Voyager: The Borg

[Anwar]

How were the Borg overused in VOY? They only appeared like, 8 times in major roles.

It wasn't that, it was that according to these guys since the Borg weren't portrayed as their usual utterly-invincible selves (like "Scorpion") it was an unforgivable cardinal sin that utterly ruined them. Never mind that if they WERE invincible then VOY would be OVER.

Never mind that as soon as anyone does a Televised story where there are plenty of Redshirts to get killed off, the Borg will be back to their usual invincible selves since now people can be killed without harming main characters.

 

[Withers]

That's what Anwar wants the reason to be but that isn't it. I get that Voyager, after an encounter with the Borg, has to "win" at least in the sense that the ship gets away and no one is seriously injured or killed. I get it. That's... just how it has to go. My problem was that they started getting lazy about it. They accepted that fact and just started making up stuff to get from encounter to victory that wasn't plausible let alone creative.

The Borg didn't stop being scary because they were beaten so many times. The Borg stopped being scary because of how they were beaten, that they were hunted, and yes, because of the sheer number of times they were tossed around by one Starfleet crew.

-Withers-​

 

[RyuRoots]

How were the Borg overused in VOY? They only appeared like, 8 times in major roles.

It wasn't that, it was that according to these guys since the Borg weren't portrayed as their usual utterly-invincible selves (like "Scorpion") it was an unforgivable cardinal sin that utterly ruined them. Never mind that if they WERE invincible then VOY would be OVER.

Never mind that as soon as anyone does a Televised story where there are plenty of Redshirts to get killed off, the Borg will be back to their usual invincible selves since now people can be killed without harming main characters.

We didn't want the Borg to have their pants beaten off by the shuttles. That is not the same as "we want them to be invincible. Why do you have such a hard time understanding such a simple idea? I never said they were overused. I thought they were used POORLY, Scorpion aside.

And psst. Don't tell anyone else, Anwar, but I'm not sure a force that gets cubes blasted left and right and needs VOY's help is "invincible".

And SERIOUSLY. Stop accusing us of things WE NEVER SAID.

 

[Anwar]

So how the hell can you call us haters for saying things you agree with?

I don't agree that there were other options for the Kazon and Borg, you disagree and use them as an excuse to bash the writers and the show. THAT is why I can call you haters.

We should do no such thing, since it's completely untrue and patently absurd. If you really feel that the writers of Voyager literally had NO CHOICE but to make the Kazon suck and to make the Borg weak... don't ever try to write a book, dude.

I rewrote the entire series, but I had to change the premise to do it (since the premise held them back too much).

Sure they could. All they had to do is come up with a better story to support it. NO, I'm not going to tell you what it is.

Someone who complains about something without giving any alternatives themselves is nothing more than a whiner.

A) I believe that some of these things (total lack of showing repair/resupply, endless shuttles, etc) were overall problems with Voyager. The show as a whole would have been better if these problems had been addressed.

Whatever the writers did to address whatever problems the audience had would've just been met with scorn. That's how it's always been with VOY.

I guarantee you I wouldn't react the way you do. Guarantee it.

You seriously let what people say on the internet get to you THAT MUCH? You are seriously THIS bothered by the fact that wherever you went, people just RAAAAAAGGGEED about how much Voyager sucked? Why? Putting aside that I have never, EVER seen any evidence to support the notion that there was anywhere NEAR the level of anti-Voyager vitriol that you claim to have "dealt with", WHY does it bother you so much?

Because no one does it to this degree to ANY other Trek show, including Enterprise (hardly anyone had any expectations for it to begin with, more unfairness but that's not the topic at hand). And no one does it to this degree to other shows of a similar nature (NuBSG, Farscape). VOY is pretty much alone in its harassed state, a singled out scapegoat.

Oh come on dude! Seriously?? "Needed a better cast" and "more attentive writers" DOES NOT MEAN that the existing cast and writers completely sucked, all the time, 100%, top to bottom. All it means is that it needed to be better than it was by some unspecified amount.

If someone says a show needed a different cast and writing staff than the one it had, that is a definite implication that the existing cast is subpar and is unworthy of any appreciation. If Withers didn't mean it that way, it's his own fault for not clarifying.

"Needed to be better" does not mean "Completely sucked!"

If Withers ever said anything that even IMPLIED he liked any of the existing writers or actors, I might agree. But he never has, so it's very easy to see his "replacement" comment as an admission of not liking anyone on the show proper.

If they hadn't done the show at all, we wouldn't have gotten great Trek episodes like "Scorpion", "Year of Hell", "Living Witness", "Dragon's Teeth", or "Workforce".

Is THAT what you want? Is that what you would have preferred? For the show to just never have existed at all? Why do you hate Voyager so much, Anwar?

I think it shouldn't have existed because I LIKE the show. I'm beginning to think it shouldn't have existed because it would've been better than the eternal scorn it gets simply because it existed. Those favorite episodes of yours? Nothing but ammunition used to fuel the "the show could've been so much better" argument instead of any "The show had good episodes!" stances. Even the shows strengths are used to tear it all down.

 

[Anwar]

We didn't want the Borg to have their pants beaten off by the shuttles. That is not the same as "we want them to be invincible.

Seeing how all VOY had to throw at the Borg were VOY itsself and shuttles, yeah it pretty much IS the same.

And psst. Don't tell anyone else, Anwar, but I'm not sure a force that gets cubes blasted left and right and needs VOY's help is "invincible".

Which is why Scorpion is seen as the start of the Borg's villain decay. They were shown that they could lose in actual combat with someone and thus were longer invincible and thus ruined.

And Withers, seeing how "one Starfleet crew" was all the protagonists had to throw at the Borg in the first place, what the hell did you expect? HOW were they supposed to be beaten in a manner that DIDN'T involve VOY escaping without anyone dying? HOW was VOY expected to survive, Huh? And don't reply with a "We already told you" type answer.

 

[RyuRoots]

So how the hell can you call us haters for saying things you agree with?

I don't agree that there were other options for the Kazon and Borg, you disagree and use them as an excuse to bash the writers and the show. THAT is why I can call you haters.

We should do no such thing, since it's completely untrue and patently absurd. If you really feel that the writers of Voyager literally had NO CHOICE but to make the Kazon suck and to make the Borg weak... don't ever try to write a book, dude.

I rewrote the entire series, but I had to change the premise to do it (since the premise held them back too much).



Someone who complains about something without giving any alternatives themselves is nothing more than a whiner.



Whatever the writers did to address whatever problems the audience had would've just been met with scorn. That's how it's always been with VOY.



Because no one does it to this degree to ANY other Trek show, including Enterprise (hardly anyone had any expectations for it to begin with, more unfairness but that's not the topic at hand). And no one does it to this degree to other shows of a similar nature (NuBSG, Farscape). VOY is pretty much alone in its harassed state, a singled out scapegoat.




If someone says a show needed a different cast and writing staff than the one it had, that is a definite implication that the existing cast is subpar and is unworthy of any appreciation. If Withers didn't mean it that way, it's his own fault for not clarifying.

"Needed to be better" does not mean "Completely sucked!"

If Withers ever said anything that even IMPLIED he liked any of the existing writers or actors, I might agree. But he never has, so it's very easy to see his "replacement" comment as an admission of not liking anyone on the show proper.

If they hadn't done the show at all, we wouldn't have gotten great Trek episodes like "Scorpion", "Year of Hell", "Living Witness", "Dragon's Teeth", or "Workforce".

Is THAT what you want? Is that what you would have preferred? For the show to just never have existed at all? Why do you hate Voyager so much, Anwar?

I think it shouldn't have existed because I LIKE the show. I'm beginning to think it shouldn't have existed because it would've been better than the eternal scorn it gets simply because it existed. Those favorite episodes of yours? Nothing but ammunition used to fuel the "the show could've been so much better" argument instead of any "The show had good episodes!" stances. Even the shows strengths are used to tear it all down.

Dear god, that wasn't what he was saying you agreed with and you (should) know it. And bashing is "VOYAGER SUCKS". What we're saying is that we think there were specific flaws. They are two different things. Please read other people's posts.

You may have changed the premise because you could work with it better, but it is not a straitjacket. I know you don't understand that either, but that's another thread.

No. Someone has the right to criticize something without comprehensively fixing it. And frankly, you're more of a whiner than anyone else I've seen in the VOY forum, going on about haters who don't exist.

Again with your paranoid silliness and fallacies. This basically translates to "Uh..uh...I don't have an argument...you would've hated it anyway!"

No one does it to that supposed degree to ANY Trek show at all. Believe it or not, some people can simply have grievances with a show. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Damn it, we just went over this. MIDDLE GROUND, Anwar.

Okay, now you're just full of crap. HE DID. On the last freaking page even. This just reinforces that you really don't actually listen to what anyone tells you if it doesn't help fuel your ridiculous paranoid fallacies.

What the hell?! How are those two diametrically opposed?! I think it had good episodes AND it could've been much better!

We didn't want the Borg to have their pants beaten off by the shuttles. That is not the same as "we want them to be invincible.

Seeing how all VOY had to throw at the Borg were VOY itsself and shuttles, yeah it pretty much IS the same.

And psst. Don't tell anyone else, Anwar, but I'm not sure a force that gets cubes blasted left and right and needs VOY's help is "invincible".

Which is why Scorpion is seen as the start of the Borg's villain decay. They were shown that they could lose in actual combat with someone and thus were longer invincible and thus ruined.

And Withers, seeing how "one Starfleet crew" was all the protagonists had to throw at the Borg in the first place, what the hell did you expect? HOW were they supposed to be beaten in a manner that DIDN'T involve VOY escaping without anyone dying? HOW was VOY expected to survive, Huh? And don't reply with a "We already told you" type answer.

Oh my god, you really don't understand even the base CONCEPT of creativity, do you?

And WTF? How is that the start of their decay? Putting aside the fact that they lost a cube in straight combat against a Federation fleet (mainly due to the Ent-E's involvement) in First Contact, I thought the Borg were PLENTY fierce and intimidating in that episode.

But we DID already tell you. Many times. There are many examples of unique thinking in dealing with the Borg, but VOY didn't do much in that regard. I know you'll just parrot back at me "But VOY couldn't do those exact same things", and the answer is "Well, no shit." We wanted them to think uniquely LIKE most Borg stories outside VOY did.

 

[Saito S]

I don't agree that there were other options for the Kazon and Borg, you disagree and use them as an excuse to bash the writers and the show. THAT is why I can call you haters.

AHA!

So you come out and say it. You are calling US haters. We told you repeatedly to stop arguing with the supposed Voyager "hatedom" and argue with US, the people who are posting and replying to you CURRENTLY, instead. But now, you admit that you think that WE are the haters. Withers, RyuRoots, myself, and anyone else who DARES to put forth the notion that Voyager at times had some lousy writing, or that SOME (NOT ALL) of the cast had crappy development, or any other number of complaints.

So we ARE the haters.

You are going to have to defend that point a HELL of a lot better than you did when this came up before. To say nothing of the fact that a mod may very well come in now and tell you that calling people haters is not cool unless you really CAN back it up with concrete reasoning and evidence.

I rewrote the entire series, but I had to change the premise to do it (since the premise held them back too much).

No, you didn't "have" to change the premise. No, the original premise didn't "hold them back too much." You can tell yourself that you "had" to, but that doesn't make it true. Voyager's basic premise was fine. If you didn't LIKE it, that's your right, but it wasn't so impossible to work with as you seem to think it is.

Someone who complains about something without giving any alternatives themselves is nothing more than a whiner.

I don't appreciate being called names.

And for the LAST FUCKING TIME: A person who watches a TV show is entitled to point out flaws in said show and explain what they think the causes of said flaws were, without being obligated to re-write parts of the show themselves to make it better. This is a FACT, no matter how many times you try to say otherwise.

Whatever the writers did to address whatever problems the audience had would've just been met with scorn. That's how it's always been with VOY.

Whatever we say about the show - positive or negative - will be spun by Anwar into "It doesn't matter, you would hate the show no matter what" because he likes to pretend he magically knows the minds of other people better than they do. That's how it's always been with Anwar when it comes to Voyager.

Because no one does it to this degree to ANY other Trek show, including Enterprise (hardly anyone had any expectations for it to begin with, more unfairness but that's not the topic at hand). And no one does it to this degree to other shows of a similar nature (NuBSG, Farscape). VOY is pretty much alone in its harassed state, a singled out scapegoat.

I almost shouldn't even dignify this with a proper response.

Seriously, you want us to believe that YOU - alone - have somehow scoured the depths of the internet to the point where you KNOW that Voyager has its own "hatedom" that loathes everything about it simply for daring to exist. And at the same time, you also KNOW that no other Trek show (no other SHOW, period) has EVER had this level of irrational hatred directed toward it.

You've never provided a SHRED of evidence to support these outlandish claims - despite being asked to do so on more than one occasion. And we're just supposed to take your word for it? No way, dude. It is a MYTH. There IS no Voyager hatedom. Period.

If someone says a show needed a different cast and writing staff than the one it had, that is a definite implication that the existing cast is subpar and is unworthy of any appreciation. If Withers didn't mean it that way, it's his own fault for not clarifying.

Actually, he said "better," not "different" if you want to be precise. Saying the cast or writing staff "Needed to be better" means that it should have been better than it was. It does not inherently convey what the person making the comment thinks of the cast or writing staff, save that it could have been better. The statement established that the person thinks the quality ceiling could have been HIGHER than it was, but does not establish what the person thought the quality floor was. Once the initial statement has been made, we have to let the person who made it clarify if he meant to say "They all sucked". And in this case, Withers HAS clarified that "They all sucked" was NOT, in fact, what he meant.

Again, no matter how many times you try to say otherwise, the above is fact.

If Withers ever said anything that even IMPLIED he liked any of the existing writers or actors, I might agree. But he never has, so it's very easy to see his "replacement" comment as an admission of not liking anyone on the show proper.

BUT HE DID. As RyuRoots pointed out, he JUST did! IN THIS THREAD! So you really DON'T read our posts!

I think it shouldn't have existed because I LIKE the show. I'm beginning to think it shouldn't have existed because it would've been better than the eternal scorn it gets simply because it existed. Those favorite episodes of yours? Nothing but ammunition used to fuel the "the show could've been so much better" argument instead of any "The show had good episodes!" stances. Even the shows strengths are used to tear it all down.

This basically amounts to you telling me that - despite my belief that I like Voyager, despite my problems with it - I secretly LOATHE it, through and through. I just haven't realized it yet.

That is a MASSIVE stretch. It's also insulting. It's also complete bull.

Which is why Scorpion is seen as the start of the Borg's villain decay. They were shown that they could lose in actual combat with someone and thus were longer invincible and thus ruined.

What? "Scorpion" is held up by MANY fans as a great episode. I've never seen ANYONE say that the "Borg decay" started there. It started in later eps. No one thinks that "Scorpion" ruined the Borg.

And Withers, seeing how "one Starfleet crew" was all the protagonists had to throw at the Borg in the first place, what the hell did you expect? HOW were they supposed to be beaten in a manner that DIDN'T involve VOY escaping without anyone dying? HOW was VOY expected to survive, Huh? And don't reply with a "We already told you" type answer.

Why shouldn't we reply with "We already told you"? After all, we HAVE explained our positions on this (and other) points, multiple times each, across several threads, in a series of very long posts. Frankly, I think we've earned the right to say "Dude, we already explained this". Not our fault you've been ignoring half of what we've said.

 

[Anwar]

Saying that the writers created lame villains is the same as bashing. It's not as direct as "Voyager sucks!", in fact it's actually worse because you're making specific allegations against the writers instead of just moronically bashing the whole show. It's still bashing to insult the writers like that.

If you think you have the right to complain about something without giving anything else to justify yourself, then I think I have the right to call you on just insulting the show like that without bothering to justify your position with your own ideas.

My argument IS that, no matter WHAT was done, it still would've been hated. It's why I'm starting to think VOY was better off not existing since that's the ONLY thing it could do that the audience WOULDN'T hate.

Again, Withers' own fault for not clarifying. Without that, his post simply comes off as dislike for the entire cast and writing staff.

You say the show "could have been so much better" and then use those "good episodes" as examples of how. Instead of "The show had good episodes" and simply, politely, leaving it at that you twist VOY's good work around into "These are the only episodes with any REAL good in them" so that the rest of the series simply looks worse by comparison. VOY's own good writing is perverted into ammunition against it.

I understand that it's no good when there's nothing to be creative WITH.

Scorpion showed the Borg in large number being defeated in normal combat instead of FC's Single Cube being defeated after wiping out a large chunk of the good guys, which shows they could be defeated in such larger numbers and thus they were no longer the "One Cube is nigh-invulnerable" villain they were before. Thus was the start of the chain reaction of their decay since we now knew they could lose on such a scale.

"Think Uniquely" doesn't work when there's nothing to think uniquely with.

 

[Withers]

Why shouldn't we reply with "We already told you"? After all, we HAVE explained our positions on this (and other) points, multiple times each, across several threads, in a series of very long posts. Frankly, I think we've earned the right to say "Dude, we already explained this". Not our fault you've been ignoring half of what we've said.

This. Across five threads we've gone over the same issues over and over again. Things have been explained in explicit detail so many times only someone who choose not to understand wouldn't. It's a complete waste of my time to manufacture post after post, filled with explanation and reasoning, if such posts are going to be disregarded as soon as they're one page back which is the kind of debate Anwar excels at; out of sight, out of mind.

For my final post in this thread I'll say this; I expected the Borg to be in Voyager. I think pretty much everybody did. I thought the way they were utilized was poor and I think there were dozens of other ways their execution could have been improved upon. I didn't hate every Borg episode and I certainly didn't go out of my way to find detractors in every Borg episode. Those were presented on silver platters without my ever having to do very much.


If any further clarification is required on any of those points see my previous posts as I am sure they have been covered in great detail at this point.

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

Withers, RyuRoots, myself, and anyone else who DARES to put forth the notion that Voyager at times had some lousy writing, or that SOME (NOT ALL) of the cast had crappy development, or any other number of complaints.

You saying you all want to officially be in the Hatedom, it's your choice.

And it's more on the lines of "Lousy writing all the time" and "Most of the cast had crappy development".

No, you didn't "have" to change the premise.

I couldn't get around the "No outside support" stuff I needed to make the story work without it. Plus I didn't have the UPN restrictions on Arcs and stuff.

And for the LAST FUCKING TIME: A person who watches a TV show is entitled to point out flaws in said show and explain what they think the causes of said flaws were, without being obligated to re-write parts of the show themselves to make it better. This is a FACT, no matter how many times you try to say otherwise.

A person who watched a TV show is entitled to be called a whiner if they point out flaws in said show without bothering to do anything to show it could be done better.

THAT is a fact.

Whatever we say about the show - positive or negative - will be spun by Anwar into "It doesn't matter, you would hate the show no matter what"

Yep. Though the VOY hate didn't grow to the volcanic level it's been at for the last few years until NuBSG came on and Moore made it okay to despise VOY for not being generic dark trash.

Actually, he said "better," not "different" if you want to be precise.

"Better" openly suggests that what was actually there on VOY was the opposite of better, ie "Worse".

Saying the cast or writing staff "Needed to be better" means that it should have been better than it was.

And that what was there, wasn't good in the first place?

Once the initial statement has been made, we have to let the person who made it clarify if he meant to say "They all sucked". And in this case, Withers HAS clarified that "They all sucked" was NOT, in fact, what he meant.

He didn't do it very well, then.

What? "Scorpion" is held up by MANY fans as a great episode. I've never seen ANYONE say that the "Borg decay" started there. It started in later eps. No one thinks that "Scorpion" ruined the Borg.

It showed them as beatable on a larger scale, and that it could be done with pure force and not plot contrivances or "creativity". With those elements in the mix, the decay was now inevitable.

 

[Akiraprise]

Here's another fact: There are going to be multiple warnings coming down as soon as I reread this mess of a thread.

Some advice for everyone: Take a chill pill. Damn...

 

[Akiraprise]

God what a chore it was to read through this entire thread. It literally gave me a headache. So much nastiness and circular arguing. Here are a few of the low points I've picked out.

That's not "better drama", it's just stupidity. We should know better than to listen to Navaros by now.

Flaming

(the hatedom grew in power while the show was on, until it was strong enough to finally get a show canceled in the form of ENT)

And yes, you got it perfectly. It didn't matter WHAT they did in terms of how the show was done, nothing would ever appease the hatedom.

Ah yes, the ever popular hatedom. All those who criticize VOY always seem to get lumped into the hatedom. I am tired of seeing this. Knock it off. Quit calling all those who post constructive criticism of the show haters. It's not true and it's trolling.

I consider myself a Trek fan.

Well, you're wrong.

Well, there's some trolling. Who are you to tell him he's not a Trek fan?

Then how come the Cybermen can pull off having their own Hive leaders?

Okay, you obviously still don't have this "reading comprehension" thing down like I mentioned elsewhere. I'll try to speak slowly and in small words.
That. is. something. completely. different.

This is trolling/flaming, whatever. Not called for.

*facepalm* You don't get it. He's pointing out that this is the level of fallacy you are making. He's not saying he believes that. PLEASE ACTUALLY READ OTHER PEOPLE'S POSTS.

Christ, you'd make a Vulcan's head implode if you tried to talk to him.

You need to SETTLE DOWN.

And your posts IMPLY you're a paranoid lunatic.

Again. Reading comprehension, buddy. It'll really help you in life.

More trolling/flaming. Word of advise for the future; if you think somebody is being intentionally obtuse NOTIFY the MOD. We'll look at it and if a response is deemed necessary we will act accordingly. Don't respond with flames or trolls.

THAT is why I can call you haters.
Someone who complains about something without giving any alternatives themselves is nothing more than a whiner.

Flaming / Trolling.

And frankly, you're more of a whiner than anyone else I've seen in the VOY forum, going on about haters who don't exist.

Again with your paranoid silliness and fallacies.

Okay, now you're just full of crap. HE DID. On the last freaking page even. This just reinforces that you really don't actually listen to what anyone tells you if it doesn't help fuel your ridiculous paranoid fallacies.

Flaming

Saying that the writers created lame villains is the same as bashing. It's not as direct as "Voyager sucks!", in fact it's actually worse because you're making specific allegations against the writers instead of just moronically bashing the whole show. It's still bashing to insult the writers like that.

No it's not.

A person who watched a TV show is entitled to be called a whiner if they point out flaws in said show without bothering to do anything to show it could be done better.

THAT is a fact.

No, they are not entitled to be called a whiner.


So after all of this I am giving the following infractions:
One trolling infraction to Anwar.
One flaming infraction to RyuRoots.

One general admonishment to everyone else involved in the argument to settle down and notify the mod if something seems out of line. This is all I have to say on the matter and the thread can remain closed as it has gone so far off topic now anyway.