Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Kahlesh, May 15, 2019.
Yes, but Star Trek isn't just entertainment but is a way of life!!!!!
Yes...yes...I almost forgot about that fact!
The problem with ST is that it predicts an ideal future, but only AFTER a third world war!! I'd rather have a less ideal future but without WWIII if you don't mind? Well, and there's already one thing they predicted that never happened, it's the eugenic wars!
Eugenic Wars they may have just dated too early.
Having a utopian world doesn’t mean no drama or interesting stories, at least not if you’re a talented writer who doesn’t rely on stock conflicts and tropes. Being without modern human problems does not mean everyone is always in agreement.
Also utopian doesn’t mean no prisons, just no underfunded or private prisons with degrading, dehumanizing conditions where you are abused by guards with no recourse.
It does if you set up a bunch of asinine rules about how characters can't do this, or won't do that because "evolved humanity," which is often what was dictated by Roddenberry's office in early TNG, and then interpreted as the flame to carry on by Rick Berman in many instances.
Humans not dying anymore, being immortal, and thus having no need to fear death, is utopian. Humans still dying but not afraid of death anymore is dystopian. Fear of bad things happening is rational and leads to taking action to reduce the probability of bad things happening. If people still die, fear of death is good.
If people die, but aren't afraid of death, they won't seek to develop ways to become immortal and avoid death. They will not seek to bring dead people back to life. And their society will seem rather dystopian to me, no matter what else is good about it.
It is good to have the political frontier as far away as possible, so that the occasional violence and wars on the frontier happen as far away as possible. And I may note that in Star trek the Humans have also banded together with some of the aliens in order to have the wars with aliens in space be farther away.
What's insane is that in ST they've found like a dozen ways to become immortal and they aren't using any of them. Then, you have an admiral using something incredibly painful and that ends up killing him fast, instead of inquiring about the sure-fire ways disdained by the Enterprise's main cast!!
Fear of death/mortality is part of what makes life precious and forces people (well...in some cases) to "make it count."
Wasn't that actually a major theme of Star Trek Generations?
Why would there be prisons if it is utopian? Why is the Utopian TNG era have hard labor camps for prisoners?
The Roddenberry Box is alive and well.
A stupid idea like most of the "philosophical" things that Picard says. The problem is not mortality is that life seems short, when we're close to the end it feels like we could live that same amount of time again. That means if instead of dying round eighty we could live until we're 160, death wouldn't come as such a terrible thing. Most people would probably choose to die sooner.
I think the real point of Generations was "don't delude yourself, because others depend on you". Soran rejected reality (and moving forward in life) in favor of living in a fiction. Picard and Kirk rejected the fantasy (despite having understandable reasons for embracing the Nexus) because they felt obligated to help the helpless.
The stuff about living and dying was mostly superfluous dialogue trying to at gravity to scenes that were actually distracting from the larger points.
This another one from an early TNG episode, and probably another example of futurism from Rodenberry. It was from Beverly and the way it sounded, came off like 24th century humans were just beyond that, and that it was primitive relict from the past.
The funny thing is a few episodes later there was a scientist who wanted to survive so badly he invaded Data's body and refused to give it up.
Sisko said there was no crime either.
You have to remember, if Roddenberry had his way, future humans don't use money, they walk around naked in public with no last names anymore, use Love instructors" .
And are no longer offended by insults.
If you call a man's wife a "stupid b**ch" after accidently bumping into her, the man or the woman wouldn't get angry, at all. And all humans are like this.
Sound very Utopian
In speech, yes, but in practice it was not.
In my TOS universe we mostly only see Terrans in Starfleet is because we are only seeing United Earth. Yes, we are linked in a LOOSE federation with the Vulcans, Andorians & Tellarites, but only at the highest political level. Each have their own space, thier own political structures, their own laws etc. But each structure is linked and federated at that level. Mutual trade, defence, sharing knowledge, intelligence, technology etc.
Axanar ( whatever it was) increased links between Terra and the Vulcans and led to the "Vulcanian (peace/negotiation /diplomatic) mission" mentioned in Court Martial. By the time of the TOS movies we are seeing greater integration.
My (probably) unpopular opinion.
Popular with me.
First Season TOS clearly has Starfleet under United Earth running Earth's space forces (Bases, Stations, Outposts, Ships, etc.). By our standards, Starfleet was like a combination of the Navy, Coast Guard and NASA. During Season One, Earth had 12 Starships commissioned and at least 12 main Starbases. United Earth operated similar to Colonial Britain for controlling their space domain (avoiding the word "empire").
By the middle of Season One, it looks like a new agreement was made such that Starfleet moved under a Federation Council arrangement and took over the operations of all UPF's joint space forces. Each Federation member would contribute assets to the joint forces, but each member still maintained their own assets in their own space domains (probably their own solar systems). By our standards, it was like NATO with the United States contributing the bulk of the assets and control. Starfleet headquarters would remain on Earth, and even though Starfleet was open to all member planets, it was mainly Earth-centralist. United Earth transferred all its Starships, Starbases and Colonies to the new organization.
Some great ideas taking this concept further.
Just a few more extrapolations from me
No wonder Sarek was not well pleased that Spock chose to serve with United Earth than (The Logical Star State of) Vulcan! Shows a little distance and mild emnity between the two organisations (equally avoiding the word "Empire" !!).
Explains why a Terran starship took the delegates/ambassadors to the Coridan issue debate at Babel (a very Terran name for a place to get together and speak, by the way - refer to Genesis in the Bible if you don't get the reference). A good demonstration that what was once UE Starfleet is now (fully united) UFP Starfleet.
And an interesting thought around the Terran fleet becoming the new Starfleet. Especially if the others kept thier home fleets while the ex UE one is now spread across the Federation and beyond. On the surface it seems Terra-centric, Human starfleet everywhere but with this thought it maybe seems more like an excellent way to dilute and disperse the Terran starfleet and so keep it a little more controlable and a little less of a threat? Maybe why there's never any other ships within range of Terra in the movies?
Sounds like Vulcan logic.
UFP Treaties might say that home solar systems may not have planet/satellite based defenses, and any space ships and space stations in the UFP member planets with offensive capabilities have to be under Starfleet/UFP control. This guarantees members will not be able to fight with each other. (Sounds like Vulcan logic, again. ) By our standards, it is like today's U.S. Military versus State Militias during to the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. Just hope Starfleet allocates its Starship and Starbase defense forces to protect the UFP, wisely.
It's vital to distinguish between a vision of positive future versus a utopian vision where there is no conflict between human beings.
Star Trek is beloved because it is a positive vision of life. There's no denying that.
The vision of a positive future in Star Trek: TMP is one of Star Trek's best representations of the future. It was a beautiful world I'd want inhabit yet people are portrayed honestly. Kirk and Spock are motivated by self-centered needs. Kirk needs command and he uses V'ger to get the Enterprise back. Spock rejoins the crew not to save humanity but to answer his existential longings. They are real people not evolved humans. So there is real conflict in the story, and as many others have declared, conflict is the heart of drama.
unpopular Opinion: I used to like TWOK but after several viewings, I find it practically unwatchable. Khan who's said to be a genius falls for the stupidest of tricks. If the planet has only ONE remaining form of indigenous life then what the hell have they been eating for years? The genesis thing makes no sense whatsoever. We know that lifeless planets are way more numerous than planets with life on it! They should have seen that the stellar system was missing a planet! etc...
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