VOY did a GREAT job with the Borg
- Thread starter david g
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Certainly. Okay, let's ignore the E-D and use the E-E and the fleet of ships that got annhilated by the single borg cube. The E-E is a later model ship, a much larger ship, and a ship designed for much more beligerant duty than Voyager. Other ships that were equally new and shiny got fucking owned by a single borg cube. Even still in today's world the principal advanced in technology are pretty much modular. Its easy to equip a ship built 25 years ago with better amunition and faster computers (The principal advances). With replicators retrofitting is even easier. Therefore the First Contact fleet would be at a later point of technology than Voyager, cut off from Federation technology.
Bullshit. Sure they could make the replacement parts, but it would time and energy intensive. Imagine building a shuttle, warp core, deflector dish, or EPS junction. They don't have a replicator big enough for that. They would have to build them peice by peice. I imagine a shuttle hull would need to be a single peice of metal. Many overhauls would require stopping the ship and being able to work on the outer hull. That's why starbases exist. We see much evidence of the Enterprise D stopping at starbases. While Voyager might be able to acomplish this with space suits, it would take for fucking ever.
The Borg have access to far more humans in far more important positions that 7 of 9 was in. They can manage a large force instantaneously. Their weapons and shield are years beyond what the Federation has. A single ship was able to destroy an entire fleet. The Borg act like complete dumbasses. They never seem to decide "Well, okay, let's take this bitch down." I don't care how much technology 7 of 9 has, Voyager can't take down four borg cubes. I have a hell of a fucking time beleiving it can take down one. The Hansens intel is like 20 fucking years old. The Borg can change themselves much faster than Voyager can, and decades old intel will be of no use. 7 of 9's intel will be increasingly obsolete very, very fast. The Borg maintain a huge empire and are contantly assimilating and researching. VOyager is a frigate no where near any sort of freindly base.
Becuase there wasn't any other use for a principal character that B&B were contractually obligated to use? I don't care how well Neelix can barter. Voyager requires supplies of a very high technology level, and any society that can give them those supplies likely has replicators too. Voyager has very limited resources and would very quikcly run out of valuable things to trade. Trade is all well and good, but there needs to be something producing value.
Let's reverse the scenario to be more accurate. Imagine 19th century pioneers trying to cross the Soviet Union in the 1970s, a USSR that's wants them either arrested (assimilated) or dead. Sure there are plenty of disillusioned people to give them help and plenty of places to hide, but the Soviet Union is far larger, has an enormous military, and is 100 years ahead of them in technology. Similarly the pioneers did not have a very large peice of machinery that requires advanced replacement parts and fuel. The engine of a wagon eats grass. If an axel breaks, well, its not the end of the world to replace it. On a modern ship when it comes time to replace turbine generator it has to sit in a specialized facility for a length of time.
^^Check out the episodes I gave you in my reply, they back up everything I said. When you do, then we can continue the conversation and address those issues too because I do have answers and back up proof stated within episodes too.
I will however address some of it, Voyager is not a turbine generator it's the equvilant of a flying computer. A computer if it's broken doesn't take weeks to fix. Why have a crew of Engineers onboard everyship if they still requires visiting a special facility to fix? If one of two people take a few hours to a day to fix a computer, how much less time does a whole team of 15 or more take?
BTW, did you not hear how every season how they stated nobody else in the Delta Q. has replicators? Once again, Voyager doesn't require advanced technology from other civilations they have a team of Engineers onboard. Did you not see Be'Lanna, Harry & Seven continually creating new devices and technology? They build a slipsteam drive, develope a skeletal transporter lock & a brand new shuttle craft too name a few. I also see you don't comprehend what recycling on a molecular level means either or the concept of recycling in of itself.
BTW, we never saw how big the fleet was in "First Contact" and we do know the E-E was at the Neutral Zone at the start of the attack. Did you estimate the time it takes from the Neutral Zone to Earth? The Starfleet ships we saw fighting the Borg, even the Defiant were still holding up against one cube when the E-E arrived. They held up far better that the images we saw from BOBW.
I will however address some of it, Voyager is not a turbine generator it's the equvilant of a flying computer. A computer if it's broken doesn't take weeks to fix. Why have a crew of Engineers onboard everyship if they still requires visiting a special facility to fix? If one of two people take a few hours to a day to fix a computer, how much less time does a whole team of 15 or more take?
BTW, did you not hear how every season how they stated nobody else in the Delta Q. has replicators? Once again, Voyager doesn't require advanced technology from other civilations they have a team of Engineers onboard. Did you not see Be'Lanna, Harry & Seven continually creating new devices and technology? They build a slipsteam drive, develope a skeletal transporter lock & a brand new shuttle craft too name a few. I also see you don't comprehend what recycling on a molecular level means either or the concept of recycling in of itself.
BTW, we never saw how big the fleet was in "First Contact" and we do know the E-E was at the Neutral Zone at the start of the attack. Did you estimate the time it takes from the Neutral Zone to Earth? The Starfleet ships we saw fighting the Borg, even the Defiant were still holding up against one cube when the E-E arrived. They held up far better that the images we saw from BOBW.
First of all by turbine I meant the warp core. The warp core is way too fucking big to just pop out of a replicator. It would require exotic metals (They say molecular, not atomic), complex machinery that would be too large to pop out of a replicator, a lot of time to test and make sure it is running, and replacing it would require at the very least to stop the ship for a few days. We know that ships require routine maintaince, that's why starbases exist. Do you think the UFP spent a huge amount of effort and time building those facilties if a ship could do it itself? Plus, if such complex parts can come flying out a replicator like its trivial don't you think during the dominion war the UFP would be spitting Sovreign Class warships out of an enourmous replicator like a machine gun?
To replace a deflector (Something likely since Voyager seems to do something the device wasn't meant to do at least once a year) you would have to physically take the old one off and put the new one on. This would be extremely hard without a starbase, that's why they exist. Plus, there is no replicator on Voyager large enough to make a deflector dish. I assume it has to be a single solid dish otherwise there would be minor imperfections everywhere that would interrupt the flow of particles.
Your the one who doesn't. First of all it is very clearly molecular not atomic. That means if you want something made of metal you need to put metal into the system. We don't see Voyager ripping off parts of the hull to build new shuttles, do we? It doesn't mean pressing a button and fancy things come out. There are clearly limitations. Again, we don't see starfleet just spitting out ships in a time of war from some gigantic replicator. An industrial replicator was mentioned as being very valuable in DS9. If replication was free like you seem to think they could just spit them out of a larger replicator. We also see the ENT-D going to starbases for supplies like photon torpedoes. I don't remember any evidence the replication technology has been revolutionized since the ENT-D was launched.
We hear dialog that they are bringing in several fleets. A fleet is the largest formation in a navy. It takes a long time to get from the neutral zone and we see the cube has taken moderate damage. However of these fleets we see maybe about 9 or 10 ships still fightirng. That means the Borg have destroyed 20-40 ships unless a fleet is significantly smaller in Starfleet, which I doubt. First Contact Starfleet is more advaned than Voyager. It has been a few years since Voyager got lost and they haven't established contact with earth yet.
^^You can't replicate a Warp Core because it contains anti-matter. Anti-Matter can't be replicated(Deadlock), but the casing to house it can. Voyager can land on planets, it doesn't need a Starbase for repairs. Because it can land, it can take the planets resources to put into the replicator to transform into other material it needs.(I believe Parallax is the ep. this is mentioned) The Enterprise can't enter a planets atmosphere, so it has no choice but to go to a Starbase to resupply. Voyager is a deep space scout ship, which means it's designed to be self sustaining because it's missions would take it far outside Federation space.(Innocence & Relitivity) It was designed to land for repairs just for this reason. They even showed this in one ep. during 6 or 7th season.(I can't remember the episode title but I'm sure someone else here knows)
No we don't see Voyager ripping off hulls of shuttles to bulid new ones, we do see them gathering debris of destroyed vessels and using that material to put back into their replicators. Once again, if you watched "Dark Frontier" they explained it. DS9 isn't a Federation Starbase, it's Cardassian. The technology as explained on the show works and is designed differently. Technology you learned on DS9 doesn't apply to Federation created technology. DS9 is also a Starbase, so of course sheets of material to repair it would be larger than material for a Starship. The Industral Replicator is required to meet demands of something of it's size.
Saying a fleet is the largest form in the Navy still isn't telling me how many ships were actually at the battle in "First Contact". What actual proof do you have 20 or 40 ships were destroyed? 20 to 40 is an extemely broad and random calculation and an assumption. Everything I have mentioned isn't an assumption, it's all been backed up in the episodes I've listed for you to allow you to check it for yourself.
No we don't see Voyager ripping off hulls of shuttles to bulid new ones, we do see them gathering debris of destroyed vessels and using that material to put back into their replicators. Once again, if you watched "Dark Frontier" they explained it. DS9 isn't a Federation Starbase, it's Cardassian. The technology as explained on the show works and is designed differently. Technology you learned on DS9 doesn't apply to Federation created technology. DS9 is also a Starbase, so of course sheets of material to repair it would be larger than material for a Starship. The Industral Replicator is required to meet demands of something of it's size.
Saying a fleet is the largest form in the Navy still isn't telling me how many ships were actually at the battle in "First Contact". What actual proof do you have 20 or 40 ships were destroyed? 20 to 40 is an extemely broad and random calculation and an assumption. Everything I have mentioned isn't an assumption, it's all been backed up in the episodes I've listed for you to allow you to check it for yourself.
The battle started out at Jupiter and moved toward earth. Checking Memory Alpha I obtained the confirmed number of ships at earth. The number is 27. A fleet generally consists of around 20 ships, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on its function. We have mention of three fleets in the battle. If 27 ships that are incrementally more advanced than Voyager and have no concerns about supply are a reasonable match for a Borg Cube than 1 should not be. But 27 is almost certainly too small a number. That's just the number visully confirmed when the ENT-E arrives. Almost certainly the borg destroyed some ships on the path from Jupiter to Earth.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Battle_of_Sector_001
The industrial replicators weren't for DS9, they were Federation Technology that was being gifted to another race. DS9 was the meeting point for one vessel trasfering them to another.
A warp core casing or a deflector dish are very, very large, much too large to come out of a replicator. Even if they had a larger replicator on board there is no way they have one large enough to make a deflector dish. Again, if a replicator is so flexible why are ships built rather than replicated?
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Battle_of_Sector_001
The industrial replicators weren't for DS9, they were Federation Technology that was being gifted to another race. DS9 was the meeting point for one vessel trasfering them to another.
A warp core casing or a deflector dish are very, very large, much too large to come out of a replicator. Even if they had a larger replicator on board there is no way they have one large enough to make a deflector dish. Again, if a replicator is so flexible why are ships built rather than replicated?
Disagree with this. See for example, the Dominion race on DS9. They remained an ominous threat from their very first appearance to their last, despite becoming more familiar for that whole course. It goes to show that with good writing, becoming less scary is not a must just beause an enemy becomes more familiar.
VOY definitely defanged the Borg. VOY didn't even live up to it's own episode's teaser trailer. Ie: The teaser where the crew is goofing off in a shuttle or whatnot then they see a Borg Cube on the viewscreen and they all start panicking. Then after the commercials are over, there is nothing to come in that episode to have justified the content of the teaser. They spend the whole episode outsmarting some wimpy "Borg Kids"?! Didn't know whether to laugh or cry. But did know that when the episode can't even live up to the premise of it's own teaser, then they have done something seriously wrong with the enemy it deals with.
To be fair though, the Borg first got defanged on TNG with episodes like "I, Borg" but it seems TNG is often viewed from under rose-colored glasses.
