Unpopular Trek opinions game

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by StametsFungi, May 15, 2019.

  1. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Add the Colonel Green exterminating the weak era then its makes sense why humans live longer in the ST universe, the stronger gene pool won the war, or those dodgy Eugenic mad scientists contaminated the water supply or something before they hopped on the Botany Bay.
     
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  2. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Humanity has seemed to learn some sort of lesson per Kirk's comments in Return to Tomorrow:
    KIRK: Then perhaps your intelligence wasn't so great, Sargon. We faced a similar crisis in our early nuclear age. We found the wisdom not to destroy ourselves.​
     
  3. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, humanity apparently almost destroyed themselves.
     
  4. Delta Vega

    Delta Vega Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So long as Tina Turner isn't singing
     
  5. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Was there more than one nuclear war on Earth?:
    SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty seven million who died in your third. Shall I go on?
    I think it safe to assume that some sort of nuclear exchange as part of WWIII, resulting in 37 million dead. Even though 37 million sounds large, it is rather low once you start throwing nuclear weapons around. Did humans find the wisdom not to escalate further with nuclear weapons?

    1. Was the Eugenics War in the early 1990's a nuclear war or even WWIII?
    SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships.​
    I see it where a group of supermen tried and failed to seise power around a world in chaos. We are given Khan as one if not the biggest dictator of his time; he was "From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh." Even today, India and Pakistan have long term border and religious disputes and both have developed nuclear weapons. Also, throw Iran into the mix. Did they start a limited nuclear war in Asia? Maybe, maybe not. Khan and his type were branded criminals and hunted down as a result. Stopped by a Western Coalition. World peace. Worldwide band on nuclear weapons...maybe not yet.

    2. But wait, we learn that there was a nuclear war in the mid-21st century, too. Is this Spock's "Shall I go on?" In First Contact, it paints the picture that nuclear weapons were probably abandoned (possibly after a limited nuclear war seeming to be more recent than the 1990's) giving Cochrane the opportunity to "buy" a demilitarized ballistic missile or have it granted to him for his experiments by the United States. I'm confused.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  6. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Given how inaccurate Spock is about the deaths in the first and second world wars, the numbers for the third are probably no better.
     
  7. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Depend on a lot of factors. If the fighting wasn't spread across the Earth, but rather were restricted to a limited region, then the devastation wouldn't be world wide.

    The way the bulk of world war one was fought in certain areas of Europe, but wasn't world wide. Large areas of Europe were untouched. Many countries around the world contributed support to the war, but saw no combat on their home soil.

    If nuclear weapon use was hypothetically centered in high population portions of China, India, and Pakistan, then Earth as a whole would not experience combat and not "revert to barbarity."
    Maybe. But in 1994 the Ukraine surrendered their nuclear weapons in exchange for a guarantee of peace (the Budapest Memorandum) and look where that got them.
    Currently India and Pakistan each have about 140 nukes, with a unknown number deployed as opposed to stored. China has as many as India and Pakistan combined, again with a unknown number ready to use.

    The combatants (who ever they were) might have used all their ready weapons, and then were too badly damaged to use the rest. Or a cease fire was reached prior to their stock piles being fully used.
    Riker said 600 million, to reach that level of fatalities nukes would pretty much have to have be used (maybe combined with other weapons of mass destruction). In FC, Data mentioned radiation in the atmosphere.
    I think the Eugenics Wars (plural) of the 1990's and the Third World War (singular) of the 2050's were two entirely separate events.
    My take is Khan and the others supermen were ultimately stopped and forced out by the people of the nations they seized control of, no "western coalition." The western countries might have come in after it was all over to assist in picking up the pieces.
    My impression is that the O'Briens were estranged, and this was the primary reason Keiko left.
     
  8. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not true.

    This was after Keiko's teaching career fell through (she didn't have any students left) and she was simply looking for something to do. Miles encouraged her to take the trip to Bajor, because botany is what she's trained for.
     
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  9. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    Isn't it more "logical" to assume that Star Trek happens in an alternate universe which had different events in its World Wars, so that they had different numbers of fatalities, than to assume that Spock could be so inaccurate about the number of fatalities in the known world wars?

    The information about the world wars is not very extensive.

    In "Space Seed":

    The mid 1990s in the calendar used in "Space Seed" should go from 1993.33 SS to 1996.66 SS.

    So according to the textbooks used by Spock, the Eugenics Wars was the latest Earth conflict that qualified as one of the World Wars. So whether the Eugenics Wars were designated World War Three or World War Thirty Three, or had some other number on Spock's list of world wars on Earth, they were considered the last world war on Earth.

    Spock later describes the era of the Eugenics Wars:

    Whole populations being bombed out of existence implies the use of ICBMs with nuclear warheads.

    In "The City on the Edge of Forever" the Second World War is identified as the one with Hitler and the Nazis:

    So according to the list of Earth's world wars used by Kirk and Spock, the Second World War was the one that lasted from 1939 to 1945 in our history. That implies that the First World War on their list was probably the war that lasted from 1914 to 1918 in our history.

    In "Bread and Circuses":

    So unless the official list of Earth's world wars changed between seasons, the First World War that lasted from 1914 to 1918 in our history had six million fatalities in Star Trek's history, the Second World War that lasted from 1939 to 1945 in our history had eleven million fatalities in Star Trek's history, and the Third World War that has not yet happened in our history had thirty seven million fatalities in Star Trek's history.

    Since the fatalities for World War I and World War II are much fewer than in our history, Star Trek should be in an alternate universe where fewer countries were involved in those wars and/or those wars were much shorter, in order to explain their lower casualties.

    Spock's words may imply that Earth had later world wars than the first three, and thus that the Eugenics Wars, listed as Earth's last world war, were World War Four or later. Note that Spock says that thirty seven million died in the Third World War, while he also says that entire populations were bombed out of existence in the Eugenics Wars, implying many more deaths than thirty seven million.

    In Star Trek: First Contact the Enterprise E travels back in time at Earth:

    So if April fourth, 2063 in the First Contact calendar (FC) is approximately ten years after the Third World War, the Third World War should have happened about 2053 FC in the First Contact calendar.

    Since Spock mentioned:

    [World War] and Riker said that the Third World War resulted in
    it seems logical to deduce that Spock and Riker mentioned two different conflicts. 600,000,000 dead is about 16.2 times 37,000,000 dead.

    Therefore, it seems likely that historians renumbered Earth's world wars sometime between the era of TOS and the era of TNG, dropping at least one conflict previously considered to be a world war from the list, so that the new Third World War was previously counted as the Fourth World War, or possibly had an even higher number.

    Spock said that the Eugenics Wars were the last of Earth's world wars on his list. Nobody would leave the Third World War mentioned in Star Trek: First Contact, with six hundred million dead, off the list of world wars used in the TOS era, so the Eugenics Wars could not happen before the Third World War of Star Trek: First Contact.

    Therefore, the Eugenics Wars either happened after the Third World War of Star Trek: First Contact or else were the Third World War of Star Trek: First Contact under a different name.

    If the Eugenics Wars happened after the Third World War of Star Trek: First Contact Spock's lists of Earth's world wars would have gone something like this:

    First World War roughly equivalent to World War I from AD 1914 to 1918 in our history, but with many fewer fatalities. The world war that seems most likely to have been dropped from the list of world wars in the era of TNG.

    Second World War roughly equivalent to World War II from AD 1939 to 1945 in our history, but with many fewer fatalities. Possibly renumbered as the First World War in the era of TNG.

    Third World War happening sometime after AD 1945, with thirty seven million dead. Possibly renumbered as the Second World War in the era of TNG.

    Fourth World War happening about 2053 FC, with six hundred million dead. Renumbered as the Third World War in the era of TNG.

    Fifth World war or Eugenics Wars, happening in the period of about 1993 to 1996 SS, which is sometime after about 2063 FC, with entire populations being bombed out of existence. Presumably renumbered as the Fourth World War in the era of TNG.

    If the Eugenics Wars were the Third World War of Star Trek: First Contact under a different name Spock's lists of Earth's world wars would have gone something like this:

    First World War roughly equivalent to World War I from AD 1914 to 1918 in our history, but with many fewer fatalities. The world war that seems most likely to have been dropped from the list of world wars in the era of TNG.

    Second World War roughly equivalent to World War II from AD 1939 to 1945 in our history, but with many fewer fatalities. Possibly renumbered as the First World War in the era of TNG.

    Third World War happening sometime after AD 1945, with thirty seven million dead. Possibly renumbered as the Second World War in the era of TNG.

    Fourth World War or Eugenics wars happening in the period of about 1993 to 1996 SS, which is about 2053 FC, with six hundred million dead, & with entire populations being bombed out of existence. Renumbered as the Third World War in the era of TNG.

    Note that the period of about 1993 to 1996 SS (in the "Space Seed" calendar, is roughly equal to about 2053 FC (in the First Contact calendar). If about 2050 to 2056 FC equals about 1993 to 1996 SS, the year one in the "Space Seed" calendar should equal about the year 55 to 62 in the First Contact calendar.

    Presumably various religious or ethnic groups would sometimes persuade the United Earth government to replace the then official calendar of the United Earth with the calendar they prefer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  10. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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    Why can't we just decree that Disco is not part of the regular timeline?
     
  11. BillJ

    BillJ History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    I’m already there. :lol:
     
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  12. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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    I mean, the things we do for canon!
     
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I mean, you can.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    I just wish the writing was compelling enough that canon never entered the equation.
     
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    As though that would end the discussion.
     
  16. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Star Trek: First Contact is worst of the movies. The first third of incredibly rushed, full of nonsese from Starfleet Command about "never facing the Borg (Descent, I, Borg)," Picard moping around the ship because he is sitting on the sidelines (Bezet?) and the caricature of Star Trek's iconic moments (Worf and the Defiant, "To Hell with our orders," Riker acting as lap dog, again).

    The tone of this movie is incredibly dark. It's Star Trek's horror film. 9 zombies running around the Enterprise, Picard moping through the corridors, destroying ships, ordering crew members to die, screwing the Borg Queen, culiminating in Picard's Ahab moment that is neither satisfying or revalent to the character past Descent. He is still fraught with emotions as he attempts to save Data and succumbs to the Borg Queen.

    They change history. DS9 built an entire premise in Past Tense that is skipped to hear about bathroom breaks and statues. They are telling Cochrane what happens, and it is against the laws, and creativity, we have come to know in time travel episodes.

    It's dreary, it's not hopeful, iconic moments that are aware of themselves, and could've been an Alien or Star Wars movie. What stories make Star Trek unique?
     
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  17. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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    Unpopular Opinion: Quinto is actually a better Spock than Nimoy.
     
  18. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    BW.jpg
     
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  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    It is very much this. And that is why I do not enjoy it.
     
  20. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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