Using Deepfake in Trek... Yes or no?

[IMC Headquarters]

Poor Sebastian Shaw was Deepfaked out of existence in the Special Edition of Return of the Jedi. Now I wouldn't want that to happen to any original actor from any Trek series.

I'm quite okay with rotoscoping current players into past stuff when it gives them something new and meaningful to play with. Like "Trials and Tribble-ations", a masterpiece in fusion. But I believe an extra or two was removed to fit in Bashir and O'Brien. Now, did that leave those background artists without a slight bump in income because they were removed? I don't know. I hope everyone got something for the archival footage used, even if they were removed to accommodate the live actors.

One grey area I see is Odo and non-humans. If Deep Space Nine ever gets complete remastering, will Odo get an upgrade in shapeshifting visuals? Will Odo himself be imbued with new skin texture to supplement the prosthetics and makeup? In fact, will any of the alien races be given new layers of digital makeup to give them a more organic look? Will estates have to approve the changes before the designs are finalized?

They could all have new, exciting renders, but the fact remains, for the departed actors, they are unable to approve of the alterations to the characters they created through their performances. Should their estates grant permission? Ultimately, it is up to them.

Again, when I see de-aged actors on screen, I know I'm watching technical wizardry and taken right out of the story. And when it comes to Star Trek, that's one universe I don't want to be pulled away from once I'm in it.

 

[Yistaan]

Again, when I see de-aged actors on screen, I know I'm watching technical wizardry and taken right out of the story. And when it comes to Star Trek, that's one universe I don't want to be pulled away from once I'm in it.

It's not noticeable to people unless they already know, and I've seen that in person because a certain CGI deaged character showed up on Disney's Boba Fett recently and my wife, who doesn't know Star Wars details, didn't notice anything wrong with him.

 

[IMC Headquarters]

It's not noticeable to people unless they already know, and I've seen that in person because a certain CGI deaged character showed up on Disney's Boba Fett recently and my wife, who doesn't know Star Wars details, didn't notice anything wrong with him.

True. And I noticed said de-aged character, and felt weirded out. But that's just me.

 

[jackoverfull]

Hmmm...and so I should believe that this tech won't be abused by using actor's likenesses because...because it's never been done before.

you are comparing the action of criminals to those of legitimate companies with money and reputations to lose.

Therefore we should absolutely trust in this technology and have no reservations what so ever.

that’s not what I wrote.

Seriously, with all due respect, I don't trust it. You seemed convinced that my reservations will go away because there are some legal protections but they are not enough.

oh no, I’m convinced that you won’t change your position until death. But your children will consider your position outdated. And if not then their children. This is how progress works: people don’t change their mind, people die and new generations have moved on.

 

[fireproof78]

you are comparing the action of criminals to those of legitimate companies with money and reputations to lose.

I am comparing the actions of individuals to other individuals. None of which I trust. Not sure why companies get a free pass here.

oh no, I’m convinced that you won’t change your position until death. But your children will consider your position outdated. And if not then their children. This is how progress works: people don’t change their mind, people die and new generations have moved on.

Insult accepted.

Thank you. I will continue on my "outdated" way while people accept this technology without fear of the consequences.

 

[jackoverfull]

am comparing the actions of individuals to other individuals. None of which I trust. Not sure why companies get a free pass here

they don’t. They can be sued and held accountable. It’s not hard to understand.

Insult accepted.

Thank you. I will continue on my "outdated" way while people accept this technology without fear of the consequences.

it’s not meant as an insult. But you are clearly too sensitive on a topic that clearly scares you a lot.

And no, people fear this technology a lot and for good reasons, as you would have been able to read in this very topic if you weren’t too occupied in putting words in other people’s mouths’.

 

[fireproof78]

they don’t. They can be sued and held accountable. It’s not hard to understand.

It isn't hard to understand. It is more difficult to trust.

it’s not meant as an insult. But you are clearly too sensitive on a topic that clearly scares you a lot.

And no, people fear this technology a lot and for good reasons, as you would have been able to read in this very topic if you weren’t too occupied in putting words in other people’s mouths’.

Allow me to extremely blunt-the attitude presented, at least to me, is one of "This is the future, suck it up and deal with it."

Am I wrong?

I don't fear the technology. I don't trust it and there is a difference. I don't trust the people to respect personal autonomy and the ability to make choice about acting within the Star Trek sphere. This has zero-zip-nada-zilch to do with other misapplications of the tech, i.e. political gain.

I don't fear the technology. I don't trust it. And I hate even more feeling like I am misheard and told this is the way about technology. That's what gets under my skin. Not some nebulous fear of technology.

 

[IMC Headquarters]

I should state for the record here that I appreciate what Picard did for Brent Spiner when it de-aged Data. It fit in the context of the story and was tastefully done. I knew it was a special effect, but exceptionally presented. And it was all Spiner shining through.

Would I want to see Shatner or Takei digitally de-aged? Hell no.

 

[Yistaan]

I mean, if the people being recreated or their estates are ok with deepfake tech and actors see that money going to their descendants after they're gone, then I don't see any issues.

Will there be illegal misuse? Of course. There's illegal misuse for every new technology that comes. But you don't ban the internet just because of some bad actors. The people involved file complaints through the proper legal channels and we deal with that as it happens.

 

[fireproof78]

I mean, if the people being recreated or their estates are ok with deepfake tech and actors see that money going to their descendants after they're gone, then I don't see any issues.

Will there be illegal misuse? Of course. There's illegal misuse for every new technology that comes. But you don't ban the internet just because of some bad actors. The people involved file complaints through the proper legal channels and we deal with that as it happens.

It would be nice if we were proactive with this new tech instead reactive when it comes to legal protections. I am not calling for a blanket ban but if the tech is to be used it better be for a darn good reason.

Resurrecting the dead for a one off story is not a good enough reason, for me.

 

[jackoverfull]

Allow me to extremely blunt-the attitude presented, at least to me, is one of "This is the future, suck it up and deal with it."

Am I wrong?

a bit bluntly worded, but pretty much. I don’t see what any of us can do to stop this kind of thing, honestly, like it or not.

Resurrecting the dead for a one off story is not a good enough reason, for me.

it is for them, though. Carrie Fisher approved the use of her image in rogue one and signed a contract to have it used again if she died before finishing the last trilogy, as it happened. Mark Hamill even actively helped in recreating young Luke in the mandalorian. Majel Barret went trough to the then-tedious process to record phonemes so that her voice could be duplicated after her death (and they aren’t even using it!), for example.

For many artists one of the biggest ambitions is leaving a lasting legacy. We’re here in a forum dedicated to an ongoing series that has continued for some 30 years after its original creator’s death and we still remember his name because it endures. This is just another way to have that kind of legacy, at least for some. Others can easily say they don’t want to and they won’t (legally…but we already have illegal uses of images anyway, this is nothing new).

If you really don’t like this to happen I guess you should work to change the law to forbid it…But you probably know that this kind of ban never works.

 

[Yistaan]

Majel Barret went trough to the then-tedious process to record phonemes so that her voice could be duplicated after her death (and they aren’t even using it!), for example.

For many artists one of the biggest ambitions is leaving a lasting legacy. We’re here in a forum dedicated to an ongoing series that has continued for some 30 years after its original creator’s death and we still remember his name because it endures. This is just another way to have that kind of legacy, at least for some. Others can easily say they don’t want to and they won’t (legally…but we already have illegal uses of images anyway, this is nothing new).

If you really don’t like this to happen I guess you should work to change the law to forbid it…But you probably know that this kind of ban never works.

They probably put Majel through that for nothing. Computer AI is doing Mark Hamill's young voice without him needing to do anything like that from what I've read.

 

[jackoverfull]

They probably put Majel through that for nothing. Computer AI is doing Mark Hamill's young voice without him needing to do anything like that from what I've read.

mark did his own “young” voice on the mandalorian.

No idea if that’s true for his most recent appearance as well or if it’s all computer-generated as you wrote.

 

[fireproof78]

a bit bluntly worded, but pretty much. I don’t see what any of us can do to stop this kind of thing, honestly, like it or not.

And that's fine.

At least acknowledge that I don't like it and demonstrate a fraction of respect for an opinion for personal dislike, instead of calling it "outdated.". Acknowledgement means more than problem solving.

 

[jackoverfull]

But yes, newer generation synthesised voices are really impressive…And I suspect that future ones will be even more so.

 

[jackoverfull]

And that's fine.

At least acknowledge that I don't like it and demonstrate a fraction of respect for an opinion for personal dislike, instead of calling it "outdated.". Acknowledgement means more than problem solving.

sorry, I’m not following here…I understand why you don’t like it, I didn’t mean any disrespect. I was just stating that things are moving fast and we can’t really stop them.

By the way, I’ve been studying early history of audio recording for one of my university classes and the parallels are uncanny. Many people one hundred years ago found music records “wrong”and “disrespectful” and thought that they would bring the end to music performances.

A couple of decades later the same applied to layering…and then synthesisers.
Nowadays…all these things are a matter of fact. And concerts still exist, just like cinema and TV didn’t destroy theater.

 

[fireproof78]

sorry, I’m not following here…I understand why you don’t like it, I didn’t mean any disrespect. I was just stating that things are moving fast and we can’t really stop them.

By the way, I’ve been studying early history of audio recording for one of my university classes and the parallels are uncanny. Many people one hundred years ago found music records “wrong”and “disrespectful” and thought that they would bring the end to music performances.

A couple of decades later the same applied to layering…and then synthesisers.
Nowadays…all these things are a matter of fact. And concerts still exist, just like cinema and TV didn’t destroy theater.

That's fine. I'm not worried about facts. Just stating a feeling.

 

[Turtletrekker]

They probably put Majel through that for nothing. Computer AI is doing Mark Hamill's young voice without him needing to do anything like that from what I've read.

Well, yes and no. It is true that Mark Hamill did not have to do any voice work for The Book of Boba Fett, but that is young Mark Hamill's voice, obtained from interviews and several books on tape that he narrated back in the day. The sound designers took it from there.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

For me it comes down to something that’s exemplified in Strange New Worlds. I don’t think there’s a chance Strange New Worlds would be happening right now if they’d chosen to use deepfake technology to give Jeffrey Hunter a cameo in Discovery.

‪‪I would rather studios recast roles, so that more movies and shows can give new performers a chance to shine and expand stories, instead of repurposing old audio, and trying to simulate someone else’s performance. But that’s just me.

 

[fireproof78]

‪‪I would rather studios recast roles, so that more movies and shows can give new performers a chance to shine and expand stories, instead of repurposing old audio, and trying to simulate someone else’s performance. But that’s just me.

I would be inclined to agree. It's a similar thing that I think with a lot of different actor types, from voice actors to dwarves who are largely being left behind in favor of CGI resizing, more prominent actors lending their voices in all films, and basically avoiding recasting altogether. It's an odd thing to see.