Victory is Life!

[Jono]

But that isn't entirely what I meant- the Founders aren't going to hold the Jem'Hadar at fault for not conquering the AQ- they did what they were told, with their allies.

You never know, the Founders might decide the Jem'Hadar have passed their used by date and create a new race of soldiers. So there is also the general case of "Victory is life", if the Jem'Hadar can't bring the Founders' victory then their worth to the Founder is nil.

I'm thinking on a smaller scale- if they were given impossible odds, what would be the result of losing? But a Vorta would do it to be a jerk, a Founder would know the Vorta was being idiotic, a Jem'Hadar is always 2 steps ahead of the Vorta so...

If they were given an impossible situation the result would most likely be death. Actually the most likely thing the Founder would do is nothing, the Jem'Hadar are expendable and easily replaceable and wouldn't bat an eyelid (if they had them) at the Vorta executing Jem'Hadar for failure. I don't think we ever saw it happen on screen, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Vorta did chain of command adjustments via executing Jem'Hadar for failing the Founders.

The only time I can actually remember the Founders' executing people for failing and using the fear of death as a motiver is when the Female Founder ordered the Vorta failing to find a cure for her disease to be killed and replaced with new clones.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

Back to the original topic: Is there any point to having morality or ethics? What is the point of that if your civilisation is lying in a heap of rubble.

 

[DevilEyes]

But that isn't entirely what I meant- the Founders aren't going to hold the Jem'Hadar at fault for not conquering the AQ- they did what they were told, with their allies.

You never know, the Founders might decide the Jem'Hadar have passed their used by date and create a new race of soldiers. So there is also the general case of "Victory is life", if the Jem'Hadar can't bring the Founders' victory then their worth to the Founder is nil.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense. "Vistory is life" might have been true of the Jem'Hadars, literally.

 

[PSGarak]

Back to the original topic: Is there any point to having morality or ethics? What is the point of that if your civilisation is lying in a heap of rubble.

Considering that morality and ethics primarily serve as a way of establishing and keeping order in a group, they would have little use in a collapsed civilization, except perhaps as motivation in rebuilding.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

Good point. I hadn't thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense. "Vistory is life" might have been true of the Jem'Hadars, literally.

There is a similar situation in the USA. If a person can't afford health care and they become sick it's game over, they die.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

Back to the original topic: Is there any point to having morality or ethics? What is the point of that if your civilisation is lying in a heap of rubble.

Considering that morality and ethics primarily serve as a way of establishing and keeping order in a group, they would have little use in a collapsed civilization, except perhaps as motivation in rebuilding.

I meant it in the sense that: "What's the point of trying to preserve our morality if it ends up costing us victory?"

Does that explain it better?

 

[Jono]

^ There will be people that believe that it would be a small price to pay and the more desperate the situation the more willing people are to "cross that line". It's a sad fact of war that if you want to win you more often than not have to sacrifice some portion of that.

As for history been written by the victors, it isn't completely true. History is also written by the bystanders.

 

[PSGarak]

Back to the original topic: Is there any point to having morality or ethics? What is the point of that if your civilisation is lying in a heap of rubble.

Considering that morality and ethics primarily serve as a way of establishing and keeping order in a group, they would have little use in a collapsed civilization, except perhaps as motivation in rebuilding.

I meant it in the sense that: "What's the point of trying to preserve our morality if it ends up costing us victory?"

Does that explain it better?

Yes, it does. I suppose in some ways, the answer to that would depend upon how that civilization chose to define victory. If it is solely defined by gaining absolute control and crushing resistance completely, then morality would have very little place in that world-view. The trouble with that is that conquerors will always have neighbors, usually some that could collectively stomp them out if properly motivated.

If they stray too far from how the neighbors view "playing nice" and establish themselves as too much of an overall threat, they will be ruthlessly pursued and warred against, never allowed time to sit for a while and rebuild resources. "Salt the earth" as a strategy overall costs more than it saves.

If, on the other hand, the civilization highly values its morality and ethics to the point that the majority of its citizens would see a collapse or abandonment of such as a complete fall of the civilization itself, then a victory attained by such a violation is hardly a victory at all.

I'll use the US as an example of that. If in the name of safety from terrorists, we abandon every civil liberty, declare martial law, and turn into the next North Korea, we may achieve a higher degree of safety from internal and external attacks, but at what cost? I would never call that a victory, just a goal met at the expense of all sense and reason.

 

[Marie1]

But that isn't entirely what I meant- the Founders aren't going to hold the Jem'Hadar at fault for not conquering the AQ- they did what they were told, with their allies.

You never know, the Founders might decide the Jem'Hadar have passed their used by date and create a new race of soldiers. So there is also the general case of "Victory is life", if the Jem'Hadar can't bring the Founders' victory then their worth to the Founder is nil.

I'm thinking on a smaller scale- if they were given impossible odds, what would be the result of losing? But a Vorta would do it to be a jerk, a Founder would know the Vorta was being idiotic, a Jem'Hadar is always 2 steps ahead of the Vorta so...

If they were given an impossible situation the result would most likely be death. Actually the most likely thing the Founder would do is nothing, the Jem'Hadar are expendable and easily replaceable and wouldn't bat an eyelid (if they had them) at the Vorta executing Jem'Hadar for failure. I don't think we ever saw it happen on screen, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Vorta did chain of command adjustments via executing Jem'Hadar for failing the Founders.

The only time I can actually remember the Founders' executing people for failing and using the fear of death as a motiver is when the Female Founder ordered the Vorta failing to find a cure for her disease to be killed and replaced with new clones.

^ True. Interestingly, the Founders seem more loyal to the Jem'Hadar, not even wanting the Breen to fight alongside them for fear of damaging their morale. I doubt they'll ever decide they Jem'Hadar aren't worthwhile. To do so would mean they'd made an inferior product, they think the Jem'Hadar are the perfect soldiers. They Vorta can suck because they were an original species...

 

[Jono]

It's not surprising that the Founders' would be more trusting of their controlled super-soldiers over the Breen. As for perfect soldiers, they obviously weren't that perfect as the Dominion created a new "superior" version to fight in the Alpha Quadrant.

Executing Jem'Hadar for failure might not be all that effective. That type of policy works best against someone who has a fear of death in such a way that the threat can "inspire" them to do better than their predecessor. The Jem'Hadar readily accept death so they might not be phased by this type of punishment. The Vorta however seem a bit more concerned about not dying.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Vorta's origin story was not true and they were just as "unnatural" as the Jem'Hadar.

 

[Marie1]

True... I just found it odd that they wouldn't want the Breen to fight with them just... to win! Or for less of the own canon-fodder?

I'm not sure about the Vorta... cuz the Jem'Hadar seem like they could be assembled from parts, but the Vorta seem to retain an awful lot that you'd think would be weaknesses...

 

[Jono]

I can't remember it exactly but I'm under the impression the Breen wanted to lead the forces for the final battle instead of taking a back seat to the Jem'Hadar and the Founder granted them joint command.

The only weakness I can really remember the Vorta having is that they have "weak eyes", though apart from when Weyoun said that we never saw a Vorta have issues with their vision. The Jem'Hadar are the ones with the biggest weakness in that they are dependant on ketracel white to survive.

 

[Triskelion]

The Vorta's weakness of aesthetics might have been deliberate, in order to keep them consumed by politics rather than romance. Art is very much an individual expression, dependent on unique perception; except in extreme cases where it's used for say, militant propaganda - something the Founders did not need, having control of their subjects at the genetic level (if such a thing were possible).

To intelligent species deliberately bred without full dimension, the Founders must indeed appear as "supernatural". And they are a metaphor for not a few people in our world, who would relish the chance to do the same if they could - create a society, at the very genetic level if possible, based on artificial constructed reality - with them at the top, of course.

I'd love to see the Federation liberate the Vorta and Jem'Hadar from their genetic deficiencies. Have those species "wake up" and see what's been done to them. Sounds like something Bashir would do, just to be a stinker - with the help of his posse of brainiacs, of course.

 

[DevilEyes]

I'd love to see the Federation liberate the Vorta and Jem'Hadar from their genetic deficiencies. Have those species "wake up" and see what's been done to them. Sounds like something Bashir would do, just to be a stinker - with the help of his posse of brainiacs, of course.

He tried to do that with the Jem'Hadar in "Hipocratic Oath".

It is interesting that the Jem'Hadar seem to need to be physically dependant for complete unquestioning loyalty, while the Founders apparently didn't feel that anything similar was needed with Vorta.

 

[Marie1]

The White isn't really a weakness- they don't eat, sleep, tire- all because of a tiny vial. Needing to sleep and running out of energy are bigger problems. And if they run out, the Jem'Hadar die/kill each other, and more are easy to make.