Uniform Insignia

For the record, I've always maintained that Kirk was a Commander during that episode...

 

I always kinda liked the idea of the indivual ships having their own emblem. Though being in the army it made sense for us to have seperate division patchs, while the uniform itself identified you as a member of the US Armed forces.

It was to me also a way for the indivual ship's crew to bond and draw a sense of pride from serving on that ship. *shrugs*

I just prefered the old TOS style and loved the braiding on the sleeves as well and was never a huge fan of the pips.

Although for the FC/Late DS9 uniforms the pips looked better, fit that style of uniform better. I just think the one symbol for Starfleet (combadge) was sorta reduntant. I mean the uniform stands out and says 'Starfleet' the insignia should then tell the viewer where the officer/crewman is stationed.

Just my two cents.

Vons

 

It's only anomalous compared to the RN/USN stripes, though, because they go from three to four, skipping 3.5 stripes. Sequentially, the Starfleet system makes more sense that the RN/USN system. (The reason they skip 3.5 is because originally there were no narrow stripes, just one through four regular stripes for lieutenant, commander, captain and commodore. Later they moved commodore up to the big flag-rank stripe, bumped the rest up, and added some half stripes for new grades without changing the existing stripes.)

I've always wondered, though, if the broken stripe was the reason we saw only one JG in all of TOS; the vast majority of background personnel have either one stripe or none. Might it be that it was just a lot easier for wardrobe to machine-sew single stripes on the sleeves, rather than lining up, spacing, pinning and sewing on several small bits of braid? Of course, principal characters would be different, but for background players, why go to the added trouble?

The British RN used to make a seniority distinction between captains: those under three years were equivalent to an army lieutenant colonel, after that they were equal to colonel. Wouldn't a senior grade of captain in Starfleet be a good slot for the much-debated fleet captain?!

I never really cared for the collar pips as being somewhat small for recognation at any distance, but I have to admit that aboard a starship recognizing rank from far away would not be much of an issue. I would have preferred, just for a nice continuty, that the TNG pips had followed the came sequence as the TOS sleeve braid, so two solid and one voided pips would be the insignia for Capt instead of LCdr. And I much prefer the pips to the flashy, arbitrary rank pins of the ST2-6 movies.

I also liked the idea of individual ship emblems, and I think that was the basic intent, even though that did not always carry through to the execution. If I had one wish about TOS uniforms, though, it would be that they showed some type of grade insignia for enlisted personnel.

--Justin

 

So that would make Pike a lieutenant during The Cage?

 

Whereas on a 19" RCA Victor, it's a glint of light on a shirt.

And THAT is the standard by which this material should be judged, what did it look like in '68 on the typical home set, not in 2010 with high definition transfers on playback equipment that allows for freeze frames and zooming in, all on a monitor that would've rivaled the screening room at Paramount back in the day.

The earlier examples of "Court Martial" and "The Menagerie" are fair game, but "The Tholian Web" is getting excessively picky.

 

Naval tradition holds that whoever is in command of a vessel is addressed as "Captain". Doesn't matter if the person in question is a Seaman Third Class, if he's in command of the boat, you call him "Captain". (This doesn't necessarily apply to someone in temporary command while the skipper is away somewhere.)

As for the rank stripe issue, there have been a few runs at this quandry, usually winding up with Pike holding the rank of commander at the time of "The Cage" with Kirk being a captain in both rank and position, but the sad truth is that they really hadn't fleshed out the rank insignia question just yet, and probably had no intention of doing so until given a reason, like the show being sold to a network. Until then, they had bigger fish to fry.

 

Indeed, the arguments only become meaningful (YMMV) in retrospect and in the context of the spinoff shows which establish that the TOS rank scheme was in full force long before the series itself - in ENT, in STXI, in various flashbacks.

FWIW, Pike commanded a ship that was only half as important as Kirk's - 200+ vs. 430 crew. And that ship was on what in retrospect appears like a milk run mission: meddling in the Rigel system, which later in Trek is established to be well-traveled by Earth explorers and authorities such as Starfleet. It might not be impossible for him to be Lieutenant there... After all, his rank braid seems to be the exact same as Number One's, and we know from dialogue that Number One held the rank of Lieutenant (unless Pike was speaking colloquially and meaning that Commander Whazzername was his "trusted lieutenant").

Agree - but mainly because that is what TPTB want us to think in ENT "In a Mirror, Darkly" where we supposedly see the same scenes in greater resolution that reveals chest insignia distinct from the Enterprise ones.

Timo Saloniemi

 

Am reading GR's favorite series, Horation Hornblower. HH just got appointed Captain, and has one epaulette due to his less than three years' tenure.

The pips are hard to see/read on my 25 in. regular (cathode tube) tv. The movie "pips" are too complicated and hard to read, I agree.

 

Aside from the admiral grades (which can also be read by the number of marks on the sleeve band), though, they're not really any more complicated than the current American collar/cover/chest insignia, which are also quite small in Navy use.

I do agree that the strip system is more elegant, nonetheless.

 

I always thought they looked more like marching band uniforms. I kept expecting the Enterprise crew to break into a chorus of “76 Trombones.”

 

I actually thought the TOS movie rank pins were the most original and truly futuristic rank insignia Trek ever devised.

Then I realized that despite the different shapes, they were really roughly based off the TOS rank system as far as lieutenants, commanders, and captains go...

 

I agree with your first thought. They did remind me of the rank insignia worn in the U.S. military, but only superficially so.