Sub Rosa has a Scottish thing didn't it? Anyway luckily Chief O'Brien is probably one of the best characters in Trek history and the DS9 crew never seemed to shy away from the Irish stuff. I nearly choked when the "Battle of Clontarf" was mentioned.
Up The Long Ladder is absurd.
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Sub Rosa has a Scottish thing didn't it? Anyway luckily Chief O'Brien is probably one of the best characters in Trek history and the DS9 crew never seemed to shy away from the Irish stuff. I nearly choked when the "Battle of Clontarf" was mentioned.
I can't tell, Trekker47, if you are Irish or Irish-American or Irish-something else, so forgive me if I tell you things about the U.S. that you might already know. The reason Trek -- and other shows, for that example -- felt free to use Irish stereotypes is because nobody seriously believes them any more. Yes, I know all about the bad old days of "No Irish Need Apply," but those days are long gone and were long gone before I was born. And the reason is that it's kind of difficult to be racist about a group to which one belongs. I don't know what percentage of U.S. citizens (of western European blood, anyway) have at least some Irish in their ancestry, but the answer would be "a really high percentage." I am included in that group, by the way, and I'd bet big money that if you looked up the various persons connected to TNG, you would find lots of them in that group as well. Irish ancestry is everywhere.
So there is no general prejudice against the Irish in the U.S. Really. None. We even have a very famous college that uses a similar stereotype -- the University of Notre Dame's Fighting Irish. It's a Catholic university, attended over the years by many Irish Catholics (as well as other kinds of Catholics and non-Catholics), and all I can say is that if they perceive their mascot's name as offensive, they don't appear to be in any hurry to change it since the university was founded in 1842.
In contrast, many other forms of racism are not gone, much less long gone, which is why, for example, just about the only folks outside the KKK who can safely use black- or Hispanic-oriented stereotypes to a general audience and get away with it are black or Hispanic people. (Apparently Speedy Gonzales cartoons are now non-PC but the Mexican guys that my husband works with think they are hilarious -- they quote Speedy and everything.)
So that's why Irish stereotypes are used. They are safe, and the reason they are safe is because they are not about some downtrodden minority and because they have no connection to reality and everybody knows it. I don't know one single person who would watch that episode and say or think, "Yes, the Irish really are just like that." It's exactly, and I do mean exactly, like portraying all British as drinking tea all the time and saying "Pip pip!" or portraying all French males as wearing berets and chasing females a la Pepe le Peau.
Mind you, I'm not saying these quick-and-easy stereotypes are a great idea, particularly not for a show that wants to be taken seriously (which Pepe le Peau does not, of course). They are a lazy writer's way of saving himself the effort of doing original thinking and writing, of coming up with a more subtle way of conveying the idea of, "Hey! Let's make it so that a bunch of high-tech, uptight clones are forced to interact with a a primative, earthy race! Won't THAT be a hoot?" The episode could definitely have been much better. Why not just do exactly the same thing, sans the Irish accents, for example? Lots of societies besides the Irish wore homespun, kept pigs and drank liquor, after all. But I am confident, Trekker47, that what you sense as prejudice is just...sloppy, lazy writing. If you want to go around looking for anti-Irish sentiment among the writers and so on, that's your right, but I think you will be upsetting yourself for no good reason. Be annoyed at the foolish premise, by all means, but not by some TNG-fostered sentiment "against" Irish people.
So there is no general prejudice against the Irish in the U.S. Really. None. We even have a very famous college that uses a similar stereotype -- the University of Notre Dame's Fighting Irish. It's a Catholic university, attended over the years by many Irish Catholics (as well as other kinds of Catholics and non-Catholics), and all I can say is that if they perceive their mascot's name as offensive, they don't appear to be in any hurry to change it since the university was founded in 1842.
In contrast, many other forms of racism are not gone, much less long gone, which is why, for example, just about the only folks outside the KKK who can safely use black- or Hispanic-oriented stereotypes to a general audience and get away with it are black or Hispanic people. (Apparently Speedy Gonzales cartoons are now non-PC but the Mexican guys that my husband works with think they are hilarious -- they quote Speedy and everything.)
So that's why Irish stereotypes are used. They are safe, and the reason they are safe is because they are not about some downtrodden minority and because they have no connection to reality and everybody knows it. I don't know one single person who would watch that episode and say or think, "Yes, the Irish really are just like that." It's exactly, and I do mean exactly, like portraying all British as drinking tea all the time and saying "Pip pip!" or portraying all French males as wearing berets and chasing females a la Pepe le Peau.
Mind you, I'm not saying these quick-and-easy stereotypes are a great idea, particularly not for a show that wants to be taken seriously (which Pepe le Peau does not, of course). They are a lazy writer's way of saving himself the effort of doing original thinking and writing, of coming up with a more subtle way of conveying the idea of, "Hey! Let's make it so that a bunch of high-tech, uptight clones are forced to interact with a a primative, earthy race! Won't THAT be a hoot?" The episode could definitely have been much better. Why not just do exactly the same thing, sans the Irish accents, for example? Lots of societies besides the Irish wore homespun, kept pigs and drank liquor, after all. But I am confident, Trekker47, that what you sense as prejudice is just...sloppy, lazy writing. If you want to go around looking for anti-Irish sentiment among the writers and so on, that's your right, but I think you will be upsetting yourself for no good reason. Be annoyed at the foolish premise, by all means, but not by some TNG-fostered sentiment "against" Irish people.
Seemed Irish to me, but I admit to not being entire clear on the difference.
And, for the record, I've no Irish or Scottish ancestory.
It wasn't just that, it was the fact that the clones were produced from stolen genetic material. The cloners were so desperate that they essentially had to rob Riker and Pulaski for their DNA.
quote=Trekker4747;1975703]
And, for the record, I've no Irish or Scottish ancestory.[/quote]
Then I think it's very nice of you to worry about it. Needlessly, in my opinion, but very nice nonetheless.
Honestly, I have to think that if people of Irish descent were as worried by this as you are, we would no longer have the University of Notre Dame's Fighting Irish. And we do.
And, for the record, I've no Irish or Scottish ancestory.[/quote]
Then I think it's very nice of you to worry about it. Needlessly, in my opinion, but very nice nonetheless.
Honestly, I have to think that if people of Irish descent were as worried by this as you are, we would no longer have the University of Notre Dame's Fighting Irish. And we do.
[Mike Myers, pointing on a map] <-Ireland! Scottland->! The bloody SEA^!!!
If it's not Scottish, it's CRRRAP!! [/meyers]
Actually, the only thing I have against the Irish is if I have to do an org chart at work, and Jack O'Shaughnessy's name is on it, I have to make all the boxes as wide as his, and it's harder to fit. But I guess it'd be a even more difficult if I ever have to do one with Indian names.
Yeah... explain to me again why an American school with a French name calls its team the Fighting Irish? I've never quite gotten that one.
A
Amaris
Guest
You know, I'm an Irish folk and it doesn't bother me one little iota.
I actually like this episode.
J.
I actually like this episode.
J.
Well it's not so much that I "worry" about it, it's just that I generally dislike overblown stereotypes and I think potraying a group of Cletic (?) people as being back-water, drunken rubes with women who yell at the men, etc. should be offensive. The episode even had the male leader trying to erect a still on the ship!
And "Sub Rosa" is just as bad and, once again, Voyager's spirit folk... Ugh.
But regardless of the national origin of these people it's still an absurd episode. They could've made the "simpler" planet's people more simple without resorting to farcical stereotypes.
A
Amaris
Guest
^ But we Irish are back-water, drunken rubes who have women yelling at the men, and you know what?
There ain't no still like an Irish still,
cause an Irish still don't stop!
And if ya see the blessed sour mash there a cookin',
you better drink every last drop!
Seriously though, there are Irish folk like that, and there are Irish folk who are Professors,
Clergy, Lawyers, Doctors, Technicians, etc. It's just a stereotype. Why be offended for those
who are Irish but aren't bothered by it?
J.
J.
There ain't no still like an Irish still,
cause an Irish still don't stop!
And if ya see the blessed sour mash there a cookin',
you better drink every last drop!
Seriously though, there are Irish folk like that, and there are Irish folk who are Professors,
Clergy, Lawyers, Doctors, Technicians, etc. It's just a stereotype. Why be offended for those
who are Irish but aren't bothered by it?
J.
J.
My late sweetie, who was born in Ireland and raised in the US, hated this episode because it reinforced all the ridiculous stereotypes that Irish Americans have about Ireland.
Yeah... explain to me again why an American school with a French name calls its team the Fighting Irish? I've never quite gotten that one.
Because? I am too lazy and rushed to do any real research, but I am fairly confident that the reason is that it used to be the university of choice for lots of Irish Catholics (heck, maybe it still is), or it was at least perceived to be the university of choice for lots of Irish Catholics. And I think I've read (but remember the lazy+rushed caveat I mentioned above), that for a time "Catholic" and "Irish" were almost synonymous in many people's minds.
I believe it was actually founded by French priests, but perhaps there weren't that many French Catholic college-bound boys around.
I'm Irish-American
I wasn't particularly offended, because the portrayal of a strong woman, a jolly guy who appreciates a pipe and a good whiskey, and hard-working farm people are hardly negative stereotypes. The idea of an Irish-descended community of humble roots in space is actually pretty interesting, but they could have done so without the "overkill," creating a community more like the one in "Insurrection." Fair Haven was at least the fiction of Tom Paris, and despite what some people have said here it was FAR better executed than this episode of TNG-- and far more respectful to Irish history (despite being ridiculous). Fair Haven may even be one of Voyager's finer moments.
What I found weird is that our "strong woman" in the TNG version was also a nymphomaniac who was ready to jump Riker's bones and make clone babies at the drop of a hat (or panties).
Having said that, I don't think the writer's intentions were malicious. And, seeing as how I wear a flat cap, drink whiskey and Guinness Extra Stout regularly, smoke a brier pipe/cigars on occasion, can sing any number of Irish songs by heart, and come from a large family where every get together is an excuse to sing and dance and celebrate like its Saint Patty's day...
Yeah, I have no room to talk
.
I wasn't particularly offended, because the portrayal of a strong woman, a jolly guy who appreciates a pipe and a good whiskey, and hard-working farm people are hardly negative stereotypes. The idea of an Irish-descended community of humble roots in space is actually pretty interesting, but they could have done so without the "overkill," creating a community more like the one in "Insurrection." Fair Haven was at least the fiction of Tom Paris, and despite what some people have said here it was FAR better executed than this episode of TNG-- and far more respectful to Irish history (despite being ridiculous). Fair Haven may even be one of Voyager's finer moments.
What I found weird is that our "strong woman" in the TNG version was also a nymphomaniac who was ready to jump Riker's bones and make clone babies at the drop of a hat (or panties).
Having said that, I don't think the writer's intentions were malicious. And, seeing as how I wear a flat cap, drink whiskey and Guinness Extra Stout regularly, smoke a brier pipe/cigars on occasion, can sing any number of Irish songs by heart, and come from a large family where every get together is an excuse to sing and dance and celebrate like its Saint Patty's day...
Yeah, I have no room to talk
.
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Yeah, like Joe's Bar on the Galactica.
I don't have any Irish ancestry, so maybe I can't see prejudice where it exists, but why is this episode supposedly racist? If nothing else, it gave a very specific *reason* why the Irish colonists acted the way they did - they were followers of a philosopher who advocated that kind of simpler lifestyle (probably a reaction to World War III).
Now "Code of Honor," on the other hand...
A
Amaris
Guest
Very true, it does reinforce those stereotypes. But for all of those folks, there was Chief O'Brien, a good man with a good heart who was also Irish. You know, even though I love the episode, I can't remember why they acted so Irish Irish.
J.
Just wanted to weigh in on the stereotypical nature of the Irish folk portrayed in this ep. It is silly, and somewhat offensive, but as many of you here who are of Irish descent point out, you all aren't that terribly offended.
Hell, at least you had an Irish continuing character in Miles O'Brien! I'm Latino, and I'm somewhat galled by the lack of a regular Latino character on any of the ST shows. Oh, sure, we've had guest stars, both those playing Latino characters like Commodore Mendez, or Latino actors playing characters of varying ethnicities, like Ricardo Montalban as Khan.
And to be sure, at least VOY had two regulars who are of Latino descent: Robert Beltran/Chakotay, and Roxann Biggs-Dawson/B'Elanna Torres (who I would guess is at least part Latino with that surname!).
As I said, the comely but angry lass who Riker hooks up with, that's the only saving grace to this ep! I love redheads!
Red Ranger
Hell, at least you had an Irish continuing character in Miles O'Brien! I'm Latino, and I'm somewhat galled by the lack of a regular Latino character on any of the ST shows. Oh, sure, we've had guest stars, both those playing Latino characters like Commodore Mendez, or Latino actors playing characters of varying ethnicities, like Ricardo Montalban as Khan.
And to be sure, at least VOY had two regulars who are of Latino descent: Robert Beltran/Chakotay, and Roxann Biggs-Dawson/B'Elanna Torres (who I would guess is at least part Latino with that surname!).
As I said, the comely but angry lass who Riker hooks up with, that's the only saving grace to this ep! I love redheads!
Red Ranger
Roxann's maiden name is Caballero.
Beltran, however, was playing a generic American Indian of Tribe Hollywood ancestry.
No, you're thinking of The High Ground. And it wasn't banned in Europe, I think the BBC just wouldn't broadcast it.
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