I thought Seven more interesting in Picard too.
Voyager - right show at the wrong time?
- Thread starter Nyotarules
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I agree it can't have been easy for the writers writing under all those constraints.
Even so, I can remember much of the same type of criticism being leveled on DS9. How could this be Star Trek without even a ship to explore? Sit in space and wait till aliens from the GC discover them? Wouldn't it get boring very quickly? And they were hemmed in by TNG much the same way - for example they were forbidden from using the Borg, if I recall correctly.
Even so, that became a marvelous show (ok, it 'cheated' a bit, certainly when they got the Defiant, but still).
So I still think it could have been pulled off for Voyager. I think one of the largest problems was that they abandoned their premise too easily (ship always in pristine condition - almost no tensions between Maquis and Starfleet beyond a few traitors and Seska). And in the first 2,3 years they still tried to create their own somewhat alien 'feel' but I have the impression they basically gave up on that around the time Kes left and Seven was brought aboard (even though by that time, roles such as those of the EMH were well established).
With that all, I still like Voyager for what it is.
Sure, but again, by all reporting, that was a limitation of the studio's minimal serialization rule. I'm not sure it would have done much good to have had significant ongoing tension without serialization.
And sure, the ship and uniforms and such could have been a bit more worn-looking even without consistent serialization, but again, if things were too rough, one would have to wonder why they didn't get settle down on a nice tropical beach somewhere.
And yeah, DS9 lasted all of two seasons before giving themselves a proper starship (in addition to the runabouts they had from the start), and they were allowed much more serialization than VOY. It was what it was.
I agree, it was a tight rope they had to walk. 7 years of unrelenting 'year of hell' -level misery would have worn me out as viewer, too. Even though that might have been more realistic.
Hell, I'd have voted to settle down on an M-Class planet with friendly natives pretty much from the start. An uncharted 70-year journey to get home, with an unknown part of that being Borg space, facing frequent mortal peril along the way? No, thanks! Once the female Caretaker turned out to be a dud, logic would have recommended that they quietly retire somewhere before someone with a bad attitude blows them up for good.
Once the female Caretaker turned out to be a dud, logic would have recommended that they quietly retire somewhere before someone with a bad attitude blows them up for good.
Hmmm.... come to think of it, Cold Fire was only 9 weeks (episodes) after The 37's. They could simply have turned around at that point and join them after all. Well, slightly longer perhaps, to avoid that Persistence of Vision region.
Voyager is just such an interesting scenario because it has a great concept, a built in reason for conflict but so much of it is tied to UPN and being it's flagship series. There was so much scrutiny on it. And I don't know even if the people in charge of making it didn't get what they wanted. Like if Ira Behr was in charge you would expect there to be a lot more character development and exploration of themes, but were Jeri Taylor and Brannon Braga concerned with that? Michael Piller came back in Season 2 and tried to develop it more with the Michael Jonas arc and addition of stuff like Hogan, but once Piller was done, all of that was binned by his successors. I don't think Voyager lived up to it's premise but I also don't feel like the producers ever had any intention of really delivering on it.
It has the worst ending in the history of onscreen science fiction.
The one / two punch of LOST and BSG both botching their landings really hit hard. "It's all about the characters"... right... so you didn't plan your mythology in advance and need a literal deus ex machina to wrap it up?
Much worse than just that, the entire surviving population wouldn’t’ve unanimously agreed to destroy all their technology and records of their culture the very moment one man lost his mind and suggested it. It’s absolute nonsense.
Yeah I did a BSG rewatch in 2020. At first I was like, wow, I forgot the show was this good... then the tumble down the hill grows into an avalanche. It's on the level of GAME OF THRONES S8.
I know it gets a bad wrap, but at least ENT had a strong closing season, with TATV a conveniently forgettable epilogue from an unreliable narrator. Whereas I've never rewatched VGR S7 since it aired. "Endgame" was just a frustrating "well I guess the calendar says we have to end it now" exercise.
The Star Trek franchise for me has always been something that's greater than the sum of its parts thanks to the built up lore and continuity. While VGR does have some excellent stand alone episodes, the series is unfortunately much less than the sum of its parts.
Sure, it might play better now with the much lower lows of Kurtzman Trek in recent view, but VGR for me ultimately comes down to squashed potential.
That said, bring on the HD remaster already!
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Hell, I'd have voted to settle down on an M-Class planet with friendly natives pretty much from the start. An uncharted 70-year journey to get home, with an unknown part of that being Borg space, facing frequent mortal peril along the way? No, thanks! Once the female Caretaker turned out to be a dud, logic would have recommended that they quietly retire somewhere before someone with a bad attitude blows them up for good.
This.
The inherent problem with VOY was the same problem that Gilligan's Island had, although to a far lesser extent because the latter show was a sitcom: No matter what plan the castaways came up with to get off the island, the audience knew they were going to fail, because then the show would be over. So the whole 'we need to get back to Earth' thing should have lasted exactly one season before the crew realized that this was futile, because:
1. They were the only Federation starship around and had tech nobody else had.
2. They were in a hostile and unknown area of space.
3. Who knows how long their fuel, supplies, weapons, etc. would last? Not to mention food and water.
Now, in my opinion, what should have logically happened was that the crew settle any Starfleet/Maquis differences, then find a planet with resources for their base, and start trying to cultivate relationships with the local alien races. You know...to form a 'federation' of their own. Because the alternative was just to fly around unknown space hoping to find a way home, never succeeding in that endeavor, getting the shit blown out of them by hostile aliens and then having the ship back in pristine condition by the next episode, using tons of power to run holodeck programs that they logically should not have been using that power for, having the paper-thin excuse for Neelix's services as cook when they could just replicate their food just like all the times they used the holodeck, lose a million shuttles and torpedoes and still have plenty more, wearing the same uniforms that either miraculously never got dirty or get washed all the time because they have the resources to spare despite their situation, etc. etc. etc. Lots of suspension of disbelief there, but that's what we ended up getting.
Maybe getting thrown an estimated 70 years' worth of journey home, though certainly an attention-grabber, was too far. Maybe they should have been thrown about 20 or 30 years from Federation space - a lot, to be sure, and a major chunk of their lives, but not so long that many of them might plausibly die of natural causes before getting back.
I can agree on that.
Personally I think that the whole "the journey home could take many, many years" could work if those in charge really went for it. but they didn't.
OK, like with the events in the episodes Eye of The Needle and False Profits, we all knew that the attempt to return home would fail because if not the series would end. But so what, we all know that Picard's crew will survive the encounter with the Borg and that Sisko's crew will take back the station after the Cardassians and the Dominon took over it because otherwise those series would be over too.
What could have been done is of course more realistic storytelling.
I totally agree with comments about shuttles, torpedoes and the ship looking exactly as new after almost being shot to pieces in the previous episode. That was simply bad storytelling and it damaged the credibility of the show.
If you come up with a scenario in which the ship only has a limited supply of torpedoes and shuttles, then stick with it and avoid waste or destruction of such objects in the stories. If that's impossible, then come up with an explanation why Voyager still have shuttles and torpedoes, like my personal invention of a special Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team on the ship.
The same with the scenario when the ship is almost shot to pieces and as good as new in the next episodes. Either avoid such scenarios or come up with som eepisodes where the ship is somewhat damaged and we can see repair teams here and there.
But I guess that Braga and Fuller just had to have their beloved explosions and action scenes..........
I would also have made some other changes already from the start.
I would have given Kes a human lifespan since that stupid nine-year lifespan crap messed up a lot of things, either given to her by Q for some reason or simply state that the Ocampa planet has a 10-year orbit around its sun.
I would also have broken up the Kes-Neelix relationship much earlier, most likely in season 2 and then with a more realistic scenario, taken place during two or three episodes. Not the silly break-up we saw in the otherwise great episode Warlord.
And of course, Kes would have stayed on the ship, even if Seven was added. That would have excluded the two worst episodes in the series.
I wouldn't have gone for an ongoing conflict between Starfleet and Maquis on the ship, such bickering ruined Stargate Universe.
But I would have given B'Elanna Torres four or five episodes before changing from an angry rebel to a loyal Starfleet Office. Parallax is a great episode but the events in it shouldn't have happened already in the second episode.
I would also have had all the Kazon episodes in season 2 conected to a lengthy stay for Voyager at The 37's Planet while they were helping the habitants on that planet to build a good defence and also given them the opportunity to create a "new Federation" in the Delta Quadrant. By doing so, we could have had this little discussion about staying on that planet or trying to go home.
Such stops on different worlds and in different areas could have been happening in later seasons too.
I would also have had less Borg and instead a journey home through the Gamma Quadrant, maybe an encounter with the Dominion and being involved with possible conflicts in the Gamma Quadrant in the aftermath of the Dominion-Federation war.
And no episode like Message In A Bottle! That episode ruined the whole concept for the show which was supposed to be about a lost ship with no contact at all with Federation Headquarters.
Never understood why the Maquis being in conflict means "constant bickering." If you have limited resources then there can be the occasion for disagreement, conflict and dare I say, drama, in this dramatic presentation.
Nor would I expect it to be constant. I just would expect a period of adjustment for people who *checks his notes* were being hunted by people they're now stuck with.
Like the shuttles and torpedoes you have great opportunities to explore a lot of different ideas of problem solving, building trust and mutual cooperation.
Nor would I expect it to be constant. I just would expect a period of adjustment for people who *checks his notes* were being hunted by people they're now stuck with.
Like the shuttles and torpedoes you have great opportunities to explore a lot of different ideas of problem solving, building trust and mutual cooperation.
Because it would be a risk that it would turn into what Stargate Universe was.
Not to mention that we actually had characters like Seska, Suder and Jonas who created some "conflict and drama" Even Hogan and Jarvin showed some dissatisfaction with Janeway's rule and being forced into Starfleet and there was someone named Jackson who helped Seska to steal mushrooms from Neelix galley.
But I can agree that a short time of adjustment could have been appropriate.
As for the shuttle and torpedo scenario, this is how it should have been handled:
Stardate 48942.07 (Friday 10 December 2371)
Captain's Log:
The latest events have put us in a difficult situation since we have wasted a lot of torpedoes and damaged a shuttle. Therefore I have asked Commander Chakotay, Liutenant Tuvok and Lieutenant Torres to come to my ready room to discuss an idea I have.
"You all know what has happened" said Janeway. "After the recent adventure with the Furies (Voyager book "The Final Fury" which took place between the episodes "Elogium" and "Twisted"), we have lost a shuttle. We have also wasted too many torpedoes. If we keep on wasting our torpedoes in the same way, we will be out of them soon. Considering our long journey and the risk of running into hostile aliens, we need both shuttles and torpedoes. Therefore I want to discuss this idea I have."
"What would that be?" Chakotay asked.
"I suggest that we set up a special workforce on the ship" Janeway said. "The Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team". "Some really skilled people who can have as their priority to build shuttles and torpedoes when it's necessary. If we do so, we will have a chance to avoid being without those in a critical situation."
"That sounds like a good idea", Chakotay said.
"Indeed. And a very logical idea too considering our need for such items" Tuvok said.
"Exactly my thoughts too", said Janeway. "B'Elanna, do you have any people to spare?"
"Well, I think that Dalby, Henley, Gerron and Chell would be perfect for the job. And I would also like to have Lt. Carey in charge of the team. He's the right person for that. If necessary, I can give a helping hand too in a crisis. But I must point out that I need these people in Engineering too and that they would only work with shuttles and torpedoes when necessary."
"I agree", Janeway said. "I would also suggest that we find some other people too among the crew who can assist with shuttle and torpedo building when necessary". Janeway touched her combadge: "Mr Carey, can you come to my ready room immediately!"
And so The Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team was born. From the beginning, it was Lt.Carey, Dalby, Henley, Gerron and Chell. Later on Rollins, Vorik, Samantha Wildman and The Borg baby were added to the team. In fact, those people are the true heroes on Voyager. Without their hard work, Voyager's mission would have been almost impossible.
That's always a risk but not a guarantee of an outcome. I wouldn't be advocating for constant bickering but acknowledging of differences not just everyone in uniform and hunky dory.
I agree with your point. There were actually characters on the ship who could have been used better when it comes to this, like Hogan and jarvin for example.
However, too much bickering can bring down any series. Unfortunately, some of the newere series (not only Star Trek or SF in common) have too much of it, there is more focus on the individual problems of certain characters than good storytelling and excitement.
If they wanted that, then they should've made the "other crew" be a bunch of Delta Quadrant Aliens being held on the Array that go with Voyager. It would also be a easy way to explain the Delta Quadrant and focus on the aliens internally since natives were now part of the cast.
A better show?
