Just more interested in exploring the universe than reading about people in bed together. If I want the latter, I'll just watch Glee with my daughter.
I'm not here saying its the wrong path for Voyager, it's just the wrong path for me.
Spoilers VOY: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread
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Just more interested in exploring the universe than reading about people in bed together. If I want the latter, I'll just watch Glee with my daughter.
I'm not here saying its the wrong path for Voyager, it's just the wrong path for me.
I personally could not be happier with a Star Trek book or return of a character. I loved this.
Well, frankly it bores the crap out of me. But I've never been a romance person. The only romance in the books I liked they split up (Ezri and Julian). But I think the babies are even worse than the weirdly teenage romances they write for starfleet officers.
I didn't mind the resurrection. It was done well(tm) I'd say.
Starfleet really has to be banging their heads against the wall about losing all those ships, especially after the Azura Nebula incident. Two Vesta-class ships gone. Yikes. To me, that felt more contrived (setting Voyager 'alone' in the Delta Quadrant again) than returning Janeway back, for some reason.
Starfleet really has to be banging their heads against the wall about losing all those ships, especially after the Azura Nebula incident. Two Vesta-class ships gone. Yikes. To me, that felt more contrived (setting Voyager 'alone' in the Delta Quadrant again) than returning Janeway back, for some reason.
Somehow, I was always a bit worried about the fate of Esquiline and Quirinal from the start of the series. After all, both are much more powerful and larger than Voyager, yet the latter is the focus of our story. Sending them out on their own missions was a nice way to keep them from overshadowing Voyager though, so I'd be interested in knowing why it was decided to write them out of the story at this point.
Just started the book yesterday. Looks like Kirsten has another winner on her hands
Maybe just maybe the best line in the entire book!
Voted for "average" - it is weaker than "Children of the Storm" perhaps due to the multiple plotthreads that come together only in the last section.
Eden's story didn't do much for me - I empathized more with her two uncles, especially the one that couldn't destroy his shuttle, knowing that his husband was still on it in "normal" space. At least that's my interpretation of his hesitancy.
I've never cared much for Q. While the premise of a meeting between Amanda and Junior was promising, the whole resurrection of Janeway, her role in the multiverse etc just seemed a bit over-the-top. And quite frankly, my eyes glazed a bit over during the technobabble-bits.
The future of the fleet remains to be seen. I for one am glad that Demeter's still out there, because I really liked O'Donnell (superb scene with him and Barclay *g*). Granted, the 4 ships are gone, but at least the more interesting characters that were so painstakingly introduced in CotS are still there. Perhaps they'll return with a new ship (and Achilles).
I'm ambivalent about Janeway's return. Honestly, the way VOY devolved into Janeway and her bunch of misfits during the second half of the series's run made me cheer at her death. Perhaps then the other characters would finally be more in the spotlight - especially Chakotay whose interaction with Janeway I really enjoyed up to Scorpion (and I thought it stupid that Janeway didn't pursue a relationship with him after Resolutions). Beyer managed to correct that in the last 4 books - I hope he'll remain "his own man" and not return to his puppet status. Their scenes together were well done, I liked the emotions portrayed on both sides. Let's see what happens next.
Little tidbits I liked:
Cambridge - he's the only new character that's continuously shown, and he just works, be it with Seven, be it with Chakotay - and I'm looking forward to his sessions with Janeway (there better be some of those!)
Chakotay-Seven - they had really nice scenes together. I always thought that C/7-pairing stupid, and given Chakotay's experiences with the Borg (Riley) I'd have wished for a stronger involvement of his in Seven's development. But I enjoy the friendship they have now.
Riley/the Caeliar - returning to the cooperative was an interesting move. Given that VOY picked up quite a few drones that were lost to the collective who knows what the Caeliar left in the D-quadrant for VOY to find. It's an interesting premise to think that they not only changed the nanites within drones but also the whole Borg technology on planets. I think there are still quite a few interesting stories there.
Kes - hopefully, VOY'll visit Ocampa in the near-future. With the slipstream that shouldn't be a problem.
Right now, VOY's the only 24th-century series I'm really looking forward to (given what I said at the beginning about TV-VOY I'd never have thought to actually write this). Dynamics are bound to change again, and I really hope that it's not just back to business as usual for Janeway. I want to see her struggle with everything that happened, I want to see her evolve beyond that struggle and recover her equilibrium. And I'd really love to see her interact with Tuvok (actually, the only character I really miss right now given that Icheb's back onboard VOY).
Eden's story didn't do much for me - I empathized more with her two uncles, especially the one that couldn't destroy his shuttle, knowing that his husband was still on it in "normal" space. At least that's my interpretation of his hesitancy.
I've never cared much for Q. While the premise of a meeting between Amanda and Junior was promising, the whole resurrection of Janeway, her role in the multiverse etc just seemed a bit over-the-top. And quite frankly, my eyes glazed a bit over during the technobabble-bits.
The future of the fleet remains to be seen. I for one am glad that Demeter's still out there, because I really liked O'Donnell (superb scene with him and Barclay *g*). Granted, the 4 ships are gone, but at least the more interesting characters that were so painstakingly introduced in CotS are still there. Perhaps they'll return with a new ship (and Achilles).
I'm ambivalent about Janeway's return. Honestly, the way VOY devolved into Janeway and her bunch of misfits during the second half of the series's run made me cheer at her death. Perhaps then the other characters would finally be more in the spotlight - especially Chakotay whose interaction with Janeway I really enjoyed up to Scorpion (and I thought it stupid that Janeway didn't pursue a relationship with him after Resolutions). Beyer managed to correct that in the last 4 books - I hope he'll remain "his own man" and not return to his puppet status. Their scenes together were well done, I liked the emotions portrayed on both sides. Let's see what happens next.
Little tidbits I liked:
Cambridge - he's the only new character that's continuously shown, and he just works, be it with Seven, be it with Chakotay - and I'm looking forward to his sessions with Janeway (there better be some of those!)
Chakotay-Seven - they had really nice scenes together. I always thought that C/7-pairing stupid, and given Chakotay's experiences with the Borg (Riley) I'd have wished for a stronger involvement of his in Seven's development. But I enjoy the friendship they have now.
Riley/the Caeliar - returning to the cooperative was an interesting move. Given that VOY picked up quite a few drones that were lost to the collective who knows what the Caeliar left in the D-quadrant for VOY to find. It's an interesting premise to think that they not only changed the nanites within drones but also the whole Borg technology on planets. I think there are still quite a few interesting stories there.
Kes - hopefully, VOY'll visit Ocampa in the near-future. With the slipstream that shouldn't be a problem.
Right now, VOY's the only 24th-century series I'm really looking forward to (given what I said at the beginning about TV-VOY I'd never have thought to actually write this). Dynamics are bound to change again, and I really hope that it's not just back to business as usual for Janeway. I want to see her struggle with everything that happened, I want to see her evolve beyond that struggle and recover her equilibrium. And I'd really love to see her interact with Tuvok (actually, the only character I really miss right now given that Icheb's back onboard VOY).
Hello friends,
For those of you who have taken the time to come here and express the full range of responses to the book, I have nothing but gratitude, whether you liked it, or not.
There are just a few things I'd like to address directly. I think more than any other book I've ever written, many of the responses to this one seem to reflect the reader's tastes and expectations. It's actually fascinating. That's not to say that some have not put those things aside and offered insightful and thoughful critiques. And perhaps it's never possible to bring anything othe than personal tastes and expectations to any evaluation such as this. But I've never had that sense as strongly in the past as I do now...with the obvious exception of those who were, in the past, quite vocal about their lack of interest in reading stories about Voyager that did not feature Janeway.
So, just a few things...
A lot of criticism seems to stem from the feeling that in one or many of the storylines..I simply went too far. That's fair. I'm always swinging for the fences so perhaps that's going to happen from time to time.
But do know this...the loss of ships had nothing to do with a realization that the canvas had been stretched too far, and there was no other way to deal with all of the ships, nor was it an attempt to shock for the sake of shock alone. Kudos to whoever it was above who noted that while the ships may be lost...the vast majority of the characters the series has invested time in up to this point are still alive. There's a reason for that.
For those who believe this was an attempt to reset Voyager to something more closely resembling the series, including Janeway's ongoing role, not so much.
Deranged Nessat (sp?)
I have rarely enjoyed a commentary on something I have written as much as I did your wall of text. It was brilliant. And there were times when I seriously wondered if my time spent with Trek fans such as yourself have truly blinded me to my own impressions to the point that anything anyone else thinks or feels about this work could become more important to me than my own internal compass. I have to hope not. I did find your response to the Q storyline in particular really interesting.
There's a lot of "outside the story" thinking that goes into the initial structuring of any work such as this. But once the writing starts, all of that, including any relating I may do to do the characters, goes away. It becomes an exercise in living as fully as I can, moment by moment, in every unique character's head as each scene is written from their point of view. When it's over I get to take a step back and look at things again through my own eyes, and then, through the readers. I am always surprised but some of the things that came out, but I can never truly evaluate what I've done from an objective place and I try not to go to the "literary critic" part of my brain that is so useful when I read other people's books. Doing it with my own is simply not constructive. But again, thank you for your lengthy and eloquent discussion.
Stoek,
I can't tell you how happy I was to see your words. I knew I was going to lose people going into this. I'm glad you weren't one of them.
BillJ,
I know...it's hard to believe looking back, that I was able to spend over 120,000 words writing Janeway and Chakotay in bed. There were times it was a struggle...but I soldiered on, comforted by the certainty that all anyone wants to read about when they pick up a Trek novel is the sex lives of the main characters.
But on a more serious note, I'm sorry to you, and many others that the series has taken a direction you don't find interesting. I enjoyed reading your thoughts about the previous works and those will be missed going forward.
And finally...to whoever noted above that the book felt "thin"...I had the exact same feeling when I got it. I never have input into any of that, but I too, was suprised. For those keeping track, Eternal Tide is the second longest relaunch book I've done so far. Full Circle clocked it at around 134,000 words. This was 120,000 ish. Both Unworthy and Children of the Storm were closer to 100,000. And all three of the previous novels "felt" more solid in my hands than this one did. Perhaps this is one of many ways the shift to ebooks for a great many of my readers is now to be felt.
Anyway...you guys are all terrific and I do enjoy reading your thoughts. It gives this process a more "community" feel, though sadly, it can never mean that we make content decision by committee. In fact, as I think Zarkon noted in another thread, our decisions are in many cases made in spite of those committees...even the most vocal.
Best,
Kirsten Beyer
For those of you who have taken the time to come here and express the full range of responses to the book, I have nothing but gratitude, whether you liked it, or not.
There are just a few things I'd like to address directly. I think more than any other book I've ever written, many of the responses to this one seem to reflect the reader's tastes and expectations. It's actually fascinating. That's not to say that some have not put those things aside and offered insightful and thoughful critiques. And perhaps it's never possible to bring anything othe than personal tastes and expectations to any evaluation such as this. But I've never had that sense as strongly in the past as I do now...with the obvious exception of those who were, in the past, quite vocal about their lack of interest in reading stories about Voyager that did not feature Janeway.
So, just a few things...
A lot of criticism seems to stem from the feeling that in one or many of the storylines..I simply went too far. That's fair. I'm always swinging for the fences so perhaps that's going to happen from time to time.
But do know this...the loss of ships had nothing to do with a realization that the canvas had been stretched too far, and there was no other way to deal with all of the ships, nor was it an attempt to shock for the sake of shock alone. Kudos to whoever it was above who noted that while the ships may be lost...the vast majority of the characters the series has invested time in up to this point are still alive. There's a reason for that.
For those who believe this was an attempt to reset Voyager to something more closely resembling the series, including Janeway's ongoing role, not so much.
Deranged Nessat (sp?)
I have rarely enjoyed a commentary on something I have written as much as I did your wall of text. It was brilliant. And there were times when I seriously wondered if my time spent with Trek fans such as yourself have truly blinded me to my own impressions to the point that anything anyone else thinks or feels about this work could become more important to me than my own internal compass. I have to hope not. I did find your response to the Q storyline in particular really interesting.
There's a lot of "outside the story" thinking that goes into the initial structuring of any work such as this. But once the writing starts, all of that, including any relating I may do to do the characters, goes away. It becomes an exercise in living as fully as I can, moment by moment, in every unique character's head as each scene is written from their point of view. When it's over I get to take a step back and look at things again through my own eyes, and then, through the readers. I am always surprised but some of the things that came out, but I can never truly evaluate what I've done from an objective place and I try not to go to the "literary critic" part of my brain that is so useful when I read other people's books. Doing it with my own is simply not constructive. But again, thank you for your lengthy and eloquent discussion.
Stoek,
I can't tell you how happy I was to see your words. I knew I was going to lose people going into this. I'm glad you weren't one of them.
BillJ,
I know...it's hard to believe looking back, that I was able to spend over 120,000 words writing Janeway and Chakotay in bed. There were times it was a struggle...but I soldiered on, comforted by the certainty that all anyone wants to read about when they pick up a Trek novel is the sex lives of the main characters.
But on a more serious note, I'm sorry to you, and many others that the series has taken a direction you don't find interesting. I enjoyed reading your thoughts about the previous works and those will be missed going forward.
And finally...to whoever noted above that the book felt "thin"...I had the exact same feeling when I got it. I never have input into any of that, but I too, was suprised. For those keeping track, Eternal Tide is the second longest relaunch book I've done so far. Full Circle clocked it at around 134,000 words. This was 120,000 ish. Both Unworthy and Children of the Storm were closer to 100,000. And all three of the previous novels "felt" more solid in my hands than this one did. Perhaps this is one of many ways the shift to ebooks for a great many of my readers is now to be felt.
Anyway...you guys are all terrific and I do enjoy reading your thoughts. It gives this process a more "community" feel, though sadly, it can never mean that we make content decision by committee. In fact, as I think Zarkon noted in another thread, our decisions are in many cases made in spite of those committees...even the most vocal.
Best,
Kirsten Beyer
Fifty Shades of Janeway!
This was the initial reaction by a lot of fans until we all realized the type is smaller and I think the pages just a bit thinner. That might have more to do with the price of paper than anything. What has happened is that people bought the book like I did a little early at Barnes and Noble, then because they loved what you wrote so much they purchased the Kindle version so they could change the fount.
Kirsten,
I want to say thank you for this book. It was epic in scope and had a wonder and grandeur to it that has been missing from a lot of Trek books recently. I liked that bringing Janeway back involved the universe being at risk, It went well with the stakes of actually bringing back the character in the first place. I see in your writing that you love these characters and I thank you for writing a story that honors them and makes me excited to keep reading. Writers usually get criticized and not often praised, but this is worthy of accolade.
I want to say thank you for this book. It was epic in scope and had a wonder and grandeur to it that has been missing from a lot of Trek books recently. I liked that bringing Janeway back involved the universe being at risk, It went well with the stakes of actually bringing back the character in the first place. I see in your writing that you love these characters and I thank you for writing a story that honors them and makes me excited to keep reading. Writers usually get criticized and not often praised, but this is worthy of accolade.
I can't comment on the novel as my copy arrived 12 minutes ago - only days after Amazon emailed me to say it had been delayed and would be due towards the end of September !
I fully expect to enjoy it greatly - I have it's predecessors, but what I can say is that I love how it looks and feels. The more compact format seems rather nicer than the earlier 'doorstops' !
I fully expect to enjoy it greatly - I have it's predecessors, but what I can say is that I love how it looks and feels. The more compact format seems rather nicer than the earlier 'doorstops' !
Thanks for taking the time to reply, Kirsten!
My earlier remarks were a bit simplistic in the matter because of a time squeeze, maybe I can flesh out my thoughts a bit more here. And these thoughts are just how I interpret the whole of Voyager, TV series and novels...
1. Mulgrew and Beltran had absolutely no chemistry on screen. Not really Mulgrew's fault, as it's tough to have chemistry with a block of wood. Plus, I now imagine any scene Janeway is in as Mulgrew currently looks in the series NTSF:SUV:SD. I know it's a personal problem, but it is what it is...
2. I liked the road that Chakotay was on in the first two books, a man who had a shattering loss and was picking up the pieces to his life. It made the character likable in a way that he hadn't been up to that point in time.
3. Much like The Search for Spock, this just feels like it's rolling back a monumental event in Trek. Just like Saavik, I fully expect that characters will again be taking a back seat to Janeway, who was the star of Voyager, especially Chakotay.
I really have enjoyed your writing and if you ever write a TOS or TNG book, I am there cash in hand. But I prefer to remember your Voyager as one that outgrew the concept of the show, not falling back on what's came before.
I know we were kinda 'stuck' with using Q as part of this, seeing as how Janeway finished her previous appearance, but it ends up being hard to avoid the 'deus ex machina' feeling that way.
Honestly, had no problem with the Janeway parts, that was handled about as well as you could, all things considered. Introduced pretty well, people had the right reactions, etc.
Thought Cpt. Eden's storyline ended abruptly, and wish we'd had more time on the scavenger hunt for her origin, over more books. Along with the Borg, that was the fun of her character. Guess she had to go to justify Janeway hanging around, but miss the interaction there, and the hunt.
Again, problem with using Q is that things end up arbitrary. Hated the Amanda Rogers death. Deleted from existance, never even existed. It's fine in the sense that they were deleting the spawn of both Q and Omega at the same time, but her death really wasn't given any weight. it's like she went off to go investigate something, and then just never turned up before the end of the movie. Expected more interaction from her in the Omega sections, or at least some impact over her death. She just turned into a throw-away.
I'm sure we'll find out that most of the favorites were saved when the 4 ships were blown up, but still felt like too much. Had most of the ships escaped and only ONE got stuck/blown up, it would have had the same impact. Just feels like we killed the whole point of the DQ mission, and disbanded the fleet. Sure they'll send a replacement ship along with Achilles back, but then what's the point of blowing them all up to begin with? Just felt like a waste, and rang hollow anyway. Spent all that time in the last book rebuilding the crashed ship, and it only got like 4 more pages of screen time before being blown up again. Were made to care, and then there's not enough payoff to justify it.
Chakotay's "death" - seemed pointless. No emotional impact, and immediately undone anyway. Wanted to care, given the empty hint to Janeway that her rebirth would have a cost, but we all knew he wouldn't die, so why send him? Biggest benefit of bringing Janeway back is to explore the relationship, so you weren't going to kill him. Would have been a bigger scene if you picked the new helmsman, that way you at least get a 'named' character to dangle. In-universe, justification was that she was needed to get Voyager to safety, but Paris could have handled that. Then at least we would have been worried that she may actually die, despite Jr. bringing her back.
Honestly, had no problem with the Janeway parts, that was handled about as well as you could, all things considered. Introduced pretty well, people had the right reactions, etc.
Thought Cpt. Eden's storyline ended abruptly, and wish we'd had more time on the scavenger hunt for her origin, over more books. Along with the Borg, that was the fun of her character. Guess she had to go to justify Janeway hanging around, but miss the interaction there, and the hunt.
Again, problem with using Q is that things end up arbitrary. Hated the Amanda Rogers death. Deleted from existance, never even existed. It's fine in the sense that they were deleting the spawn of both Q and Omega at the same time, but her death really wasn't given any weight. it's like she went off to go investigate something, and then just never turned up before the end of the movie. Expected more interaction from her in the Omega sections, or at least some impact over her death. She just turned into a throw-away.
I'm sure we'll find out that most of the favorites were saved when the 4 ships were blown up, but still felt like too much. Had most of the ships escaped and only ONE got stuck/blown up, it would have had the same impact. Just feels like we killed the whole point of the DQ mission, and disbanded the fleet. Sure they'll send a replacement ship along with Achilles back, but then what's the point of blowing them all up to begin with? Just felt like a waste, and rang hollow anyway. Spent all that time in the last book rebuilding the crashed ship, and it only got like 4 more pages of screen time before being blown up again. Were made to care, and then there's not enough payoff to justify it.
Chakotay's "death" - seemed pointless. No emotional impact, and immediately undone anyway. Wanted to care, given the empty hint to Janeway that her rebirth would have a cost, but we all knew he wouldn't die, so why send him? Biggest benefit of bringing Janeway back is to explore the relationship, so you weren't going to kill him. Would have been a bigger scene if you picked the new helmsman, that way you at least get a 'named' character to dangle. In-universe, justification was that she was needed to get Voyager to safety, but Paris could have handled that. Then at least we would have been worried that she may actually die, despite Jr. bringing her back.
Kirsten, thanks for taking the time to respond.
I sm not finished yet, so I have to reserve final judgment.
I sm not finished yet, so I have to reserve final judgment.
I know this has been mentioned in the thread before but does anyone know if Kirsten has a blog or a fb / twitter that i can message her on 
I want to discuss some of her comments in acknowledgments.
In regards to the book, i loved it and i actually believe it was actually better then the other previous 2. Kirsten not only captures the characters that she has wrote about so far, but has written the Q as i remember them on tv.... a first for trek novels. Whilst reading, i was a bit dissapointed to learn that a lot of the ships had been lost, until like someone above - realized that most of them had been saved and sent back to the alpha quadrant.
Overall it was a very good novel and once again Kirsten brings me back to voyager in a way the series never did.
I want to discuss some of her comments in acknowledgments. In regards to the book, i loved it and i actually believe it was actually better then the other previous 2. Kirsten not only captures the characters that she has wrote about so far, but has written the Q as i remember them on tv.... a first for trek novels. Whilst reading, i was a bit dissapointed to learn that a lot of the ships had been lost, until like someone above - realized that most of them had been saved and sent back to the alpha quadrant.
Overall it was a very good novel and once again Kirsten brings me back to voyager in a way the series never did.