USS Excalibur: NCC-1664 or NCC-1705?

[Lieut. Arex]

The remastered episodes cannot retroactively establish canon for the original series. As no registry numbers were visible for the ships in "The Ultimate Computer", there is no definitive answer to the question, only supposition and personal preference.

 

[MarsWeeps]

The remastered episodes cannot retroactively establish canon for the original series.

Why not? I can understand if the remastered episodes somehow conflicts with the originals (example - changing the Enterprise registry to NCC-1702) but if something couldn't be seen in the original and the remastered version allows it to be seen, I don't see how that violates canon in any way.

Is there a canon "bible" that lists what can and cannot be done?

 

[F. King Daniel]

The remastered episodes cannot retroactively establish canon for the original series. As no registry numbers were visible for the ships in "The Ultimate Computer", there is no definitive answer to the question, only supposition and personal preference.

Yes, they very much can. Canon in an ongoing shared universe like Star Trek is fluid, with countless retcons and rewrites between "The Cage" and the next movie. For example, ST'09 establishes Kirk's dad as first officer of a starship, and according to Nimoy's Spock, he was Jim's inspiration for joining Starfleet. Although never mentioned or thought of in TOS, those new tidbits are part of canon and are "facts" in Trek's universe. Voyager pinned down the end of the TOS 5-year mission as being in 2270. What Sulu did "between scenes" of STVI was told in "Flashback". All 100% canon.

 

[F. King Daniel]

So NCC-1664 is canon.

I haven't seen the remastered episode but I checked YouTube for the remastered shots from The Ultimate Computer and couldn't find any that shows the registry for the Excalibur.

I'll drag out my dvds and check, but the number MAY come from Okuda's notes. if it was on the model, but not seen it's still canon.

It's only canon if it's actually seen or heard.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

The remastered episodes cannot retroactively establish canon for the original series. As no registry numbers were visible for the ships in "The Ultimate Computer", there is no definitive answer to the question, only supposition and personal preference.

Yes, they very much can. Canon in an ongoing shared universe like Star Trek is fluid, with countless retcons and rewrites between "The Cage" and the next movie. For example, ST'09 establishes Kirk's dad as first officer of a starship, and according to Nimoy's Spock, he was Jim's inspiration for joining Starfleet. Although never mentioned or thought of in TOS, those new tidbits are part of canon and are "facts" in Trek's universe. Voyager pinned down the end of the TOS 5-year mission as being in 2270. What Sulu did "between scenes" of STVI was told in "Flashback". All 100% canon.

The '09 film isn't in the same continuity, even in the George Kirk sequences. The sequel will cement that contention, I'll wager, particularly if the rumors of dentated tribbles are to be believed, so referencing it is a non-starter. Later productions may add points of information but cannot alter what is shown. "Flashback" does that with dead/not dead Valtane. As such, its authority when speaking to TUC is suspect.

As for the remastered episodes, they are an alteration of an original work and not authoritative. At best, they are an interesting artistic exercise. If I repaint the Mona Lisa to give her a nose ring, is it now the definitive work? Suppose I've got the rights to release the the the old Batman series on DVD but Nick at Night's gonna show them first. If I replace the Futura with a Tumbler, is that now canon? To cite a real world Trek case: What color is space in the Delta Triangle: Red or black? When "Time Trap" was first shown and then released on video tape, it was red. On the DVD, it's black. Which is canon? Black, because it's on DVD and represents the latest thinking on the show? Why not red? It was on the video tape. Which has primacy? The one originally presented or the one fucked up by someone who thought they knew better? To my mind, it's the original. TOS-R can no more establish Lexington's registry number than it can alter the canonical look of the Woden or the Aurora or establish the Antares was a modified cargo drone.

 

[Dukhat]

The '09 film isn't in the same continuity, even in the George Kirk sequences.

Not quite. While the movie immediately starts with Nero's incursion into 2233, the existence of the Kelvin, George Kirk, Robau, etc. logically occur in the prime timeline before the incursion takes place. The Kelvin didn't just spontaneously pop into existence when Nero came through that black hole. Concurrently, any information that Old Spock relayed to nuKirk about events in the prime timeline (i.e. the "father being his inspiration to join Starfleet" thing) are canon to the prime timeline.

As for the remastered episodes, they are an alteration of an original work and not authoritative. At best, they are an interesting artistic exercise. If I repaint the Mona Lisa to give her a nose ring, is it now the definitive work? Suppose I've got the rights to release the the the old Batman series on DVD but Nick at Night's gonna show them first. If I replace the Futura with a Tumbler, is that now canon? To cite a real world Trek case: What color is space in the Delta Triangle: Red or black? When "Time Trap" was first shown and then released on video tape, it was red. On the DVD, it's black. Which is canon? Black, because it's on DVD and represents the latest thinking on the show? Why not red? It was on the video tape. Which has primacy? The one originally presented or the one fucked up by someone who thought they knew better? To my mind, it's the original. TOS-R can no more establish Lexington's registry number than it can alter the canonical look of the Woden or the Aurora or establish the Antares was a modified cargo drone.

While I understand what you're saying, the short answer is that canon is whatever the person currently in charge of Star Trek says it is. Now, what people wish to believe personally is completely up to them.

However, in the case of TOS-R, IIRC the people in charge of the project made a point that fans are welcome to either accept or deny the changes made. It wasn't their intent to "fuck up" what came before it, but to update the effects for the HD transfer. Me, I personally have a huge issue with the original Constitution class registry numbers being assigned to that wall chart in "Court Martial" thanks to Greg Jein and backed up by Okuda in the Encyclopedia. However, it basically comes down to my beliefs against what the person in charge of canon at the time (Okuda) documented in an official publication. I don't like it, but I respect the person whose job it is to establish this kind of thing, knowing that someone else could very well come along and redact it.

 

[Ian Keldon]

I haven't seen the remastered episode but I checked YouTube for the remastered shots from The Ultimate Computer and couldn't find any that shows the registry for the Excalibur.

I'll drag out my dvds and check, but the number MAY come from Okuda's notes. if it was on the model, but not seen it's still canon.

It's only canon if it's actually seen or heard.

Nope. If it was there, whether we see it clearly or not, it counts.

Not that it matters, because it IS seen.

 

[Ian Keldon]

The remastered episodes cannot retroactively establish canon for the original series. As no registry numbers were visible for the ships in "The Ultimate Computer", there is no definitive answer to the question, only supposition and personal preference.

Yes, they very much can. Canon in an ongoing shared universe like Star Trek is fluid, with countless retcons and rewrites between "The Cage" and the next movie. For example, ST'09 establishes Kirk's dad as first officer of a starship, and according to Nimoy's Spock, he was Jim's inspiration for joining Starfleet. Although never mentioned or thought of in TOS, those new tidbits are part of canon and are "facts" in Trek's universe. Voyager pinned down the end of the TOS 5-year mission as being in 2270. What Sulu did "between scenes" of STVI was told in "Flashback". All 100% canon.

The '09 film isn't in the same continuity, even in the George Kirk sequences. The sequel will cement that contention, I'll wager, particularly if the rumors of dentated tribbles are to be believed, so referencing it is a non-starter. Later productions may add points of information but cannot alter what is shown. "Flashback" does that with dead/not dead Valtane. As such, its authority when speaking to TUC is suspect.

As for the remastered episodes, they are an alteration of an original work and not authoritative. At best, they are an interesting artistic exercise. If I repaint the Mona Lisa to give her a nose ring, is it now the definitive work? Suppose I've got the rights to release the the the old Batman series on DVD but Nick at Night's gonna show them first. If I replace the Futura with a Tumbler, is that now canon? To cite a real world Trek case: What color is space in the Delta Triangle: Red or black? When "Time Trap" was first shown and then released on video tape, it was red. On the DVD, it's black. Which is canon? Black, because it's on DVD and represents the latest thinking on the show? Why not red? It was on the video tape. Which has primacy? The one originally presented or the one fucked up by someone who thought they knew better? To my mind, it's the original. TOS-R can no more establish Lexington's registry number than it can alter the canonical look of the Woden or the Aurora or establish the Antares was a modified cargo drone.

Well you keep telling yourself that. If you want to hold your position as a "personal canon" feel free, but you have no status or standing to summarily declare your position authoritative or binding. Paramount/CBS' opinion as the rights holder is what counts, and their position is clear on the matter.

 

[Dukhat]

Nope. If it was there, whether we see it clearly or not, it counts.

The reused Excelsior model in Encounter at Farpoint had a registry number of NCC-2541 on the hull, but later ship chart displays show NCC-42296.

There were two Melbournes at Wolf 359, an Excelsior class and a Nebula class, both with the exact same registry number.

There was a Miranda class vessel in TNG labeled "Brittain," but officially its name is the Brattain.

There is a ship labelled "U.S.S. Buckner" in DS9, but in dialogue the ship's name is the Centaur.

There is a ship called the Prometheus in VOY with a registry number of NX-59650 on the hull, but its dedication plaque shows NX-74913.

Would you like me to go on?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yes, The '09 film isn't in the same continuity, even in the George Kirk sequences. The sequel will cement that contention, I'll wager, particularly if the rumors of dentated tribbles are to be believed, so referencing it is a non-starter. Later productions may add points of information but cannot alter what is shown. "Flashback" does that with dead/not dead Valtane. As such, its authority when speaking to TUC is suspect.

As for the remastered episodes, they are an alteration of an original work and not authoritative. At best, they are an interesting artistic exercise. If I repaint the Mona Lisa to give her a nose ring, is it now the definitive work? Suppose I've got the rights to release the the the old Batman series on DVD but Nick at Night's gonna show them first. If I replace the Futura with a Tumbler, is that now canon? To cite a real world Trek case: What color is space in the Delta Triangle: Red or black? When "Time Trap" was first shown and then released on video tape, it was red. On the DVD, it's black. Which is canon? Black, because it's on DVD and represents the latest thinking on the show? Why not red? It was on the video tape. Which has primacy? The one originally presented or the one fucked up by someone who thought they knew better? To my mind, it's the original. TOS-R can no more establish Lexington's registry number than it can alter the canonical look of the Woden or the Aurora or establish the Antares was a modified cargo drone.

Canon isn't "original intent". Canon is whatever the latest round of retroactive continuity and rewrites says it is. New canon essentially overwrites old canon. That's why James Kirk's middle initial is T and not R.

Another example is the biggest retcon of them all, Star Trek: Enterprise - which rewrote Trek's past to include cloaking devices and time travel 100 years before Kirk encountered them. Oh yeah, and a famous pioneering, world saving Starship Enterprise captained by the guy who founded the United Federation of Planets.

None of these things affect TOS on it's own, and it's up to each fan what they choose to accept or reject, but in the overall 45-year-old mosaic that is Star Trek, that's how it works.

 

[Timo]

...the model as seen on screen...

...Which has almost nothing to do with the model as built. Which is sort of the whole point. Things that aren't seen aren't real, they are mere speculation. And it doesn't matter if it's Mike Okuda speculating, because he ain't real, either, not by the Star Trek definition.

And no, NCC-1664 cannot be seen onscreen. Not in any aired episode of Star Trek, that is. Screencaps on a web forum don't count.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lieut. Arex]

I'll drag out my dvds and check, but the number MAY come from Okuda's notes. if it was on the model, but not seen it's still canon.

It's only canon if it's actually seen or heard.

Nope. If it was there, whether we see it clearly or not, it counts.

Not that it matters, because it IS seen.

So there's a giant rubber duck on the Enterprise-D. Cool.

 

[Intelligence]

Classic topic ... all those who favour the 16xx for Constitution class vessels even ignore that their main reference, the Jein article, didn't want to have them Constitution class (Mark IX Deep Space Cruiser), but some other class "Mark VIII Interstellar Cruiser".

 

[Ian Keldon]

Nope. If it was there, whether we see it clearly or not, it counts.

The reused Excelsior model in Encounter at Farpoint had a registry number of NCC-2541 on the hull, but later ship chart displays show NCC-42296.

Retconning a production mistake. No contradiction there.

There were two Melbournes at Wolf 359, an Excelsior class and a Nebula class, both with the exact same registry number.

Production mistake.

There was a Miranda class vessel in TNG labeled "Brittain," but officially its name is the Brattain.

Another mistake (the former spelling) that is fixed.

There is a ship labelled "U.S.S. Buckner" in DS9, but in dialogue the ship's name is the Centaur.

See above.

There is a ship called the Prometheus in VOY with a registry number of NX-59650 on the hull, but its dedication plaque shows NX-74913.

Unfixed mistake/contradiction.

Would you like me to go on?

You haven't even started. Nothing above changes in any way shape or form the canon fact that the CG model for the Excalibur in the Remastered ep is clearly 1664, as shown on screen and per the production notes from Okuda. There is nothing to show that there has been any sort of mistake, nor is there any canon piece of information to contradict it or make any sort of change to it.

Thus the registry is NCC-1664.

Game, set and match.

 

[Ian Keldon]

...the model as seen on screen...

...Which has almost nothing to do with the model as built. Which is sort of the whole point. Things that aren't seen aren't real, they are mere speculation. And it doesn't matter if it's Mike Okuda speculating, because he ain't real, either, not by the Star Trek definition.

And no, NCC-1664 cannot be seen onscreen. Not in any aired episode of Star Trek, that is. Screencaps on a web forum don't count.

Timo Saloniemi

Ok, this has gone on long enough. The screencaps come FROM the ep as presented. You're just trying to nitpick and split hairs to avoid accepting canon fact where it contradicts your strange interpretation of canon as something you get to twist however way you want.

Okuda did not "speculate". He, in his capacity as advisor to and part of the remastering team chose to use the 1664 number. The FX team did as they were told and put the number ON the model, and the result was presented.

GAME OVER. It was built that way, it aired that way, and it's canon.

 

[Ian Keldon]

It's only canon if it's actually seen or heard.

Nope. If it was there, whether we see it clearly or not, it counts.

Not that it matters, because it IS seen.

So there's a giant rubber duck on the Enterprise-D. Cool.

Don't YOU start. Production jokes are of course not considered part of the canon, even if aired, and are not intended to be thus considered.

That is a far different thing than a canon detail such as a registry number, and you know it.

Your statement is the sort of pedantic nonsense that royally POs me about some debaters.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Classic topic ... all those who favour the 16xx for Constitution class vessels even ignore that their main reference, the Jein article, didn't want to have them Constitution class (Mark IX Deep Space Cruiser), but some other class "Mark VIII Interstellar Cruiser".

Utterly irrelevant to whether or not the number was used in the final ep as presented. It was. It's canon.

 

[Timo]

The screencaps come FROM the ep as presented.

They don't. They come from the anal end of a process of enhancement that wasn't part of the episode and was never seen onscreen.

Pretending that NCC-1664 is visible onscreen is pretty much the same thing as saying that Picard is yelling "WTF is this shit?" in this scene that did air:

http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/121181-/wtf_picard-468x.jpg

We have "photographic proof" of it happening, after all...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ian Keldon]

The screencaps come FROM the ep as presented.

They don't. They come from the anal end of a process of enhancement that wasn't part of the episode and was never seen onscreen.

So now you are saying CBS never aired or sold Remastered eps? Funny, if they didn't, where did the screen caps come from?

Your credibility has hit rock bottom, and started digging.

Pretending that NCC-1664 is visible onscreen

No one is "pretending" anything. It IS visible in the screencaps, and is confirmed by production notes by the supervisor of the CREATION of the footage from which the caps were taken.

Game over, Timo. Time for you to go home.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Your credibility has hit rock bottom, and started digging.

Pretending that NCC-1664 is visible onscreen

No one is "pretending" anything. It IS visible in the screencaps, and is confirmed by production notes by the supervisor of the CREATION of the footage from which the caps were taken.

Game over, Timo. Time for you to go home.

And time for you to get off your authoritarian horse and show a little humility. You're treading awfully close to a trolling warning. One more smart-ass remark like that above and it will be yours.