Visual changes...the cause... The destrucion of the Kelvin?

[Jon1701]

Guys, its a reboot.

This stuff can't be explained away logically. No need to perform the mental gymnastics anymore. Its a fresh slate. It's been couched in this alternate-reality thing, but it really is a new interpretation of "Star Trek".

Which doesn't detract from either this movie or the 43 years of history that preceded it.

 

[adamisme]

Re: A repeat question from a few days ago...

ADAMISME-

What do you see that suggests no differences were present already when Nero emerged from the time vortex?

As you'll note above, the rest of us have gotten the feeling (in my case, it had to do with the tech and look of the Kelvin) that this was NOT the past of the Trek universe we know, but rather something a bit different.

Why do you feel the opposite? What makes you say there were NO apparent differences until Nero? (Also, what affect would Nero's destroying of the Kelvin have had on Federation tech going a slightly different route in the new timeline, which is pretty obvious from the look of the Enterprise and equipment?)

i just like to be different I just think that the assumption that everything up until Nero showed up was the same as we knew, but then we actually don't know much really about the time period between Enterprise and the The Original Series

 

[Hyperspace05]

The answer is clearly YES...

In the new time line, Enterprise launches 20+ (?) years later. And it appears to be bigger. So one can easily argue that lessons learned in the Kelvin incident were applied to the Enterprise. Perhaps the "constitution" ship program was scrapped and started over.

But much of it may also simply be explained away by the new movies using its budget to give everything an updated look. (And yes, that's OK because Trek is fictional, not a historical document!)

 

[gastrof]

Re: A repeat question from a few days ago...

...we actually don't know much really about the time period between Enterprise and the The Original Series

Someone else mentioned that too, but we did see the Kelvin and it looked a bit more like ships from the Kirk-movie era than TOS or ENT.

This is why I'm suspecting the Kelvin's tech was already better than it should have been, based on TOS.

As for the idea "Oh this is a whole new version, so it doesn't make any difference" (said in yet another reply), no, it does make a difference to those of us to whom it does.

If you're not interested, then move along. Don't tell us what we can and can't talk about. We're juggling this because WE want to juggle it, and if you don't then keep out of the way.

Trek fans are known for trying to figure out why "this seems to contradict that" and then coming up with an explanation that fits the seemingly contracdictory elements. This is a case of that, and since the film is presented as being an offshoot of the same 24th century Trek we already know, and thus a reworking of the TOS era, then we'd like to figure out just what's what.

Is this the TOS era, but altered by Nero, or is it something else? As one person put it, did Nero actually "go back AND SIDEWAYS" in time? Did "our" Nero and Spock end up in a parallel universe, which is why the Kelvin looked a little too good and a little too different? IS this a reworking of the TOS era, or is it a parallel to it that's now being made even more different by Nero's messing around?

We like to discuss such things, and come to a consensus.

If you don't want to, okay. You have fun your way.

Now...

Any other contributions? Pro or con to the parallel universe (not altered timeline) idea, or more in line with the simple "altered past" take?

 

[adamisme]

Re: A repeat question from a few days ago...

...we actually don't know much really about the time period between Enterprise and the The Original Series

Someone else mentioned that too, but we did see the Kelvin and it looked a bit more like ships from the Kirk-movie era than TOS or ENT.

This is why I'm suspecting the Kelvin's tech was already better than it should have been, based on TOS.

As for the idea "Oh this is a whole new version, so it doesn't make any difference" (said in yet another reply), no, it does make a difference to those of us to whom it does.

If you're not interested, then move along. Don't tell us what we can and can't talk about. We're juggling this because WE want to juggle it, and if you don't then keep out of the way.

Trek fans are known for trying to figure out why "this seems to contradict that" and then coming up with an explanation that fits the seemingly contracdictory elements. This is a case of that, and since the film is presented as being an offshoot of the same 24th century Trek we already know, and thus a reworking of the TOS era, then we'd like to figure out just what's what.

Is this the TOS era, but altered by Nero, or is it something else? As one person put it, did Nero actually "go back AND SIDEWAYS" in time? Did "our" Nero and Spock end up in a parallel universe, which is why the Kelvin looked a little too good and a little too different? IS this a reworking of the TOS era, or is it a parallel to it that's now being made even more different by Nero's messing around?

We like to discuss such things, and come to a consensus.

If you don't want to, okay. You have fun your way.

Now...


Any other contributions? Pro or con to the parallel universe (not altered timeline) idea, or more in line with the simple "altered past" take?

i'm just having a bit of levity, it really sounds that perhaps something pre what we saw, maybe as a result of the borg tech found in Enterprise (season 2 episode) was used to maybe improve Federation tech somewhat and in the Prime Universe it wasn't. So its possible a parallel universe ala Sliders where a decision was made at some point that slightly altered the timeline and maybe down the road Spock Prime (with his matrix...sorry couldn't resist) will work it out and be on his merry way home if he can. Hopefully it will be explored in books

 

[Ovation]

I can certainly buy the more advanced tech going forward from the encounter--it is a reaction to the encounter (and a normal one, within the universe in which it occurs). I just don't see what is so "advanced" about the Kelvin that makes it unlikely to be a precursor to the TOS Enterprise, especially as the Defiant, in Enterprise, seemed a clear technological leap over the NX-01.

 

[Phily B]

Honestly, I get the feeling some people would only like this film if they were still using shitty sets and uniforms from the 60s with no updates at all, including cinematography and FX.

 

[miraclefan]

^HE'S RIGHT!!!!

 

[CitizenjaQ]

Once one timeline change happens, the entire past and future is up for grabs.

Obviously events after a timeline change are going to be different. In this movie, Robau was not killed on that day. Maybe he would have lived another 50 years.

But the past can change too. Maybe Robau would have stopped a different crazy man from inventing a time machine and, say, assassinating George Washington. Because Robau was killed, crazy man succeeded where he would have failed before.

 

[Alrik]

The Kelvin had nothing to do with changes to the timeline. The Prime Timeline began its meltdown when Scotty gave up the secrets of transparent alumuminum to they guy at Plexicorp back in the 80's. Come to find out, the guy wasn't supposed to invent it afterall. To make matters worse Gillian's great, great, great, grand daughter was in charge of developement of the Constitution Class in the Prime Timeline, but since Gillian followed the whales to the 23rd century, the kid was never born. That's why the new E looks a little different and took longer to build.


I like it here. This is fun.

 

[Lyon_Wonder]

Re: A repeat question from a few days ago...

This one was different from the start. The Narada didn't just go backwards in time, it went sideways in realities. But that's a good thing, it allows the producers to re-conceptualize everything and make Trek fresh again. I wish they'd gone farther in this movie, introducing concepts like extended human lifespans, cyber-enhanced humans (the motorcycle cop maybe?), post-Singularity politics, etc. I love Trek Prime and would continue to watch new work done there until I ran out of anti-agathic therapy options, but it's based on concepts from sci-fi literature of the 1950s. I'd like to see an update that includes concepts that have developed in the fifty years since then.

If Khan’s the villain in a sequel, I doubt they're going to say the Eugenics Wars occurred in the 1990s or Khan escaped Earth on an interplanetary spaceship in 1996 because that would confuse non-Trekkies. The dates would likely be moved up to the mid-21st century at the earliest, and I’d be fine with it since this Trek is supposed to be a reboot.

 

[Alrik]

Re: A repeat question from a few days ago...

This one was different from the start. The Narada didn't just go backwards in time, it went sideways in realities. But that's a good thing, it allows the producers to re-conceptualize everything and make Trek fresh again. I wish they'd gone farther in this movie, introducing concepts like extended human lifespans, cyber-enhanced humans (the motorcycle cop maybe?), post-Singularity politics, etc. I love Trek Prime and would continue to watch new work done there until I ran out of anti-agathic therapy options, but it's based on concepts from sci-fi literature of the 1950s. I'd like to see an update that includes concepts that have developed in the fifty years since then.

If Khan’s the villain in a sequel, I doubt they're going to say the Eugenics Wars occurred in the 1990s or Khan escaped Earth on an interplanetary spaceship in 1996 because that would confuse non-Trekkies. The dates would likely be moved up to the mid-21st century at the earliest, and I’d be fine with it since this Trek is supposed to be a reboot.

You mean the Eugenics Wars didn't happen in the 90's??? Desert Storm wasn't a cover up for it??? Oh, my young adulthood. I feel so used.

 

[jamestyler]

Does it seem to those of you who've seen the film that changes in the Enterprise's design and the changes in phasers, tricorders, communicators, etc...

These changes all came as a result of the destruction of the Kelvin and Federation/Starfleet tech being taken in a different direction as a result, whatever the specific reason?

Yeah, those are my thoughts. Maybe some of the people who died on the Kelvin were actually gonna go on to help design the enterprise or other Trek technology, and since they died, others ended up doing the designs, hence the changes....

When a friend asked (we were joking about it - not taking things too seriously), thats the reason I put forward, heh.

My reasoning was that the guy who pioneered the TOS style died on the Kelvin and someone else filled his shoes and created a style in his image that was adopted.

Easy answer for the canon minded.

 

[Sisko_is_my_captain]

An alternate possibility is that Spock prime was altered before entering the anomaly. Nero went in first, made changes that propogated through time, Spock prime was altered without his knowledge, and then Spock prime entered the anomaly and came out thinking everything was normal. 1701-E was caught in temporal wake during ST:FC, which insulated them from timeline changes. The Guardian of Forever exerted an insulating effect on people left behind on his world. If Spock prime's anomaly didn't insulate him from changes to the timeline, he might have been altered in some way before going back in time. (?)

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Re: A repeat question from a few days ago...

If Khan’s the villain in a sequel, I doubt they're going to say the Eugenics Wars occurred in the 1990s or Khan escaped Earth on an interplanetary spaceship in 1996 because that would confuse non-Trekkies. The dates would likely be moved up to the mid-21st century at the earliest, and I’d be fine with it since this Trek is supposed to be a reboot.

I say: Dump the whole Eugenics Wars arc.

Seriously, think about it. You can't simply move up the numbers; first contact occurs somewhere around 2063: that's 54 years from now. It wasn't just Khan, it was an army of genetically engineered supermen. Fifty-four years seem a little tight to genetically modify all those people. Also, back then the genetic question was a current one; with all the fears of how that would divide those modified from the 'mundanes'. We've already clones a few animals, we use stem cells to grow new organs; it isn't that big of a deal any longer, only with certain conservative groups.

I might be misinformed, of course...

 

[TIN_MAN]

Does it seem to those of you who've seen the film that changes in the Enterprise's design and the changes in phasers, tricorders, communicators, etc...

These changes all came as a result of the destruction of the Kelvin and Federation/Starfleet tech being taken in a different direction as a result, whatever the specific reason?

Yeah, those are my thoughts. Maybe some of the people who died on the Kelvin were actually gonna go on to help design the enterprise or other Trek technology, and since they died, others ended up doing the designs, hence the changes....

When a friend asked (we were joking about it - not taking things too seriously), thats the reason I put forward, heh.

My reasoning was that the guy who pioneered the TOS style died on the Kelvin and someone else filled his shoes and created a style in his image that was adopted.

Easy answer for the canon minded.

That's how I see it, It's the "butterfly effect" or in Trekian terms, the "Edith Keeler effect". The destruction of the Kelvin could have altered the future in any number of unforseen ways? As for why the Kelvin seems more advanced than TOS? Same reason the NX-E does, the result of previous tampering with the time line, the "temporal cold war", and all that.

 

[srombomb]

Re: A repeat question from a few days ago...

...we actually don't know much really about the time period between Enterprise and the The Original Series

Someone else mentioned that too, but we did see the Kelvin and it looked a bit more like ships from the Kirk-movie era than TOS or ENT.

This is why I'm suspecting the Kelvin's tech was already better than it should have been, based on TOS.

As for the idea "Oh this is a whole new version, so it doesn't make any difference" (said in yet another reply), no, it does make a difference to those of us to whom it does.

If you're not interested, then move along. Don't tell us what we can and can't talk about. We're juggling this because WE want to juggle it, and if you don't then keep out of the way.

Trek fans are known for trying to figure out why "this seems to contradict that" and then coming up with an explanation that fits the seemingly contracdictory elements. This is a case of that, and since the film is presented as being an offshoot of the same 24th century Trek we already know, and thus a reworking of the TOS era, then we'd like to figure out just what's what.

Is this the TOS era, but altered by Nero, or is it something else? As one person put it, did Nero actually "go back AND SIDEWAYS" in time? Did "our" Nero and Spock end up in a parallel universe, which is why the Kelvin looked a little too good and a little too different? IS this a reworking of the TOS era, or is it a parallel to it that's now being made even more different by Nero's messing around?

We like to discuss such things, and come to a consensus.

If you don't want to, okay. You have fun your way.

Now...

Any other contributions? Pro or con to the parallel universe (not altered timeline) idea, or more in line with the simple "altered past" take?

This is killing me... Maybe the Kelvin looks like that of TMP era ships because of the fact the producers said they liked that look the best and wanted to pay homage to it? I don't understand why people sit around figuring out the WHY for something that does not even exist in reality. Really, the Kelvin looked the way it looked not because of a different time line, but because the bloody producers of this movie thought that era and design of ships looked the coolest for the big screen! There is no great hidden meaning behind it.

Not knocking the ability to debate all things Trek, but I am hinting that quite possibly we all take this stuff to the extreme.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I like to think that the timeline was the same up until the Narada destroyed the Kelvin. I like to think that the Federation/Starfleet heard what the Kelvin survivors said about a huge super powerful Romulan ship and decided to bring out the latest technologies earlier than usual.
It always takes decades for new technologies to hit the market, so Starfleet may have thought let's not wait any longer let's get this new technology out there now which led to the new Entperise design and technology.

 

[Nomad8324]

They might have spent more money and time and took more risks to develop tech sooner.

I don't think they took it to any extremes though. 1 hit from the Narada knocked the Enterprise's shields down to 32% afterall.

 

[Silent_Bob]

My pet theory is that the Kelvin era changes are a knock on effect from Enterprise and the Xindi. Earth had a devestating attack carried out on it, sure it was resolved the the Xindi didnt really mean it, but just look how 9/11 has shaped America's foreign and domestic policies. You cant tell me half of Florida being vapourised wouldnt have serious effects on the timeline.

Perhaps Starfleet decided they needed better defensive technology as quickly as possible, which results in the advancements shown in the Crap Timeline. Then someone on the Kelvin was supposed to suggest that maybe they should focus on the exploration side, and move away from a military focus, resulting in the TOS look we knew. Instead they get blown to bits by the Darth Maul brigade.