Using English on TBBS

[Deckerd]

The original word was swine, as in swineherd. A pig was the baby. When that word started to be used for the adults, there had to be a new name for the babies, hence piglets. These have no resemblance to squiglets, which are something different altogether. Clear?

 

[scotpens]

. . . My English is pretty decent but I'm not delusional. I think the more you learn about a language the more you realize that you don't quite grasp all the intricacies. Hidden meanings, slight differences in tone... all that stuff.

And then there are the idioms and colloquialisms that can easily confuse someone trying to learn a language. I recall one non-native-English speaker who meant to write that something-or-other couldn’t “cut the mustard” — but instead he wrote “cut the cheese.” That has a completely different meaning!

 

[rhubarbodendron]

I think the more you learn about a language the more you realize that you don't quite grasp all the intricacies. Hidden meanings, slight differences in tone... all that stuff. [...] Language is important to me so I tend to get annoyed if I fail to make a point exactly the way I want to.

Amen to that, sister! I couldn't have put it remotely as good.

It's probably why I really enjoy discussing in German cause there's hardly any other language that is as exact as German. Whereas for poetry I really enjoy Italian.

But English is better singable (pardon this word-monster). Most European languages - especially the German one - are rather staccato whereas English is legato and therefore rolls off the tongue easier. It's a very good language for poetry and songs imho.

In fact... it's my fifth language. So yeah, you're all very welcome to switch to German, Italian or French. Just don't try Latin please.

Impressive! Which is your native language?

 

[TerokNor]

But English is better singable (pardon this word-monster). Most European languages - especially the German one - are rather staccato whereas English is legato and therefore rolls off the tongue easier. It's a very good language for poetry and songs imho.

Hmm, I don´t really agree...I mean with songs, ok, that might be...but poetry... Guess it did not come from nowhere that at least in the past (before WW2) the Germans were called the folk of poets and thinker. There are beautiful german poems in existance, that read not harsh, but have a tender melody to them.


TerokNor

 

[danellis]

Interestingly, in English we made everyone a stranger. It says a lot about us as a culture.

Perhaps because of speaking only English I don't understand what you mean by this. Would you mind explaining?

A funny story- When I studied in London, one evening I was chatting up a Brazilian girl. I've studied a bit of Spanish and with the help of some beer I was feeling pretty confident. Turns out I understood her Portuguese just fine, but she insisted that I speak English instead of Spanish.

I had a similar experience on a university trip to Nimes. I was trying to chat up a local girl but my French was good enough to fluently say I didn't speak French, while her English was good enough to fluently say she didn't speak English. We muddled along for maybe half an hour, both using some bizarre thing that was probably 75% our own language with a funny accent and the rest the other person's language!!

I'd love to learn another language, after all, "to posses another language is to posses another soul." Sadly it's not something I've ever had the head for.

dJE

 

[Count Zero]

Interestingly, in English we made everyone a stranger. It says a lot about us as a culture.

Perhaps because of speaking only English I don't understand what you mean by this. Would you mind explaining?

There used to be two words to address people: thou and you. Thou was used to address a single person in an informal way while you served to address either a group of people or a single person in a polite, formal way, e.g. if you didn't know the person. (That won't help you, but it's basically like du and Sie in German.)
However, thou went out of style and we're all addressing each other in a formal way, as you would a stranger.

 

[Trilliam]

deleted

 

[TerokNor]

Interestingly, in English we made everyone a stranger. It says a lot about us as a culture.

Perhaps because of speaking only English I don't understand what you mean by this. Would you mind explaining?

There used to be two words to address people: thou and you. Thou was used to address a single person in an informal way while you served to address either a group of people or a single person in a polite, formal way, e.g. if you didn't know the person. (That won't help you, but it's basically like du and Sie in German.)
However, thou went out of style and we're all addressing each other in a formal way, as you would a stranger.

*looks surprizes* Really? I always though you would be equal to "du", so the informal way and therefore much more personal then "sie" in German.
I love it when these old words show up in stories and poems, but find it hard to read. For example:

"Listening to celestial lays,
Bending thy unclouded gaze
On the pure and living light,
Thou art blest, Aslauga´s Knight!

What stands the thy for? Dein/ yours?

TerokNor

 

[MacLeod]

^true it's not a word in common usage, but in certain respect it might be used as slang for a thousand.

 

[Count Zero]

*looks surprizes* Really? I always though you would be equal to "du", so the informal way and therefore much more personal then "sie" in German.

Well, nowadays it is. As there is no distinction between formal and informal form of address you end up addressing people in an informal way, but also in a formal way, if you think about it. The latter is what Myasishchev was getting at.

"Listening to celestial lays,
Bending thy unclouded gaze
On the pure and living light,
Thou art blest, Aslauga´s Knight!

What stands the thy for? Dein/ yours?

Yes. Shakespeare also uses "thine", like this: "This above all: to thine own self be true. And it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man." I really like that English still has noticeable declension and conjugation in that time. It's very close to German in syntax and grammar and that's why I find it easy to understand but I can imagine it might actually be harder for native speakers, ironically enough.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

*looks surprizes* Really? I always though you would be equal to "du", so the informal way and therefore much more personal then "sie" in German.

If you change the pronunciation of "thou," so that it no longer sounds like "thau" but like "thu," you can hear the common origin. "Th" was replaced by "d" in most Germanic languages, excepting English, Icelandic, and Faroese.

Hmm, I don´t really agree...I mean with songs, ok, that might be...but poetry... Guess it did not come from nowhere that at least in the past (before WW2) the Germans were called the folk of poets and thinker. There are beautiful german poems in existance, that read not harsh, but have a tender melody to them.

That's not even necessarily true about music. I mean...Beethoven's 9th...

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The interesting thing was just having "you" originated as an effort to refer to everyone formally. Now, it almost seems rude to use "you" and there's certainly some desire to create a new you plural, indicating that people have forgotten this origin.

 

[RegFan]

One thing I have wondered about is if synonyms confuse people for whom English is not a native language. For example, as a child I raised pigs. In my teens I sold hogs. When I went to college, I left the swine business.

Synonyms have confused me a bit, though the use of prepositions and articles are what I've found the hardest to learn. For example, there's only one word in Finnish for tall and long. I remember saying long when I should have said tall. My English teacher corrected me and I don't remember repeating that mistake.

In fact, I've experienced confusion for the opposite reason. When I first started learning English, I wondered how English-speakers manage with only one word for can, since Finnish has two (voida means "to be physically able to" and osata "to have the skills to").

 

[scotpens]

. . . Most European languages - especially the German one - are rather staccato whereas English is legato and therefore rolls off the tongue easier. It's a very good language for poetry and songs imho.

The rhythms of spoken English, along with its rich vocabulary, make it a good language for poetry and song lyrics. The one disadvantage is that it’s not a particularly good language for rhymes (compared with, say, the Romance languages). That’s why so much of English poetry is written in blank verse, and why you hear the same tired rhymes over and over again in popular songs.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

One thing I have wondered about is if synonyms confuse people for whom English is not a native language. For example, as a child I raised pigs. In my teens I sold hogs. When I went to college, I left the swine business.

Synonyms have confused me a bit, though the use of prepositions and articles are what I've found the hardest to learn. For example, there's only one word in Finnish for tall and long. I remember saying long when I should have said tall. My English teacher corrected me and I don't remember repeating that mistake.

In fact, I've experienced confusion for the opposite reason. When I first started learning English, I wondered how English-speakers manage with only one word for can, since Finnish has two (voida means "to be physically able to" and osata "to have the skills to").

I had a problem with Italian confusing basso (short as in not tall) with corto (short as in not long). It's a weird how languages divide up words between what needs two words and what doesn't.

 

[scotpens]

The interesting thing was just having "you" originated as an effort to refer to everyone formally. Now, it almost seems rude to use "you" and there's certainly some desire to create a new you plural, indicating that people have forgotten this origin.

There’s already a second person plural pronoun — “you all” or “y’all.” But it’s generally used only in the American South.

And there’s “you lot,” which is mainly British.

Don’t know what you mean by rude, though.

. . . there's only one word in Finnish for tall and long. I remember saying long when I should have said tall. My English teacher corrected me and I don't remember repeating that mistake.

And to confuse things further . . .

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFL047fmsgg[/yt]

In fact, I've experienced confusion for the opposite reason. When I first started learning English, I wondered how English-speakers manage with only one word forcan, since Finnish has two ( voida means "to be physically able to" and osata "to have the skills to").

That’s interesting — a nuance of meaning that doesn’t exist in English.

Native English speakers often informally use the auxiliary verb can (meaning ability to do something) instead of may (meaning permission to do something), e.g., “Can I make a left turn here?”

Yes, you can make a left turn, but you’ll get a ticket!

 

[Jim Gamma]

That’s interesting — a nuance of meaning that doesn’t exist in English.

Native English speakers often informally use the auxiliary verb can (meaning ability to do something) instead of may (meaning permission to do something), e.g., “Can I make a left turn here?”

Yes, you can make a left turn, but you’ll get a ticket!

Yeah, my school's English teachers (native Brit here) all used to go ape over that one.

That, and the use of "nice" - apparently it's not descriptive enough! :-p

May I turn the subject about-face a little, and comment on native English-speakers' use of foreign languages?

I had a Norwegian friend when I was about 16, and so I started learning a little Norwegian from her. I then went to Norway to work as a summer-student for nine weeks when I was around 20, and tried to show off my Norwegian skills. Not ONE of the Norwegians I spoke to wanted to talk to me in Norwegian, because they all wanted to practice their English!

Even more ironic, I was waiting at a train stop, someone asked me in Norwegian which platform they needed for Trondheim trains, so I told them, and they asked what time the next one was - at speed. I said I didn't understand, did they understand English? They turned out to be British.

I speak French semi-regularly because I communicate with a French supplier to my organisation. Formal communication must be in English, but I'll often shoot a quick e-mail in French just to practise - either giving a basic request or comment, or saying thanks - they don't mind, and in fact, I think they quite like it.

I also know enough Spanish to get by, as long as people talk to me SLOWLY. And yes, Spaniards speak speedily. I tried to chat to a co-worker in Spanish, he just blew me away with his speed.

I studied Italian for a year at school as well, but most of my vocabulary is mixed with Spanish, and I actually got away with using the Spanish word "pero" (but) in my exam, as it means "however" in Italian.

I also love looking up origins of words. Knowing something about how a word is constructed can help you work out what it's likely to be in a similar language - such as the Spanish for "then/next" (as in "and then, something else happened") is "despues", and a friend once forgot this, so used "consequentamente" (consequently) instead.

This post seems to have expanded drastically, so I'll sign off here...

 

[Deckerd]

The interesting thing was just having "you" originated as an effort to refer to everyone formally. Now, it almost seems rude to use "you" and there's certainly some desire to create a new you plural, indicating that people have forgotten this origin.

Not sure that's right. Almost all of the changes in English are due to usage. There is little if any evidence of a philosophy behind changes in usage. Usually pockets of changes in the meaning of a word happen either by misunderstanding its meaning or because it suited some other way. The change in meaning then spreads. In the same way the loss of conjugations and declensions happened. There was no 'effort' behind it.

 

[rhubarbodendron]

I had a Norwegian friend when I was about 16, and so I started learning a little Norwegian from her. [...] I speak French semi-regularly because I communicate with a French supplier to my organisation. [...] I also know enough Spanish to get by, as long as people talk to me SLOWLY. [...] I studied Italian for a year at school as well

Your German isn't all that bad either, judging by your SMS

 

[Myasishchev]

The interesting thing was just having "you" originated as an effort to refer to everyone formally. Now, it almost seems rude to use "you" and there's certainly some desire to create a new you plural, indicating that people have forgotten this origin.

Over my dead body. There's no reason to have a formal system of address. It's a horrible thing.

Though it is interesting that the popular appreciation of the two forms has flipped, and a lot of people think "thou" is formal. This, of course, is the fault of the King James Bible; "thou" was used with God, but God is supposed to be an intimate.