes

Thaw scared me when was a kid but its a gd ep, there's so many to pick.. erm
Killing game
Latent image
Resistance
Year of hell
Death wish
Deadlock
sacred ground
 
"Dreadnought."

As for why I believe it ranks... lets just say the computer ate my post and I took that as an omen.

:-)
 
Timeless is definitely my favorite VOY episode. Hands down. Absolutely nothing will change my mind, and if I'm lying the Jabberwock can come and bite my head off.
 
Ugh. You consider Dear Doctor a great episode? :wtf:

It's not even a good episode. It's one of the worst examples of Trek combining bad science with horribly bad ethics.

Well... I did have to pick from Enterprise, it wasn't exactly easy to find a good one. But no, I think DD is notable for having a coherent argument for the Prime Directive in it. Often in TOS and TNG the PD was treated more like a burden, or a bad idea, or something to find loopholes in or deny directly. It was nice to be shown that, yeah, when you go out there you really can fuck shit up.
 
I actually really like that one. It's not perfectly executed, but the exploration of the very real issue of immoral medical research was well explored and very thought provoking. I'd actually completely forgotten about this, but recalling it now I remember being very touched.
I could go on about all the things that are wrong with this episode, as I've already done a few times on various threads - from the many plotholes and illogical behavior by everyone, the inconsistency regarding the nature and sentience of holograms (one of the major themes of the show in general), to the casual racism towards Cardassians by a couple of regulars that is presented as being justified (something I don't remember a Trek show ever doing at any other time), to the hypocrisy and the one-sided arguments and a lack of mention of unethical medical experiments on humans throughout real life human history (all they could come up with was the Moset hologram mentioning humans conducting experiments on lower animals)...but I don't want to derail the thread.

It's one of those episodes that aim to be important and deep and thought-provoking and deal with a serious issue, but end up doing it in all the wrong ways and being incredibly shallow and hypocritical, not to mention full of illogical moments, out of character behavior and inconsistencies that come from manipulating the viewer and skewing the story in order to spoon-feed 'the message' to the viewer. If you actually start thinking about the events in the episode, it all falls like a house of cards. I remember starting to watch it expecting it to be great, and getting more and more bothered and pissed off with every scene.

I feel pretty much the same way. I remember when I first saw the episode, I kind of liked it up until Torres said this....

"Hologram or not, he's Cardassian. As far as I'm concerned, they're all cold-blooded killers"

At that point I literally facepalmed and thought "ARE YOU F#@KING KIDDING ME?!" :brickwall:

Actually, this ep is one of the few times the Maquis members like B'Elanna are used realistically. That is, these aren't highly idealistic Starfleet people -- they're regular folks who have definite prejudices toward the Cardassians because of their experiences fighting them.

As for the eps that come to my mind that are great contributions to the Trek mythos, I'd say this one should be on the list, as well as: Death Wish, Jetrel, Living Witness, The Thaw, and Scorpion.
 
Ugh. You consider Dear Doctor a great episode? :wtf:

It's not even a good episode. It's one of the worst examples of Trek combining bad science with horribly bad ethics.

Well... I did have to pick from Enterprise, it wasn't exactly easy to find a good one. But no, I think DD is notable for having a coherent argument for the Prime Directive in it. Often in TOS and TNG the PD was treated more like a burden, or a bad idea, or something to find loopholes in or deny directly. It was nice to be shown that, yeah, when you go out there you really can fuck shit up.

Actually it was the opposite... It didn't present any sort of good argument for the Prime Directive, and presented an example of people using an idiotic version of PD (which did not even exist!) in other to justify mass murder (that's what you're doing by withholding a cure to a bunch of mortally ill people) :eek: If ever there was an episode that showed PD as complete crap, that's the one.

It's also another example of Trek writers knowing nothing about evolution. They just love to use that word, 'evolution', and every time they use it, they screw it up totally.


I could go on about all the things that are wrong with this episode, as I've already done a few times on various threads - from the many plotholes and illogical behavior by everyone, the inconsistency regarding the nature and sentience of holograms (one of the major themes of the show in general), to the casual racism towards Cardassians by a couple of regulars that is presented as being justified (something I don't remember a Trek show ever doing at any other time), to the hypocrisy and the one-sided arguments and a lack of mention of unethical medical experiments on humans throughout real life human history (all they could come up with was the Moset hologram mentioning humans conducting experiments on lower animals)...but I don't want to derail the thread.

It's one of those episodes that aim to be important and deep and thought-provoking and deal with a serious issue, but end up doing it in all the wrong ways and being incredibly shallow and hypocritical, not to mention full of illogical moments, out of character behavior and inconsistencies that come from manipulating the viewer and skewing the story in order to spoon-feed 'the message' to the viewer. If you actually start thinking about the events in the episode, it all falls like a house of cards. I remember starting to watch it expecting it to be great, and getting more and more bothered and pissed off with every scene.

I feel pretty much the same way. I remember when I first saw the episode, I kind of liked it up until Torres said this....

"Hologram or not, he's Cardassian. As far as I'm concerned, they're all cold-blooded killers"

At that point I literally facepalmed and thought "ARE YOU F#@KING KIDDING ME?!" :brickwall:

Actually, this ep is one of the few times the Maquis members like B'Elanna are used realistically. That is, these aren't highly idealistic Starfleet people -- they're regular folks who have definite prejudices toward the Cardassians because of their experiences fighting them.
.
And being a regular folk includes being a complete idiot? It's not a Cardassian, it's a freaking HOLOGRAM, for crying out loud! A hologram created by the Doctor! :rolleyes:

But if 'realistic' portrayal of B'Elanna is that she is an idiot, why is the Doctor and everyone else being an idiot? Why all the fuss over B'Elanna refusing treatment only because the Doctor is using an assistant with a Cardassian appearance - when the whole thing could have been solved by a simple "Computer, change parameters to: Human"?! :vulcan:

It gets even stupider when it's revealed what Moset did on Bajor, and B'Elanna, on hearing it, says "So I was right". Um, right about what? B'Elanna knew nothing about Moset and her problem with the hologram wasn't that he looked like Moset, it was that he looked Cardassian! What was B'Elanna right about? That all Cardassians are evil? That anything that looks like a Cardassian, even it's a hologram, is evil? :cardie: And this complete lack of logic is not mentioned by anyone. Normally when you see a person with racial prejudice on a Trek show, the show calls them upon it, you don't get the impression that the episode is presenting their views as justified and right.

The most baffling thing of all is that everyone in the episode keeps treating the hologram as if it was Crell Moset himself - and the episode itself seems unable to make the distinction, so it has the hologram say and do things that are supposed to make him seem like Moset to the audience... which makes NO SENSE, since it's just a HOLOGRAM CREATED BY THE DOCTOR from the partial data in Starfleet's records - and obviously he liked what he saw in those records enough to decide to use it as a basis for his assistant. So if the hologram is non-sentient, you have nobody to blame but its creator (i.e. the Doctor) if the hologram falls short of your ethical standards. And if the hologram is sentient (which, incidentally, would make the Doctor a murderer since he erased him at the end of the episode), there's still absolutely no reason for him to be anything like the real Moset, beyond the meager data about his personality from the Starfleet records. I suppose if Lewis Zimmerman was to kill or rape someone on Earth, they'd arrest the Doctor immediately? :vulcan: And heck, the Doctor actually has more to do with Zimmerman than the Moset hologram has with Moset, since Zimmerman actually created the Doctor - and we still see over and over again that the Doctor is his own person and very different from Zimmerman!
 
I could have sworn in the ep. the Doctor told Be'lanna that she was letting her "irrational bigotry blind her". I do recall him saying that. So they already covered the reason for being hateful toward a hologram.

I agree with Red Ranger.
I'm pretty sure any actual suvivor of the Holocaust would feel just as much rage toward Hitler, even if it was just a hologram of him. The crimes and attrocities these folks commited were so heinous they transend the flesh. It's one of the psychological effects of oppression & brutialaztion.

I think anyone here that might have been bullied while growing up might also have a grasp of this concept.
When presented with the image of your tormentor, all those feelings come back to the surface.
 
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Dr. Josef Mengele, nicknamed The Angel Of Death, and the other Nazi doctors at the death camps tortured men, women and children and did medical experiments of unspeakable horror during the Holocaust.

Victims were put into pressure chambers, tested with drugs, castrated, frozen to death. Children were exposed to experimental surgeries performed without anesthesia, transfusions of blood from one to another, isolation endurance, reaction to various stimuli. The doctors made injections with lethal germs, sex change operations, removal of organs and limbs.

At Auschwitz Josef Mengele did a number of medical experiments, using twins. These twins as young as five years of age were usually murdered after the experiment was over and their bodies dissected. Mengele injected chemicals into the eyes of the children in an attempt to change their eye color.

He carried out twin-to-twin transfusions, stitched twins together, castrated or sterilized twins. Many twins had limbs and organs removed in macabre surgical procedures, performed without using an anesthetic.

I understand you see this as "Cardassian" Racism, but you must recall that B'Elanna is less than 5 years away from waging war with these people, from not trusting them or their motives. The only reason she wasn't fighting to that day was because she was removed from the field, not because thw war ended.

She may be focusing on "the hologram", but in truth she's focusing on everything it represents.

For the last 65 years there has been an argument raging through the scientific/medical community whether to USE the data collected by the Nazis in their experiments.

No holograms involved. Just straight forward "research" papers.

TABOR: That's Crell Moset.
MOSET: Yes. Do I know you?
TABOR: He killed my brother, my grandfather, hundreds of people! He's a mass murderer!

and later

TABOR: I can still remember the sounds his instruments made. The screams of his patients. The smell of chemicals and dead flesh. He operated on my grandfather Exposed his internal organs to nadion radiation. It took six days for him to die. I promised myself I would never forget.
EMH: You were very young. Is it possible your memory of these events is inaccurate?
TABOR: My memory's just fine. He blinded people so he could study how they adapted. Exposed them to polytrinic acid just to see how long it would take for their skin to heal.
EMH: Ensign, the man you're accusing cured the fostossa virus. He stopped an epidemic that killed thousands of Bajorans!
TABOR: By infecting hundreds of people so that he could experiment with different treatments. Old, helpless people like my grandfather because he considered their lives worthless.
EMH: How do you know this?
TABOR: Everybody knew!
CHAKOTAY: I remember some of the Maquis under my command talking about an infamous Cardassian doctor.
EMH: Could these simply have been rumours spread by Bajorans who hated the Cardassians?
TABOR: I was there!


Yes, B'Elanna was prejudiced, but as we see, she had a reason to be.
 
I could have sworn in the ep. the Doctor told Be'lanna that she was letting her "irrational bigotry blind her". I do recall him saying that. So they already covered the reason for being hateful toward a hologram.
Still doesn't explain why the Doctor didn't simply tell the computer: "Change appearance to Human". And later B'Elanna says "So I was right" and they just leave it at that. Right about what?

TABOR: That's Crell Moset.
MOSET: Yes. Do I know you?
...
Actually, it is not. It's a hologram created by the Doctor.
</discussion

I am baffled why you feel compelled to post facts about Mengele that everyone knows about, or why you're discussing B'Elanna's history, when neither of those answer any of the points I brought up. The episode is just stupid, and that's it. Saying that it TRIED to explore an important issue is beside the point - an attempt to do something is hardly enough to make a good episode. It is a bad episode, because it did it in an extremely clumsy way, it was full of holes and was generally very badly written.
 
I could have sworn in the ep. the Doctor told Be'lanna that she was letting her "irrational bigotry blind her". I do recall him saying that. So they already covered the reason for being hateful toward a hologram.
Still doesn't explain why the Doctor didn't simply tell the computer: "Change appearance to Human". And later B'Elanna says "So I was right" and they just leave it at that. Right about what?
If he did that, there'd be no point to the ep.

She was right about Crell Mosset being evil.
 
I could have sworn in the ep. the Doctor told Be'lanna that she was letting her "irrational bigotry blind her". I do recall him saying that. So they already covered the reason for being hateful toward a hologram.
Still doesn't explain why the Doctor didn't simply tell the computer: "Change appearance to Human". And later B'Elanna says "So I was right" and they just leave it at that. Right about what?
If he did that, there'd be no point to the ep.

She was right about Crell Mosset being evil.
No, she never said anything about Crell Moset. She didn't even seem to know who Crell Moset was, or at least she never recognized that the hologram looked like him. But no. She didn't say anything about Moset, she just hated that the hologram looked like a Cardassian.
 
I am baffled why you feel compelled to post facts about Mengele that everyone knows about, or why you're discussing B'Elanna's history, when neither of those answer any of the points I brought up.

Because it didn't matter that the hologram LOOKED Cardassian. It mattered that the database used to build the hologram was tainted, which made the hologram tainted whether he looked Cardassian or looked like Janeway.

I posted the stuff about Mengele to show that the crimes he's accussed of parallel that which Tabor accuses him.

I've tried to show that in our current society, 65 years after Mengele, we have people still refusing to use the data he collected, so why is it strange that B'Elanna's instinct to avoid this database "during" the time of the Cardassian wars, so inconceivable?

In the show we discover that Tabor works closely with B'Elanna, and we learn from Chakotay that stories have circulated about an "infamous Cardassian Doctor", so why is it wrong to think that B'Elanna hadn't heard such stories in her Maquis association, and was prejudiced against "all" Cardassian Doctors?

You hate the ep, I get it. Okay.

I hate the fake plastic bug they put on B'Elanna's chest for 40 minutes.

I thought Janeway was too chicken to make the moralistic call, and left it in the EMH's hands too long to decide what to do with the database. By doing what she did, she had her cake and ate it too. She used the database to save B'Elanna, then it was erased to assuage the Maquis/Bajorans who remained on Board Voyager.

As for why I keep posting... because Voyager IS fake... but the Crimes committed by these so called Doctors is VERY real.

Whether it be the US public health Service & the Tuskegee Institute studying "Syphillis in the untreated Negro Male" on 399 unsuspecting men from1932-1972, or the infamous Nazi Doctors doing all the horrendous experiments detailed in my above posting, or Dr Milgram's psychological experiments on unknowing subjects at Yale in the 1960's which brought about new rules in human experimentation at universities over the next 10 years, the hubris of the physician or the scientific community can not be allowed to overshadow the morality of a nation.

If it does, IMO, we have all lost a piece of our soul.
 
Still doesn't explain why the Doctor didn't simply tell the computer: "Change appearance to Human". And later B'Elanna says "So I was right" and they just leave it at that. Right about what?
If he did that, there'd be no point to the ep.

She was right about Crell Mosset being evil.
No, she never said anything about Crell Moset. She didn't even seem to know who Crell Moset was, or at least she never recognized that the hologram looked like him. But no. She didn't say anything about Moset, she just hated that the hologram looked like a Cardassian.
You have to get passed the "..but it's a hologram" thing to understand this because it's not about any of that. It's about what "it" represents.

For Be'Lanna, seeing a Cardassian. Any Cardassian, real or fake brings out her prejudice. She was abused by them, all the Maquis were. That's why they fought back. Seeing any representation of them brings back those memories for her. She hates Cardassians, ALL OF THEM for that reason.

For Tabor, he sees the man that murdered his family. It doesn't matter it's a hologram. It wears the face of the man that murdered his family. Who would be comfortable with something like that? You'd have to be emotionally dead, too look at an image of the man that killed your parents and not feel rage.

The Doctor deleted Crell because he was empathic to how Be'Lanna & Tabor, his friends and shipmates felt about the hologram and the real Crell. "it" represented to many bad things to too many people. In good conscience, he deleted it.

Roll credits...
 
I am baffled why you feel compelled to post facts about Mengele that everyone knows about, or why you're discussing B'Elanna's history, when neither of those answer any of the points I brought up.
Because it didn't matter that the hologram LOOKED Cardassian. It mattered that the database used to build the hologram was tainted, which made the hologram tainted whether he looked Cardassian or looked like Janeway.

I posted the stuff about Mengele to show that the crimes he's accussed of parallel that which Tabor accuses him.

I've tried to show that in our current society, 65 years after Mengele, we have people still refusing to use the data he collected, so why is it strange that B'Elanna's instinct to avoid this database "during" the time of the Cardassian wars, so inconceivable?
Instinct? Was she clairvoyant or something? She just saw a hologram that looked Cardassian and freaked out.

If she had refused because she had problems with the data and was suspicious of the ways that they were collected, then this should have been made clear. As it is... it pretty much comes down to "Cardassians are evil - anything that looks Cardassian is evil - see I was right, they're evil!" Clumsy writing.

As for why I keep posting... because Voyager IS fake... but the Crimes committed by these so called Doctors is VERY real.

Whether it be the US public health Service & the Tuskegee Institute studying "Syphillis in the untreated Negro Male" on 399 unsuspecting men from1932-1972, or the infamous Nazi Doctors doing all the horrendous experiments detailed in my above posting, or Dr Milgram's psychological experiments on unknowing subjects at Yale in the 1960's which brought about new rules in human experimentation at universities over the next 10 years, the hubris of the physician or the scientific community can not be allowed to overshadow the morality of a nation.

If it does, IMO, we have all lost a piece of our soul.
I asked you why you post this as (apparently) a defense of the episode. How does any of this - which I already know - make this a good episode? They tried to do an episode about this issue, I was interested and expected it to be great because I love exploration of such ethical issues, and it turned out to be a bad episode that botched the concept completely and didn't explore the issue in any meaningful way.

Janeway (though the Doctor was the biggest hypocrite) having her cake and eating it was just the episode having its cake and eating it : cure B'Elanna, and then get on the high horse and, instead of exploring the issue, come completely to the side of 'no, we should not use the results of inhumane, criminal experiments' - conveniently, after they've done just that and saved a main character. There's no real debate in the episode, we're told in no uncertain terms that there is just one ethical thing to do, destroy the data and not use the cure, and if the Doctor seemed to argue a different position, any semblance of having two sides of the case presented is erased when he decides to erase the program at the end.

And all that time, nobody ever asks if they had ever before used medical or other knowledge gained through inhumane means. Now that would have made it a really interesting and serious debate. But all we get is Moset hologram (by that time firmly established as villain) make some remark about Human scientists using lower animals to experiment on. That's it? That's all they could come up with? The history of human medicine is full of examples of experimentation on humans, not just animals - and many important discoveries before the 20th century were made through experiments on humans, often mental patients. But they either don't know or chose to forget about that. Just like they chose to ignore the fact that Voyager is using Borg technology all the time. But I suppose that's OK, because the Borg never did anything they'd consider inhumane...


If he did that, there'd be no point to the ep.

She was right about Crell Mosset being evil.
No, she never said anything about Crell Moset. She didn't even seem to know who Crell Moset was, or at least she never recognized that the hologram looked like him. But no. She didn't say anything about Moset, she just hated that the hologram looked like a Cardassian.
You have to get passed the "..but it's a hologram" thing to understand this because it's not about any of that. It's about what "it" represents.

For Be'Lanna, seeing a Cardassian. Any Cardassian, real or fake brings out her prejudice. She was abused by them, all the Maquis were. That's why they fought back. Seeing any representation of them brings back those memories for her. She hates Cardassians, ALL OF THEM for that reason.

For Tabor, he sees the man that murdered his family. It doesn't matter it's a hologram. It wears the face of the man that murdered his family. Who would be comfortable with something like that? You'd have to be emotionally dead, too look at an image of the man that killed your parents and not feel rage.

The Doctor deleted Crell because he was empathic to how Be'Lanna & Tabor, his friends and shipmates felt about the hologram and the real Crell. "it" represented to many bad things to too many people. In good conscience, he deleted it.

Roll credits...
Tabor or Torres having such reactions is not surprising and is understandable. But it doesn't explain why the writers of this episode made the hologram that the Doctor created start talking and behaving in the way that suggests he is the same as the real Moset. Seeing the real Moset in the hologram is an irrational reaction - but the episode treats it as rational, and expects us to think that the hologram and Moset are one and the same. Again, clumsy, lazy, silly writing. If you draw a picture of Mengele, it won't magically turn into Mengele. And Star Trek is not supernatural fantasy for that to happen.

If they wanted so much to include Crell Moset as a character in the episode, they should have come up with a way to include the real Moset - through a flashback or something - rather than make this complete mess, which goes against everything we learned about holograms on the show (and this was a major theme on VOY).
 
My opinion on B'Ellana Torres' behaviour in "Nothing human" is that she was being unbelievably selfish. Had she ever thought of how much pain and suffering her death would cause to those who cared about her? It never crosses her mind for a second. She'd let herself die, and for what reason? Because she wanted to preserve her precious morality, feelings of others be damned! Janeway was right:"Get over it, that's an order!" In fact, she should have dressed her down like Riker did to Worf in "Ethics". It wasn't Janeway on her high horse, it was B'Ellana.
 
^ I didn't say Janeway took the 'high horse' position - she was just being pragmatic (which is a good thing, IMO), and Tom was the one with the normal human reaction "I just want my wife to live"... B'Elanna was acting like an idiot, and the Doctor ended up being a hypocrite - first he wants to use the cure to save B'Elanna, then when she's safe, he changes his mind, gets moralistic and deletes the program he created. But it's the the writers who are the most hypocritical - they manage to have their cake and eat it - preaching that it's wrong to use a cure that came as a result of unethical and inhumane experiments, while failing to show the consequences of such an attitude by having B'Elanna die. So what happens if someone else happens to be in mortal danger in the future and needs this cure, or some other cure that came through less than ethical means*? Though I guess it won't matter if they aren't a main character...

* Which reminds me - are they still using those Borg nanites they used to revive Neelix?
 
* Which reminds me - are they still using those Borg nanites they used to revive Neelix?

Like I said, this episode is sort of invalidated by the fact that they use Borg tech on a regular basis. For, like, everything. Including bringing back Neelix.
 
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