US fans - Sherlock Tonight

[Professor Zoom]

^^^Sorry, you're still wrong.

It's almost like it were a matter of opinion or something.

No, this isn't. It is a matter of opinion whether the movie artistic success hinges on a valid treatment of Watson. Curiously no one has disagreed with me, but vainly tried to argue facts instead, like Watson murdered the cabbie, or ignored facts, like Watson could not have made the shot anyhow.

On reflection, it occurs to me that no one should disagree with me about the importance of the Watson character, since this movie is largely about how Watson and Holmes become "friends." Frankly, I think the cynics who don't believe Watson could be a friend because he's a good man should have just left out Watson completely. That would have been both bolder and more honest.

Frankly, praising a movie that depends upon a physical impossibility shows a blinkered determination to join the chorus.

Wait. SERIOUSLY? You are basing your opinion on TV Physics?

MOST OF THE THINGS IN TV AND MOVIES wouldn't really work in the real world.

People aren't disagreeing with you, because your position isn't really worth arguing over. You think the WHOLE show hinges on whether or not a fictional character could make a fictional shot.

Personally, I think the show is fantastic and the relationship between Watson and Holmes was exciting, mysterious, and true. I look forward to the BBC to continuing to make the show for YEARS.

 

[Australis]

^ Me too!

 

[RJDiogenes]

Well, your answer doesn't convince me. If he looked across the alley and saw the serial killer about to shoot or stab Holmes, there would be no problem; but all he saw was Holmes looking quizzically at a pill. Since this was unquestionably the serial killer and since Holmes is a known quantity to the police, and since Watson presumably has a good reputation with the military, this is obviously a highly questionable action for them to cover it up.

At that point, although it was patently clear to Watson that this man was the killer and that Holmes' life may be in danger, all they really had him on was kidnapping, considering the victims took their own lives.

I suppose Watson felt he had no choice but to shoot him to save Holmes, but that ultimately it might be viewed as murder, since the "killer" might not be technically guilty of homicide, and in fact a court may consider that Watson killed a man to prevent Holmes from killing himself.

That's kind of what I'm saying. Plus the fact that from Watson's perspective it must have just looked like Holmes was studying a pill-- if he could even know if was a pill. Very dicey. It's consistent with the "oh, fuck it, just shoot him and let God sort it out" tough-guy attitude of contemporary fiction, but inconsistent enough with the original Watson to consider this a completely different character.

 

[Pingfah]

I do agree they were on shaky ground, I think you were probably right when you suggested that maybe the writers dropped the ball and didn't consider that Watson wouldn't really have had enough information to make the call. The tone didn't seem to me to be conveying a gung-ho attitude towards casual murder, I think the writers intended for Watson to feel it was necessary.

If you can accept that, then the reasons why they covered it up make justifiable sense.

It didnt spoil the whole thing for me though, for the most part the deductive sequences were very well planned, the performances felt real, and the show whipped along at a good pace and made me laugh out loud on several occasions at some of the one liners.

The next 2 episodes are really good as well in my opinion, I don't know if they have aired yet, but I would recommend sticking with it if you can get past the rebootyness and take it for what it is.

 

[Owain Taggart]

I came in on the second episode, which probably wasn't the best introduction, which tainted my feeling of the series. After watching the rest, however, I felt that it was because the 2nd had less of everything that made Sherlock Holmes in general feel iconic. It almost felt like it didn't belong.

I do admit, it's a great experiment that they've done. It's certainly not perfect and I still dislike some of the things they've done, but I believe I was too harsh on it. At least it's fun if you can look past its faults. It's not easy updating something like this, bringing something 100 years forward, but I think they did an Ok job considering. It makes me wonder how they're going to interpret some of the other stories, as some of the storylines directly relate to the goings-on of the times it was written in. Or if we're going to get something similar to the Reichenbach Falls scene. I read a book once that described how he came to outsmart Moriarty, climaxing to that famous scene, and explaining what he was doing during his "death", by travelling around using a disguise and a different name, and then resurfacing when he felt sure the world needed him.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^ He traveled around incognito as a Norwegian named Sigerson, or some similar name.

I do agree they were on shaky ground, I think you were probably right when you suggested that maybe the writers dropped the ball and didn't consider that Watson wouldn't really have had enough information to make the call. The tone didn't seem to me to be conveying a gung-ho attitude towards casual murder, I think the writers intended for Watson to feel it was necessary.

If you can accept that, then the reasons why they covered it up make justifiable sense.

It didnt spoil the whole thing for me though, for the most part the deductive sequences were very well planned, the performances felt real, and the show whipped along at a good pace and made me laugh out loud on several occasions at some of the one liners.

The next 2 episodes are really good as well in my opinion, I don't know if they have aired yet, but I would recommend sticking with it if you can get past the rebootyness and take it for what it is.

I do plan to watch the others if I can. I'm not sure when they're on. Given that it should be easy to trace that bullet and Lestrade would expect Holmes to be able to-- and want to-- solve the mystery of the shooter, I'm wondering they will follow up on that. Maybe they are saving it for the next season.

 

[Owain Taggart]

^^ He traveled around incognito as a Norwegian named Sigerson, or some similar name.

Yep, that's it. I couldn't remember the name. Anyhow, this book lays it all out

 

[RJDiogenes]

Now that you mention it, I think I read a review of that book once.

 

[God Magnus]

I finally saw the first movie today and wow, I was floored by how well this was done. The story moved along at an amazing pace, the dialogue was fantastic and while this is modern London, it still evoked a lot of the feeling that other Holmes films/series have done (thanks in part to a lot of the old architecture being featured along with the new).

I loved some of the smaller lines that were thrown out as homages but altered a bit (the "The game is on!" worked well for me).

I'm going to DVR the other two and if they're anywhere near as good as the first, this is going to be a no brainer Blu-Ray purchase.

 

[Samurai8472]

I got a real classic sherlock moment vibe when Sherlock said "The game is on" then hailed a taxi.

It's everything that makes Sherlock Sherlock only now it's modernized.

The Taxi could have been a carriage

 

[Christopher]

"The Blind Banker": Interesting choice of title, in that it's more figurative (referring to the paint sprayed across the eyes of the bank founder's portrait) than having anything really to do with the case. As for the case itself, it seemed to borrow elements from "The Dancing Men" (in that it revolved around cracking a code, although they replaced the original's simple substitution cipher with a book cipher) and maybe just a bit from "The Creeping Man" (which also involved a mystery of how someone could climb up to an upstairs window -- the answer being possibly the silliest idea in the entire Holmes canon). Not a particularly impressive mystery; locked-room murders are old hat, and some elements were predictable. (For instance, I anticipated what happened with the crossbow bolt in the climax.)

It was okay overall -- and it had a hot Asian woman in it, always a plus -- but I had one very large problem with it. Namely, I disliked the way it portrayed Sherlock and John as being almost completely out of touch with each other. Sherlock not paying attention to what John said or did or even whether he was home; John standing outside griping, oblivious to Sherlock being attacked; etc. The essence of Holmes and Watson is their friendship, their bond of trust and mutual reliance, the deep respect and affinity the two men have for each other despite their great differences. True, Holmes could be a difficult and high-maintenance friend for Watson, but the friendship was genuine and mutual. There was none of that in evidence here. Both men were totally insensitive to each other, getting along so poorly that it wasn't convincing that they'd be working together at all. The friendship is the most pivotal element to the whole thing and the writer totally missed it here.

I'd heard that this episode was the weak link in the season, and I can see why. Hopefully that means next week's will be better.

 

[Agent Richard07]

^ I thought you and Owain had seen all three. The second episode is definately not a good introduction and the first one is my favorite.

 

[Professor Zoom]

"The Blind Banker": Interesting choice of title, in that it's more figurative (referring to the paint sprayed across the eyes of the bank founder's portrait) than having anything really to do with the case. As for the case itself, it seemed to borrow elements from "The Dancing Men" (in that it revolved around cracking a code, although they replaced the original's simple substitution cipher with a book cipher) and maybe just a bit from "The Creeping Man" (which also involved a mystery of how someone could climb up to an upstairs window -- the answer being possibly the silliest idea in the entire Holmes canon). Not a particularly impressive mystery; locked-room murders are old hat, and some elements were predictable. (For instance, I anticipated what happened with the crossbow bolt in the climax.)

It was okay overall -- and it had a hot Asian woman in it, always a plus -- but I had one very large problem with it. Namely, I disliked the way it portrayed Sherlock and John as being almost completely out of touch with each other. Sherlock not paying attention to what John said or did or even whether he was home; John standing outside griping, oblivious to Sherlock being attacked; etc. The essence of Holmes and Watson is their friendship, their bond of trust and mutual reliance, the deep respect and affinity the two men have for each other despite their great differences. True, Holmes could be a difficult and high-maintenance friend for Watson, but the friendship was genuine and mutual. There was none of that in evidence here. Both men were totally insensitive to each other, getting along so poorly that it wasn't convincing that they'd be working together at all. The friendship is the most pivotal element to the whole thing and the writer totally missed it here.

I'd heard that this episode was the weak link in the season, and I can see why. Hopefully that means next week's will be better.

In regards to their friendship: they are still at the beginning of it. they both, especially Sherlock, need to learn to trust each other. If this story had taken place a year into their friendship, yeah, it would be weird. But, it feels still early, well, it's their second case together. So, those kinds of moments make sense to me.

 

[Owain Taggart]

^ I thought you and Owain had seen all three. The second episode is definately not a good introduction and the first one is my favorite.

I'd seen the 2nd and the 3rd. Still trying to catch the first It's been elusive to me. I guess I need to Queue up the DVR and search for it. It's why I haven't commented on the events of the first. The 3rd was much better than the 2nd and actually lifted my spirits. Seeing your description, Christopher, now I know why I initially didn't like it due to them being out of touch with each other. It just felt so out of place and out of character. Hope you can see why I reacted the way I did to it.

 

[Christopher]

^ I thought you and Owain had seen all three.

No, I'm an American viewer and I only watch programs that are legally available for me to watch. Therefore I've only seen the two that have aired on American TV to date.

In regards to their friendship: they are still at the beginning of it. they both, especially Sherlock, need to learn to trust each other. If this story had taken place a year into their friendship, yeah, it would be weird. But, it feels still early, well, it's their second case together. So, those kinds of moments make sense to me.

But it's in relation to the first episode that it doesn't make sense to me. In the first episode, you could see that archetypal friendship forming. Sherlock, a man without friends, found himself connecting with Watson, opening up to him. Watson proved that he had Holmes's back, that he could be relied on in a life-threatening situation. To me, this episode made it seem like those beats in the first episode hadn't happened at all. It was inconsistent writing even by the series' own internal standards, independently of the broader Holmes mythos.

 

[Professor Zoom]

[

In regards to their friendship: they are still at the beginning of it. they both, especially Sherlock, need to learn to trust each other. If this story had taken place a year into their friendship, yeah, it would be weird. But, it feels still early, well, it's their second case together. So, those kinds of moments make sense to me.

But it's in relation to the first episode that it doesn't make sense to me. In the first episode, you could see that archetypal friendship forming. Sherlock, a man without friends, found himself connecting with Watson, opening up to him. Watson proved that he had Holmes's back, that he could be relied on in a life-threatening situation. To me, this episode made it seem like those beats in the first episode hadn't happened at all. It was inconsistent writing even by the series' own internal standards, independently of the broader Holmes mythos.

Emphasis mine. Forming, but not formed. For lack of a better term, there's an attraction between the two, but, then there's the reality. it's like a first date that went well, almost to well, and on the second date, there were bumps in the road.

Perhaps the second episode is after the honeymoon period is over.

I don't think this episode was the best of the lot, still entertaining me, but, I didn't feel an inconsistency in the relationship. It felt very human, actually, two people, one with a very idiosyncratic personality, who meet, work well, but are still new to each other, warts and all.

 

[Christopher]

I could understand growing pains, difficulty meshing, but this exaggerated that difficulty to a grotesque degree and I didn't think it was a credible continuation. And as I said, it just didn't feel like Holmes and Watson's relationship. Last week, I disagreed emphatically with RJDemonicus's claim that these weren't Holmes and Watson because they had some slight differences of interpretation. To me, the characters in "A Study in Pink" felt like Holmes and Watson to the core, largely because of the connection that formed between them. But these characters... well, I won't go so far as to say that they weren't Holmes and Watson, because at least by himself, Sherlock here was still pretty much Holmes, if a somewhat caricatured version thereof. But the team of Holmes and Watson was nowhere in sight. It just didn't feel as authentic to the characters.

I'm also troubled by how useless John was here. Watson is supposed to be the stalwart man of action, the one Holmes can always rely on in a crisis. But here, at Soo Lin's apartment, John was too caught up in his annoyance even to realize that Sherlock was in danger. Then, at the museum, he was totally useless, abandoning Soo Lin even though he knew that the guy trying to kill her was in the building. Sure, he went to try to help Sherlock, but he didn't actually do anything beyond searching futilely. And he didn't even stop to make sure Soo Lin followed his instruction to lock the door. He acted negligently and stupidly and allowed a woman he was responsible for protecting to get killed.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I could understand growing pains, difficulty meshing, but this exaggerated that difficulty to a grotesque degree and I didn't think it was a credible continuation. And as I said, it just didn't feel like Holmes and Watson's relationship. Last week, I disagreed emphatically with RJDemonicus's claim that these weren't Holmes and Watson because they had some slight differences of interpretation. To me, the characters in "A Study in Pink" felt like Holmes and Watson to the core, largely because of the connection that formed between them. But these characters... well, I won't go so far as to say that they weren't Holmes and Watson, because at least by himself, Sherlock here was still pretty much Holmes, if a somewhat caricatured version thereof. But the team of Holmes and Watson was nowhere in sight. It just didn't feel as authentic to the characters.

I'm also troubled by how useless John was here. Watson is supposed to be the stalwart man of action, the one Holmes can always rely on in a crisis. But here, at Soo Lin's apartment, John was too caught up in his annoyance even to realize that Sherlock was in danger. Then, at the museum, he was totally useless, abandoning Soo Lin even though he knew that the guy trying to kill her was in the building. Sure, he went to try to help Sherlock, but he didn't actually do anything beyond searching futilely. And he didn't even stop to make sure Soo Lin followed his instruction to lock the door. He acted negligently and stupidly and allowed a woman he was responsible for protecting to get killed.

We disagree about the friendship development.

But, I agree, Watson was a little more like Nigel Bruce. (that should make RJDemonicus happy. )

 

[Owain Taggart]

I have a feeling that the second episode was filmed first, which would explain why it felt so different. They probably shot A Study in Pink later and found that it was a better representation and decided to show it first. When I saw the second episode which was the first one I saw, I couldn't see the brilliance others were seeing, because it just felt so awkward to see these two the way they were. It also felt slightly more like a run of the mill crime show because of the lack of personality, so coming in to that, I felt incredibly worrisome over the series in general. I then saw the 3rd episode and I started to see what people were talking about. There were bits of brilliance in it and the characters felt more like the iconic characters.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I have a feeling that the second episode was filmed first, which would explain why it felt so different. They probably shot A Study in Pink later and found that it was a better representation and decided to show it first. When I saw the second episode which was the first one I saw, I couldn't see the brilliance others were seeing, because it just felt so awkward to see these two the way they were. It also felt slightly more like a run of the mill crime show because of the lack of personality, so coming in to that, I felt incredibly worrisome over the series in general. I then saw the 3rd episode and I started to see what people were talking about. There were bits of brilliance in it and the characters felt more like the iconic characters.

No. They may have been shot out of order, but Study in Pink was always meant to be first. It's in that episode where Holmes and Watson meet.

AND, there was a shorter version of the pilot that they discarded and then reshot. This was also a Study in Pink.

So, it was always meant to go first.

The second episode, I think suffers from the writing. It's just not as well written. It's the difference between good writing and GREAT writing.