You know I was joking, yeah?
Voyager Rewatch
- Thread starter Trekker4747
- Start date
You know I was joking, yeah?
Well, I'm here. Time to watch Endgame.
Just watched Blink of an Eye when it was re-running on local TV. That was great. My only gripe was that they never really hammered down the time-time conversion; or if they did they weren't that good at showing it properly (1 second = 1 day or so; 20 minutes = 3 years. 1200 seconds in 20 minutes, 1200 days around 3.2 years, then six weeks in a few seconds when it should be almost a minute at the end - but that's nitpicking at best).
But nevertheless it was neat. VOY doesn't solve all the problems - leaves it in the hands of the natives who seem they'll get it - and seeing a civilization arise around Voyager was interesting.
But nevertheless it was neat. VOY doesn't solve all the problems - leaves it in the hands of the natives who seem they'll get it - and seeing a civilization arise around Voyager was interesting.
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Blink of an Eye is one of those Voyager episodes that just stand out. It's very well done and it is interesting to see the rise of an entire civilization over centuries all viewing Voyager as a deity.
Although I much prefer DS9 1 thing I've noticed on rewatch is that VOY had a much better imagination when it came to designing a strange new quadrant. 3 seasons into DS9 and I felt we had hardly seen anything truly wierd and wonderful from the Gamma
The kazon were a poor choice as early enemy and basically just crap klingons. The Vidians were a much scarier, more intersting and unique advisary
Someone mentioned skipping some episodes. I would try going to IMDb. It's not perfect, but the ratings go up to 10 and include decimals like 7.1. Better than Star ratings. For me, as long as they are above 7 they're usually worth watching.
You shoud finish the sentence.... "that could act, and one that could support more complex stories and scenes."
I'm tired of this debate. "Kes" was a non-starter. She, like Neelix held an important position in the ensemble (one of the alien races) yet she couldn't deliver anything but supporting stories and scenes. Every top Star Trek character from each series brought complex internal conflict to their ensembles... Spock, Worf, Data, Odo, Seven, Kira, The Doctor, and so on. Voyager didn't have enough of that, so out went Kes, in came Seven. It didn't hurt that she was also more attractive.
Maybe Kes should have been kept on in a supporting role; that's what the character should have been in the first place.
Let's all get over it.
Non-Starter: A person, plan, or idea that has no chance of succeeding or being effective.
The Kazon were terrible characters. Putting them in the same sentence with "Klingons" would probably drive a Klingon into a killing rage. The whole Kazon/Seska storyline and the Kazon in general helped get Voyager off to a rough start.
The Vidians were interesting, but thankfully not overused. They kinda made no sense... with their level of technology they should have been abe to clone healthy replacement organs from the unaffected Vidians, clone organs they stole from other species, or create synthetic replacements rather than roaming the galaxy endlessly to "harvest" organs.
She could act and support stronger stories but, be real, that's not why they put her in there. And for them "stronger stories" meant "The Borg."
Seven was a good addition and made the series more interesting but let's not ignore why she was put in there. Her costume says it all.
You are probably right about her initial purpose but she did end up being one of Voyagers best characters and most enduring in the long run.
They never seemed able to grow Kes beyond tag along spouse to a guy who became obsolete as soon as they passed his area of space which was also another hole 7 filled
Her "costume" says part of it. The series lacked a "standout" Spock, Worf, or Data character for the other characters to play off of. TOS without Spock, TNG without Data and Worf, the entirety of DS9 without the internal conflict of many of the major characters... would have been much different very boring shows. I can't even fathom TNG without Data and Worf.
One way or another someone was getting the boot to bring in a stronger character, because that was crucial to the success of the show. Only B'Elanna and the Doctor had the complexity and internal conflict they could exploit, but B'Elanna wasn't that interesting or at all likable and they got as much out of the doctor as they could..
That body in that painted-on suit was just the proverbial cherry on top, but all kinds of bad shows with scantily clad women get canceled every day. Jolene Blalok looked as good, some say better, and that show didn't have the ensemble it needed.
So, to paraphrase the great Vincent La Guardia Gambini, your theory doesn't hold water.
I really feel they wasted half the crew by almost completly forgetting about some of them being Maquis so soon.
I don't think the studio or the producers thought they could fix the ensemble with Jeri Ryan's tits. Seven came into the series with a purpose and a storyline. Unlike Kes, nothing about the character seemed forced or the result of an afterthought to make her interesting. The point was to introduce a major character that the writers could write for, instead of struggling to find things to write about.
I'm sorry but this entire endless argument makes no sense. The writers complained on record that the human characters and (especially) Kes... were hard to write for.
How does Jeri Ryan's tits solve this?
"Hey,
There was no more conflict after the first few seasons... dragging that maquis crap out indefinitely? For what?
This show suffered, especially in it's first 3 seasons for three reasons. No one likes to see a strong and independent and forceful female in a leadership position, neither the human nor the alien characters had anything special about them to drive interesting character-based stories, and some of the characters that shoud have been forerunners were either boring and/or badly played by mediocre actors.
Tuvok: Tim Russ did a great job playing this character. The character is a good one, but he's "just" a Vulcan. He isn't a half-Vulcan, "struggling to master his emotions while understanding his humanity"... There's ony so much you can do with character-based Tuvok stories. There are a few that excel, but you're not going to get many unique character-based story ideas or scenes with a plain vanilla Vulcan.
Neelix: The character could have been so much more... He lacked chemistry and believability almost always. The character was a never-before seen race, and he coud have been a character. He should have been a better comedic foil for Tuvok, funnier in his cooking exploits, interesting in his past as a trader, better in scenes with the crew. But the actor played him as obnoxious as he himself is, and again had zero chemistry in his scenes.
Kes: A non-starter from day one. Let's put her in sickbay. Big deal. Let's give her telepathy. Big deal. Let's put her in endless scenes where she wimpers and cries. Big deal. Let's separate her from Neelix. Who cares? Neelix has Zero chemistry with her anyway.
B'Elanna: Constantly angry and hateful (Worf was likably grumpy).... the actress just coudn't make the character likable. Se had the potential to be interesting because of her struggle to manage her past and heritage, but the character came off as self-loathing and angry, and when she was in the forefront, you just didn't care. You have to like the character.
Chakotay, Harry, and Tom: Star Trek is driven by it's alien characters. The humans are just humans, and with them there are only so many character-driven stories you can do. For all intent and purpose in a story line or scene, they are pretty much interchangable. In "Time and Again" Janeway was in the planet's recent past with... it could have been anyone. These characters are no different in quality than Riker, Chekov, Sulu, O'Brien, Uhura or whatever, and in fact were better than some of these. But they are plain vanilla characters that need to work off the aliens.
The Doctor: Voyager's only original stand out "alien" character, and they originally confined him to a single room. He became the standout character because he's interesting. A hologram originally meant to assist the ship's doctor in times of need, he becomes a crucial full time part of the crew and his artificial intelligence develops into sentience. He develops a personalty, interests, and an ego, and relationships with the rest of the crew.
Too much reliance on the plain vanilla characters because the aliens that should have been showrunners weren't that good.
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It doesnt have to be conflict but they could have just had a different way of doing things. It would have been nice to explore the workings of the non starfleet crew a bit like DS9 or PIC and we also could have got more back story as to why they were Maquis.
All I can remember back story wise is Paris had daddy issues
It doesn't have to be, but it is the formula. Stories like you suggest aren't bad per se, but are they really going to drive a series for seven seasons?
The fans connected with Spock because of the struggle with his duality. When TNG came around, they used the exact same formula for Data, except they flipped the details. The Worf character grew because of his duality; a Klingon who was a Star Fleet officer, but still a Klingon. Even Sisko, a Starfleet officer yet somehow the reluctant emissary of the Bajoran Prophets. And, Seven of Nine, a Borg who struggles to regain her individuaity and humanity, and the Doctor, "just" a hologram that becomes sentient and proves he's much more. Duality makes the characters more interesting and complex.
The writers connect better with these characters because they're easier to write for. You can beam a Borg Viniculum aboard the ship and have Seven adopt the personalities of assimilated life forms. But you're going nowhere with endless stories about a plain vanilla character's family issues. Those details have a place... buried in secondary plot lines.
To see how important this concept is, you only need examine Tuvok. He grew to be one of my favoite Voyager crew members. When I mentioned this a few months ago, someone was surprised because he found the character "uninteresting". I told him that I liked the character because Tim Russ played him perfectly. He was the right actor for the part, he had chemistry with other crew members, and he played a Vulcan the way I think a Vulcan should be played. But he is just a plain vanilla Vulcan. He's logical, unemotional, and that just doesn't stand out for 23 shows a year over 7 years. Now, if Tuvok was half-Vulcan and half-Klingon...
Im no expecting it to drive the series or even be a focal point I just think wooden characters like Chakotay could have done with bit more of the rogue to them a bit more of a Han Solo swagger. In fact all through Trek with the exception of Ro Laren the Maquis have been the most robotic dispassionate characters on the show.
When I look back on VOY the 3 that stick out are 7, EMH and Tuvok as the only ones I an remember as having interesting stories or episodes
The thing is... I don't think the Chakotay character was wooden at all. I think some critic said that and it got repeated enough times by the fan bois. I watched TNG for years, and didn't know I was supposed to hate Wesley Crusher until I tried to enjoy Star Trek on the internet.
Chakotay wasn't "wooden" when he went up against Janeway in "Equinox", or when he punched that Maquis in the face in "Learning Curve". He excelled in "Memorial", and "Nemesis" and in numerous other episodes, including two of my favorites, "Shattered" and "Timeless".
See, It think Chakotay is no better or worse than most ST characters. Was Riker a better character? No, I don't think so. A different character, but no more or less interesting. Sulu? Chekov? Miles O'Brien? No.
Voyager was initially saddled with an ensemble that didn't work. A good ensemble is supposed to be greater than the sum of it's parts and clearly, Voyager's wasn't. The Kes character was a non-starter. Neelix should have been a fun and interesting character, but he had no chemistry, was poorly interpreted, and was played very obnoxious. Tuvok was well played, but as a plain vanilla Vulcan, there was really nowhere for him to go. B'Elanna was perpetually angry, hostile, and self-loathing. The character was unlikable. So Chakotay, Tom, and Harry had no characters to play off of.
Again, image TNG without Data and Worf. It wouldn't have worked. Replace Worf with a human character, and get rid of Data completely, and believe me... The deficiencies in the lesser characters would have been screaming loud. Geordi's visor isn't going to carry stories and scenes for 7 years.
Replace Spock with a human character, and we wouldn't even be talking about Star Trek 50 years later.
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