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VOY: Acts of Contrition Excerpt (Spoilers, Obviously)

Still, I have trouble grasping how a phrase that literally alleges someone to be in an incestuous relationship with their mother can be a compliment. Perhaps it's about neutralizing the negative impact of the term -- taking something that used to be a rather hideous accusation and defanging it by reducing it to a meaningless quartet of syllables or even choosing to interpret it as praise. But it still sounds pretty strange to a literal-minded sort like myself. And when I hear people using it as an actual insult rather than a joking compliment, it still grates quite harshly on me.

(Since we seem to really be diving into this now...)

Linguistic drift is a pretty commonly attested phenomenon; even literal meanings change. "Maid" used to mean a girl of high class, and now it most often literally refers to a rather working class job. Your own example "golly" is another; most people have no idea where that comes from. Now my students use "thirsty" to mean "horny". A lot of people incorrectly ascribe word mutation like this exclusively to slang, but it isn't - "slang" is just a new use of language by a particular group of people, and that's how all language drift starts.

Denotational meaning is only valid when that meaning is intentionally implied; language isn't a set of external rules, it's a method of communication. Those men on the bus dropping "muhfuh"s so casually were absolutely not meaning, or even thinking about, incestuous sex. So, that isn't what the word means anymore. That's what word meaning is - what you mean when you say something. One can ponder the origins, and that can be surprising or interesting, but it has nothing to do with what people actually mean when they say it.

From a linguistics perspective swear words are interesting precisely because they so often lack any denotational meaning, and are purely connotation. The "mother fucking" in Kirsten's name expresses a set of connotations but tells us nothing whatsoever about any actions she personally did.

It's not even that odd that a positive phrase comes from an originally remarkably negative one. Lots of words do that. "Cool" originally was negative, implying distance and a lack of passion. It was reinterpreted as something desirable pretty quick. Hell, it isn't even that uncommon to hear people literally use the word "bad" to mean awesome. Or consider "that's shit" compared to "that's the shit".

Swearing indicates emphasis and power, both positive and negative; regardless of word origin, the effective meaning isn't literal at all. Analyzing swear words literally is missing their purpose.
 
Denotational meaning is only valid when that meaning is intentionally implied; language isn't a set of external rules, it's a method of communication. Those men on the bus dropping "muhfuh"s so casually were absolutely not meaning, or even thinking about, incestuous sex. So, that isn't what the word means anymore. That's what word meaning is - what you mean when you say something. One can ponder the origins, and that can be surprising or interesting, but it has nothing to do with what people actually mean when they say it.

Well, yes, I certainly do understand that objectively. It's just that, as a language-oriented person, I'm attuned to the origins and literal meanings of words, so hearing some words used in ways that run opposite to their literal meanings sounds odd to me. Not wrong, just odd.


Or consider "that's shit" compared to "that's the shit".

I was actually going to mention that one, because I find it completely bizarre that just adding the definite article reverses the meaning.


Swearing indicates emphasis and power, both positive and negative; regardless of word origin, the effective meaning isn't literal at all. Analyzing swear words literally is missing their purpose.

Again, I know that objectively, but because of the way my mind works, I can't help but be aware of the literal meanings of the words as well, and thus be aware of the rather striking contrasts between meaning and usage.
 
No but that's my point; those aren't the "meanings" of those words at all, literal or otherwise. They may once have been, they might possibly be in other contexts, but in this context that isn't what the word means. There is no contrast between meaning and usage; usage is meaning, that's what language is for.

What you really mean is "the rather striking contrast between meaning and some other things those words used to mean or sometimes mean", which is fair, but it's not what you're writing. You may as well be struck by how odd it would seem for someone to go bury money in the silt by a river when they say they're "depositing money in a bank".
 
Coarse language (whether sexual, scatological, or blasphemous) carries some shock value even when used literally ("Oedipus was a mother fucker"; "If I don't get to the men's room, I'm going to shit my pants"), but when used non-literally ("Col. Green is one mean mother fucker"; "This Pakled shuttlecraft is a piece of shit"), the shock value becomes the meaning.

But George Carlin did a far better job of analyzing the non-literal use of coarse language than we have, at least so far, and he did it in the form of stand-up routines that are now classics.

And some languages have particularly rich invective. I can't help but think of a Starfleet Corps of Engineers novella in which Captain Gold called somebody a mamzer (not quite sure why it was spelled "momser" in the book, given that "mamzer" is the usual Romanization). Being Goyish, I had to look it up (and the odd Romanization made that difficult); turns out it's a far stronger (by several orders of magnitude) insult than merely calling somebody a "bastard."

(And we must all acknowledge that Ozzy Osbourne is a geek, and has been since the incident with the bat, whether he knew it was a real bat before he bit the head off or not!)
 
...but when used non-literally... the shock value becomes the meaning.

But that's just it -- once it becomes used so casually, it loses all shock value and is no longer an effective profanity. That's why the guy on the bus who was using "muh-fug" in every sentence needed to fall back on "hell" when he actually wanted to convey emotion. Eventually words that were once serious and shocking profanities, like "golly," lose their impact and become casual and even ridiculous.
 
Funny you should mention "golly": even before you mentioned it the first time, the sharp left-turn I unwittingly threw this thread into had me thinking of the "jive" scene in Airplane!, in which Shakespearean actor Al White and his friend and colleague Norman Gibbs (who wrote their own dialogue) present "jive" as if it were an actual language (which Barbara Billingsley happens to speak; I believe White and Gibbs wrote her lines as well). We see "shit" subtitled as "golly"; we also see how utterly incongruous it is for an elderly upper-middle-class white woman to be completely fluent in "jive."
 
That's what we were talking about. Until I made an offhand remark that caused the whole thread to take a sharp left turn.:alienblush:
 
That's what we were talking about. Until I made an offhand remark that caused the whole thread to take a sharp left turn.:alienblush:

Is it really so surprising to imagine that implying that a writer ought to censor herself on a BBS that has never censored profanity in a decade and a half of operation, and further implying that especially women should not use profanity, and then further making remarks that border on racial stereotyping, might not go down well in an online community whose shared ethos is mostly one of egalitarianism and free expression?
 
Kirsten, have you ever seen the movies 21 Jump Street and 22 Jump Street? Specifically, Ice Cube's role as Captain Dickson?


On a different note, Tim Russ, Garrett Wang, Jeri Ryan, Robert Picardo, and Ethan Philips are involved with Delta Rising, the upcoming expansion to Star Trek Online.

http://www.startrek.com/article/star-trek-online-delta-rising-official-launch-date-announced

Anyone know if they've ever read Christie Golden and Kirsten Beyer's post-"Endgame" novels?
 
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Quick mod note - and apologies for being late catching up with this thread - the TrekBBS board has always allowed swearing/cursing on the unrestricted parts of the board - it's not a children's site.

And now back to the discussion about the surprising long excerpt that has been provided of Kristen Beyer's new novel :techman:
 
Can't wait for this novel. I read chapter 1 on amazon and got even more excited for it come come available. I really enjoy reading about Captain Farkas and the other Full Circle fleet crew members. KMFB makes characters that exist in novels only come alive to me more than some of the characters I watched on Voyager (Sorry Chakotay), so I can't wait to see whats next!
 
Well, when i was reading about Farkas being so b... with Janeway and made everything possible to take Janeway's command position, i wished i had the real character near to me so i can kill her!
 
Well, when i was reading about Farkas being so b... with Janeway and made everything possible to take Janeway's command position, i wished i had the real character near to me so i can kill her!

Yeah I started out hating her a bit but the character has some depth and I really took a liking to her and I was glad to see her come around for the most part. Plus, I feel many officers would have questions about a person they don't know coming back from 'the dead' and then becoming their boss basically. Sometimes it's nice to see people having normal reactions to the crew of ships like Voyager and also the Enterprise dying and coming back to life all the time. I mean, we never hear about officers from ships like the Bradbury or even Excelsior bringing people back to life...bound to ruffle a few feathers when other people do it
 
Capt. Farkas is more ok by me lol for now since she has "seen the light" re: Admiral KJ and her actions / motivations. We'll see what happens in the new novel now that Janeway is her boss, how they get along, etc. But hopefully by the end of Acts of C. she & Dr. Sal are having a weekly card game or playing pool w/ KJ (she could use a couple women friends IMHO).
 
Well, when i was reading about Farkas being so b... with Janeway and made everything possible to take Janeway's command position, i wished i had the real character near to me so i can kill her!

Yeah I started out hating her a bit but the character has some depth and I really took a liking to her and I was glad to see her come around for the most part. Plus, I feel many officers would have questions about a person they don't know coming back from 'the dead' and then becoming their boss basically. Sometimes it's nice to see people having normal reactions to the crew of ships like Voyager and also the Enterprise dying and coming back to life all the time. I mean, we never hear about officers from ships like the Bradbury or even Excelsior bringing people back to life...bound to ruffle a few feathers when other people do it

I had no problem with Farkas' questioning of Janeway. It was entirely justifiable in-universe.

This is one strength of Beyer's writing: she can create characters and plots which challenge the protagonists and have them do so credibly.
 
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