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videogames as art

Why are gamers so obsessed with what everyone else thinks of them? Just enjoy the fucking things and stop giving a shit if other people look down on the medium. Game makers get the last laugh--all the way to the bank.
 
Gamers are obsessed because the people who DONT see games as art tend to also believe that games should be censored/make it a crime to sell violent games to minors.
 
It's just people attacking what they don't understand. That's human nature.

Just feel happy that you can experience and enjoy video games in the same way that people enjoy television, films and music.

I do agree that the term 'game' needs to be changed, as it implies 'fun', and in the context of a realistic war game I can see how some people may be offended by such a 'game'.
 
Gamers are obsessed because the people who DONT see games as art tend to also believe that games should be censored/make it a crime to sell violent games to minors.

Now see I don't have a problem with that last part, but then games have had age ratings (just like films) for quite some time now. The problem as I see it is parents and (possibly most often) older siblings not being responsible by letting them get their hands on inappropriate material.

Let's say for the sake of argument that a nine year old watches one of the Saw films. Is it the film maker's fault if that kid (assuming he's highly impressionable and not terribly bright) goes out and does something unfortunate with a power drill? Of course not...and equally you can't exactly blame Black & Decker either. The fault lies with whoever the hell gave the little bugger access to things he shouldn't have been, or neglected to keep tabs on what he was up to.

So the root of these cyclical outcries by pressure groups and over-excitable censors does seem to be the pervasive misconception that video games are solely aimed at children or even adolescents. I'm not sure a re-branding is the answer and even if it was tried I think it'd sound forced. Such terms are usually coined organically, trying to impose one that was thought up from scratch probably won't catch on.

To me it's not even a question video games are art or not, that's irrelevant. I certainly wouldn't call most films "art", but then I wouldn't call a pile of bricks, an unmade bed or a suffocated animal in a glass box art either...but that's a whole other discussion.
 
I thought this was gonna be about one of Roger Ebert's "video games are not art" rants.
 
Well, I think at this point it is whether or not games should be protected under the First Amendment. Unless SCOTUS finds that games are like porn though, I find it unlikely that games will end up being tossed into the porn ghetto though.

As for the failed Fallujah game mentioned in the video, I think that was a combination of the gaming press being full of idiot manbabies and Konami not having the balls to stand up for a game that both Atomic and their consultants/soldiers believed in.
Because, of course, when we talk about honoring soldiers everyone counts except the actual soldiers.

Of course, the less said about the Holocaust game the better I guess. Whether or not you think Luc Benard is a pretentious prick, the fact a game about the Holocaust can't even get made is an indication of how backwards the medium can be.

(On the flip side, there are children's books about the Holocaust that have won major awards).

I dunno, on the bigger issue of whether games will be taken seriously? If people who play them and the people who make them continue to treat them as children's toys, then that's all they will be.
 
Game makers get the last laugh--all the way to the bank.

No, we're too busy doing unpaid overtime to do any laughing.

Can I hug you?!

If we're not getting unpaid overtime, we're getting paid overtime - while working on temporary contract. With no benefits. :lol:

Considering that developers hire artists to do texturing, modeling, and concept work - and writers to do the story, how can the end result be anything but art?! I believe Penny Arcade made this argument once :) Sure, there's budget games, but having cheap stinkers is true with any media. And even budget games had an artist in there somewhere done the line. Trust me, I know :)
 
So the root of these cyclical outcries by pressure groups and over-excitable censors does seem to be the pervasive misconception that video games are solely aimed at children or even adolescents.
QFT. Some games are made for kids, just like some movies are made purely for gruesome shock value and some music exists solely to offend people.

As for the art thing, all of this boils down to the conflicting paradigm of the establishment or academic/cultural elites being given the largely unquestioned authority to govern or dictate what medium is and is not art, thus leaving the subject matter, in this case games, unshielded from certain kinds of unfair criticism and scrutiny. Shielding that "valid" works of art tend to receive.

Unfortunately there is little that can realistically be done about it, as society does in fact grant this power to the unseen "they" to make this determination and until they do, games will continue to be labeled in quixotic ways, both positive and negative, with all the ensuing drama that entails. Of course being labeled art won't be a panacea of acceptance, rendering all criticisms of the medium moot (who would want that?). It may, however, act as a vanguard, especially as it regards censorship.

As with all other forms of entertainment and, indeed, art, it is censorship that remains the greatest danger to the right (yes, 'right') of the individual to have unfettered access to the medium. History tells me that gaming will almost certainly win out in the end.

To quote a game:
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
 
So the root of these cyclical outcries by pressure groups and over-excitable censors does seem to be the pervasive misconception that video games are solely aimed at children or even adolescents.
QFT. Some games are made for kids, just like some movies are made purely for gruesome shock value and some music exists solely to offend people.

As for the art thing, all of this boils down to the conflicting paradigm of the establishment or academic/cultural elites being given the largely unquestioned authority to govern or dictate what medium is and is not art, thus leaving the subject matter, in this case games, unshielded from certain kinds of unfair criticism and scrutiny. Shielding that "valid" works of art tend to receive.

Unfortunately there is little that can realistically be done about it, as society does in fact grant this power to the unseen "they" to make this determination and until they do, games will continue to be labeled in quixotic ways, both positive and negative, with all the ensuing drama that entails. Of course being labeled art won't be a panacea of acceptance, rendering all criticisms of the medium moot (who would want that?). It may, however, act as a vanguard, especially as it regards censorship.

As with all other forms of entertainment and, indeed, art, it is censorship that remains the greatest danger to the right (yes, 'right') of the individual to have unfettered access to the medium. History tells me that gaming will almost certainly win out in the end.

To quote a game:
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.

Yeah, it's just a big conspiracy, huh? The establishment is trying to suppress the enormous vision of the gaming world. Oy.

The closest things we have to video games in "real life" are sports and other games (board games, card games, etc.) Those are not traditionally considered to be artistic in nature. If you compare a sport to a video game, there are a lot of similarities:

1. Rules that dictate how the game must be played.
2. Distinctive visual elements (sports have uniforms and equipment, games have graphics.)
3. Competition and goal-setting.

Yes, artists work on games. Textures and music and models don't come out of thin air. But then business brochures also have art in them, produced by artists (photographers, graphic designers), and few people would come out and say business brochures are art.

I'm not saying that no game should be considered art, but that gaming is such a diverse arena we should hesitate to say all games are art. I think the biggest disservice we do to the argument of games as art is insisting that video games as a concept should be put under the artistic umbrella.

I don't think there is any question that some video games should be considered art. RPGs that weave epic stories and contain strong characterization would be almost indistinguishable from a serialized TV show if not for the interactivity and formalized battle systems. Some games create an immersive experience and pull you into a richly-detailed and thought-out environment, which is ideally what any great work of art does. Some games challenge the conventions of the medium, which is an artistic move in and of itself--anything that challenges what constitutes art is inherently artistic, I think.

But then you have things like shoot-'em-ups, and those are a lot of fun, but artistically I think they're the equivalent of going bowling. It's amusing, there's a challenge involved, but it's probably not art.

In short, I suspect a lot of the resistance to calling video games "art" is the insistence that the medium itself be considered artistic, thus encompassing all games under the umbrella of "art." And I think it's fair to criticize that approach. Gaming is diverse enough that we really should take the time to evaluate what sorts of games and what specific games really have artistic merit and which ones don't.

I am firmly in the camp pushing for video games to be recognized for their artistic qualities, but the question, "Are video games art?" has a much more nuanced answer than a simple "yes" or "no."
 
Yes, artists work on games. Textures and music and models don't come out of thin air. But then business brochures also have art in them, produced by artists (photographers, graphic designers), and few people would come out and say business brochures are art.

That's absolutely correct. There are some very odd and frequently repeated reasons why people think video games should be art that completely miss the mark, and the fact that art is in them is one of them. And I say that as an artist who works on video games.

Film is, undisputed, an artistic medium. But we don't consider all films art, nor does the question even come up. And yet, all movies contain art: writing is an art form, acting is an art form, makeup is an art form, set design is an art form, etc. What makes a medium art is not the components but something more then the sum of the components. As such, saying that video games are art because we artists make art for them is a bad argument.

What does make video games art, in my opinion, is the capacity of the medium to create meaningful experiences for the people playing them. As far as I'm concerned, this is an undisputed fact and if even a single game is able to be considered artistic expression, it essentially vindicates the entire medium. People who don't know much about games generally decry the fact that they are interactive as the reason that they can't be art which is entirely backwards; their interactivity and how some games leverage that to create real emotion in their players is the greatest reason why video games are an artistic medium.

And a subcategory like "shoot-em ups" is far too broad. Is Doom art? No. Is Bioshock art? A lot of people would say yes. I'm one of them, though not for the same reason most people use. Same applies to action movies. Is Skyline art? I'm gonna go with no. Is Inception? The fact that a game or movie contains shooting or explosions, even in significant amounts, is not sufficiently criteria to examine its artistic merit.

But except for the potential legal implications, the whole thing isn't really that important. Everyone is playing their roles correctly... the older people involved in art are decrying the new form of art that young people like as "not art" and the rebellious new guard is pushing back to prove themselves and by doing so push the medium forward. In a few decades it won't be a question. This basic process has been repeated with new mediums, or sub mediums, over and over again throughout history. It's normal.

The current legal implications, on the other hand, are a little more of an immediate concern. I have no doubt that the Supreme Court will agree with every other lower court decision that has happened in the past few years and strike down the California law as unconstitutional, but in 1973 they made legal government censorship of pornography specifically because they found that it had no artistic merit. So to cast this entire thing as just a bunch of games with a misplaced desire to feel accepted is incorrect as there are very real legal and business implications going on.

As an aside, I don't think QCzar was suggesting anything about a conspiracy by the establishment, or anything else so silly. This is the exact same thing that happened over rock and roll, comic books, post modern art and many many other examples through history. New artistic forms and mediums always need to fight society and/or existing artists for legitimacy. That's just how it seems to work.
 
On the legal side, even if video games aren't art, they are certainly a form of expression and therefore covered by the First Amendment. I mean, if money is free speech then I don't see why a combination of code, artwork, and interactivity shouldn't be.
 
The argument that California is making is that video games, like hardcore pornography, have no artistic merit and are harmful to children (based on, of course, dubious studies). Essentially they're trying to ascribe the same criteria to games as the Miller test and serious artistic merit is part of that.

No one ever called money obscene before. Not in this context anyway. :p
 
The argument that California is making is that video games, like hardcore pornography, have no artistic merit and are harmful to children (based on, of course, dubious studies). Essentially they're trying to ascribe the same criteria to games as the Miller test and serious artistic merit is part of that.

No one ever called money obscene before. Not in this context anyway. :p

Yeah, that's totally insane. Some games may--may--be pornographic. I would hope there is no judge (or jury) stupid enough to classify video games as a group as "obscene," though. Good lord.
 
It's not so much that they're calling them pornographic, as that they're saying violence makes games obscene in the same fashion.

Like I said, every similar law has been struck down in various state courts and I think it's pretty clear how the Supreme Court will rule. But the potential artistic merit of the medium certainly came up in the arguments presented to the court.
 
If torture porn like Saw is protected by the First Amendment it's baffling that anyone would try to say video games aren't. :wtf:
 
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