Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for Sulu.

[Mutara Nebula 1967]

If we accept the Valtrane did die despite his appearance at the end ST:TUC
then shouldn't SULU have been in really hot water...maybe enough to cost him the captaincy.

By disobeying orders and speeding to Khitomer...despite the outcome...these actions led to the death of a crewman...who would still be breathing if Sulu had stayed put.

Not only having implications on his military career but elsewhere.
I don't know if there would be wrongful death lawsuits in the Trek universe but his parents or wife could have a case against Sulu.

Killing Valtrane was a dumb idea and cast a pall over the rousing feel good ending of TUC with Sulu heroiclly charging off to join his former crewmates in the struggle.

 

[exodus]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

Nope, he's one of Kirk's boys and Kirk broke the rules all the time and nothing ever happened.

 

[number6]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

Sulu was punished. He didn't get his own series.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

Remember, the only time we saw Valtane die was in Tuvok's memory. Who's to say Tuvok's mind was at peak efficiency at the time? He was also affected by the 'virus'. Maybe he just forgot or misremembered what really happened?

(Also, Valtane could have been revived on the operating table.)

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

If your one of those people fanatical about cannon, that was his last appearance on screen, who's to say he was not court martialled and thrown out?

 

[Timo]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

There's no real precedent to prosecution over casualties suffered during an unauthorized mission. Kirk lost a bunch in ST2, on a joyride organized to celebrate his birthday, but the issue never arose in his trial. Picard lost Sito Jaxa on a supposedly illegal mission. But starship skippers have typically been credited with broad powers of initiative, and ends almost always appear to justify means. Certainly when "ends" equates to saving the Federation's bacon from the fire, and "means" involves blasting a few baddies to smithereens, which is what Sulu ultimately achieved by his ST6 forays into Klingon space.

Also, as per "Court Martial", it seems to be very bad form to prosecute a starship captain, and Starfleet is ready to bend over backwards to sweep such things under the carpet, if you pardon the acrobatic mixing of metaphors. I seriously doubt Starfleet would have wanted to publicly acknowledge that Sulu's mission against Kang ever happened. (And, yes, we have every reason to think it didn't happen in the fatal way shown in "Flashback", as the defining characteristic of Tuvok's mental illness was to falsely show people in mortal danger.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Frodo Lives]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

I may be wrong Timo, but I believe Kirk's mission to Regula in Wrath of Khan, was actually authorized, in fact ordered by Starfleet Command, over Kirk's protests that all the Enterprise had was 'a boatload of children'. After that, Kirk's mission became simple survival against, well, Khan's wrath.

 

[Timo]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

True enough.

Still, the mission materialized after Kirk had first put himself and the ship in a situation where the mission became a necessity. (Although the idea that Kirk's ship would by sheer coincidence have been the nearest to Regula I was absurd - it sounds more likely that Kirk insisted on getting the mission, despite being quite distant from the laboratory of his old flame.) Starfleet might well also support Sulu's conduct in the "combat mission" that had been forced upon him by his initial, unauthorized decision to go and try free Kirk and McCoy...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kio]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

Nope, he's one of Kirk's boys and Kirk broke the rules all the time and nothing ever happened.

Agreed. The flashback was TOS era and anything might have happened without repercussion.

 

[Timo]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

The TOS era as such wasn't lawless, as shown by Kirk's velvet glove treatment of the Romulans in "Balance of Terror", and the various legal hoops he had to jump to keep his job. But the era of the late TOS movies can indeed be argued to be a "get out of jail card" for our heroes.

Basically, by one interpretation of the Klingon Ambassador's words in ST4 at least, the Federation and the Klingon Empire were at a constant state of war during the movies 4 through 6, and perhaps also before this. Sulu's actions in "Flashback" would have endangered the truce declared for the peace negotiations, or the truce about to be declared for this purpose, but they would not have constituted much of a crime: Kang was an enemy to be defeated, the Klingons holding Kirk and McCoy prisoner a bunch of outlaws to be overcome by force.

Diplomats would see the issue in different light, trying to defeat the Empire by means other than direct assault. But even if Sulu hindered the efforts of the diplomats somewhat, Starfleet probably wouldn't rush to condemning Sulu's actions.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kio]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

The TOS era as such wasn't lawless, as shown by Kirk's velvet glove treatment of the Romulans in "Balance of Terror", and the various legal hoops he had to jump to keep his job.

Maybe. I watched TOS reruns as a kid, and saw Kirk as a drunken slut brawling his way through space, and I mean that in the best possible sense. I've been going through TOS again, very slowly, and so far I haven't had my initial impressions seriously contradicted. People complain about a "reset" button in VOY. I'd say there was a "fuck it" button in TOS. Alien disputes were glossed over and forgotten about, same with Federation directives. Well, at least that's the impression it gives me, I still haven't re-watched all of TOS.

You've made detailed points in your post, but the movies didn't make a huge impression on me.

Diplomats would see the issue in different light, trying to defeat the Empire by means other than direct assault. But even if Sulu hindered the efforts of the diplomats somewhat, Starfleet probably wouldn't rush to condemning Sulu's actions.

That, I agree with.

 

[SeanMcC]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

Valtane's fate was screwed with. So who knows if Sulu caught any shit for it?

Rand's rank was also different. She was a Lt.JG in TUC, but a Lt.Commander in Flashback.

So perhaps Tuvok's memory wasn't entirely accurate.

 

[Timo]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

Yeah. Things more or less wrong with "Flashback":

- Valtane dies (alive at the end of ST6)
- Rand holds LtCmdr rank (Lt(jg) in ST6; too rapid a rise after the ST4 appearance of the character anyway)
- Valtane holds Lt(jg) rank (LtCmdr in ST6)
- Tuvok holds Ensign rank "two months out of the Academy" (Sulu's ship had been out in the sticks for three years straight in ST6; who shuttled Tuvok there?)
- Kirk and McCoy are jailed mere days after the Praxis explosion (ST6 says it took months)
- Tuvok sleeps in full uniform! (granted that he's a freakasaurus, but still)

And of course, Tuvok remembers the details of the Praxis explosion scene wrong, in the sense that there's no time or room for him to bring the tea to Sulu and then fade to the background without being seen in the original ST6 material...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[erastus25]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

Yeah. Things more or less wrong with "Flashback":

- Valtane dies (alive at the end of ST6)
- Rand holds LtCmdr rank (Lt(jg) in ST6; too rapid a rise after the ST4 appearance of the character anyway)
- Valtane holds Lt(jg) rank (LtCmdr in ST6)
- Tuvok holds Ensign rank "two months out of the Academy" (Sulu's ship had been out in the sticks for three years straight in ST6; who shuttled Tuvok there?)
- Kirk and McCoy are jailed mere days after the Praxis explosion (ST6 says it took months)
- Tuvok sleeps in full uniform! (granted that he's a freakasaurus, but still)

And of course, Tuvok remembers the details of the Praxis explosion scene wrong, in the sense that there's no time or room for him to bring the tea to Sulu and then fade to the background without being seen in the original ST6 material...

Timo Saloniemi

It's great that this is all in Tuvok's head so we can just play them off as "bad memory" but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the writers and producers didn't intend for that to be necessary. Same thing with TATV - it's easy to write it off as "that was on the holodeck" but the bottom line is that the episode doesn't fit into the TNG or ENT continuity. I think the lesson is that it's a bad idea to try and fit flashbacks into previously told stories. It also gives me a ton of respect for how seamlessly the DS9 staff managed to fit Trials and Tribbleations into TOS continuity.

PS: sorry if that was a little too OT.

 

[Kpnuts]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

Please! Don't give Takei another excuse to go mouthing off in the media! Three times a month is more than enough!

 

[Kpnuts]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

Oh well never mind. Clearly going on about his sexuality for the 20 billionth time this weekend is perfectly fine.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

If your one of those people fanatical about cannon, that was his last appearance on screen, who's to say he was not court martialled and thrown out?

He vouched for Chakotay when he applied for Starfleet Academy, so Sulu couldn't have been disgraced..

 

[Unicron]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

Sulu was punished. He didn't get his own series.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

There's no real precedent to prosecution over casualties suffered during an unauthorized mission. Kirk lost a bunch in ST2, on a joyride organized to celebrate his birthday, but the issue never arose in his trial.

Uh no, Kirk was on board the Enterprise to preform a command inspection and--presumably--observe the cadets on their training cruise, which doesn't seem out of place since he was overseeing their Kobiashi Maru test. There is nothing in the movie to suggest that this was in any way connected to his birthday other than the fact that he celebrated his birthday just prior to the mission.

The mission to Regula was ordered by Star Fleet Command and Kirk tells Spock that he protested the assignment since they just had a "boatload of Kids" on board. He even initially didn't accept Spock's suggestion that Kirk take command, until Spock pressed the matter and invoked regulations and logic.

 

[Timo]

Re: Valtrane's death in FLASHBACK should have series implication for S

There is nothing in the movie to suggest that this was in any way connected to his birthday other than the fact that he celebrated his birthday just prior to the mission.

Well, Kirk does invite in a bunch of unrelated people like Sulu (who by his own admission is only visiting this rare once) and Uhura, who happen to be his personal friends, then inspect the ship, and then ask Scotty if it wouldn't be a good idea to have a little training cruise - to which the engineer replies with a surprised and delighted "Aye!", probably having originally expected that the inspection would end like most ones do, in approval of the state of readiness without any attempt to put the readiness to operational use.

Starfleet may have sanctioned Kirk's doings, but it seems obvious that Kirk has organized everything specifically to celebrate his birthday as per the doctor's recent orders. And the doctor certainly approves.

Timo Saloniemi