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Uniform Confirmation from Trekmovie.com

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Sounds good to me. As for the whole two-piece vs. one-piece discussion, it's true that the uniform tops had the black collar integrated in TOS. However, there is some precedent for a top shirt/jacket and one underneath. As we saw in The Cage, the landing party had excursion jackets, so this division isn't a big stretch from that era.

Also, let's not forget that in most of the other ST movies, as well as some of the series, the two-piece look is quite prevalent. The more I hear, the more I'm encouraged that we're getting respectful nods to TOS's past from Abrams and company. I mean, c'mon, you didn't think a movie made in 2008 would feature uniform tops that look exactly like TOS tops from 1966?

Red Ranger
Some people prefer to live in the past. It's known as the Star Trek Paradox... they love a show about the future, but it must be exactly like the past. This thinking would shut down Norman, but somehow it keeps this type of fan going.
GO, JJ, GO! :vulcan:

Right! "Everything the fans say is a lie!" "Now listen carefully, Norman. We're lying!" Bzzzt! :guffaw:-- RR
 
In fact, in the remastered versions of the episodes the "gold" tunics are identifiably avocado green.

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x14/balanceofterror070.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x14hd/balanceofterrorhd033.jpg

Sorry, I don't see it. In one print, there's a slight greenish tinge, but they still appear gold to me. Certainly not avocado green! Sure you're not color blind? Besides, despite the original intent, every other time since, that color has been gold. The only time green appeared was in the ST movies from TWOK to TUC, where all medical personnel like McCoy and Chapel wore green turtlenecks under their maroon uniform jackets -- and how unsightly was that color combo! -- RR
 
Sorry, I don't see it. In one print, there's a slight greenish tinge, but they still appear gold to me. Certainly not avocado green! Sure you're not color blind?

Yep.

Color blindness, BTW, is the inability to reliably distinguish between some colors; the effective range of color vision is diminished. That would properly apply to the folks who are unable to see the difference between green and gold or who consider a tints and variations to be meaningless, rather than to the folks who can see the difference. Sure you're not color blind?
 
It just occurred to me that people with some forms of color-blindness must have one heckuva frustrating time with this issue, wondering what we're talking about.

*waves hand*

I am red/green colourblind. Over the years, I've had to teach myself the art of telling my greens and reds apart. They are on opposite sides of the colour wheel and should be totally complementary. To my eye, lime green and orange are identical.

I used to get confused by blue and purple, and even brown and black, until I was about eight. It wasn't confirmed I was colourblind till I was twelve. and even then, I never underwent tests because, as they said, there is no cure. (We did have a documentary once that showed an artist "curing" the colourblind by teaching them to mix oil paints, so it is probably lucky that I've always been an artist myself.)

As a little kid, I could also see green on a b/w TV! I have very distinct memories of Fred Flintstone mowing green grass in the 60s. I didn't know I was colourblind at the time, so assumed the grey tone on b/w cartoons was green. This was a decade before Australia got colour TV, and it just looked just like grass to me! I recently blogged about it here:
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/2008/07/confessions-of-colourblind-man-now-i.html

For decades, I've looked at photos of Kirk in his supposedly-avocado flesh shirt (that always looked mustard/gold to me) that people would glance at and say, "Green, of course". I understood the articles about the colour really being green, but showing up gold under studio lighting and TV transmission, but now I can see the difference. I've trained my brain to recognize it. And with the upgrades to HD of TOS, I am delighted I can now see the difference on TV as well. But, as I said earlier, there are still times during a scene where the greenness can become gold.

I have an ancient TV that renders blue as pink. So sorry, folks, TOS-era dress uniforms (at least those on Spock and McCoy) are PINK. :p

Hehehehe. (Remember the old days when you called a serviceman to your home - to change the picture tube!) I recall chatting to some Americans when Australia was introducing colour TV in 1975. Our colour TV system was to be called PAL. There's a joking reason why the US system was called NTSC - supposedly "Never Twice the Same Colour".

I also recall someone saying that early US TV's had trouble with yellow, and I was very worried that my then-favourite TV character, Robin the Boy Wonder, would end up with a pinkish cape when I finally saw him on TV. I mean, in the gum cards I was buying (photos from the Adam West/Burt Ward feature film version), the cape was such a vivid yellow! Mind you, at that time, my friends and I had no idea there was a feature film version, and wondered why we never saw the "episode" featured on the cards. But that's another story.

But back to TOS. The major green/mustard uniform problem was connected with the original velour costumes Theiss had made. After that the new fabric had to be specialty-dyed, and the command shirts used in Seasons Two and Three were nowhere near as avocado flesh green as the velour, IIRC. So when studying differences, the first thirteen or so episodes of Season One are the ones to concentrate on.
 
In one print, there's a slight greenish tinge, but they still appear gold to me. Certainly not avocado green!

It's avocado flesh, BTW, not the colour of an avocado's skin! ;)

When I look at the inside of an avocado, it's green, but a weird pale brownish green that I don't see replicated by too many other things in nature. My mind doesn't want to catalogue it with grass green, or olive green, or lime green.

It's sort off... Starfleet green, I guess!

Dark Gilligan said: I mean a real costume used on the show. Trust those who have.
The fabric is not green. It's mustard gold.
Did they see a velour shirt from the first thirteen episodes of Season One, or one made from a second batch of material dyed to attempt to match the first shirts, or was it one made from the other material used in Season Three? People have seen the ones on display at the Star Trek Experience in Las Vegas (and in various traveling museum displays), and argued, "Avocado green!" "No, gold!" for ten years now.

Books about ST written in the 60s, by the creators of ST in the 60s, have related stories of the green vs gold debate.

And the colours have changed in subtle, and not so subtle, ways over time. In the It's a Wrap! auctions, they were once selling off a pinkish coloured Starfleet shirt with a science insignia, which had scorch marks matching a certain key Spock scene. The colour had faded bizarrely over four decades of time.
 
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Also, which Saavik is the real one, and which is the imposter?
Kirstie Alley, of course. All others are fake. :vulcan:

It just occurred to me that people with some forms of color-blindness must have one heckuva frustrating time with this issue, wondering what we're talking about.
*waves hand*

I am red/green colourblind. Over the years, I've had to teach myself the art of telling my greens and reds apart. They are on opposite sides of the colour wheel and should be totally complementary. To my eye, lime green and orange are identical.
Well, it's a good thing that under some circumstances, those colors actually do go together. ;)

Therin of Andor said:
I have an ancient TV that renders blue as pink. So sorry, folks, TOS-era dress uniforms (at least those on Spock and McCoy) are PINK. :p
Hehehehe. (Remember the old days when you called a serviceman to your home - to change the picture tube!) I recall chatting to some Americans when Australia was introducing colour TV in 1975. Our colour TV system was to be called PAL. There's a joking reason why the US system was called NTSC - supposedly "Never Twice the Same Colour".
I've no idea what happens (or happened) in the United States as regards TV repairs -- I'm Canadian. ;) And whenever our older TVs needed fixing, my grandfather would take them into the repair shop in town. Of course, that was long before it almost became cheaper to simply buy a new TV instead of fixing the old one.

Dune fans can sympathize with me over that old blue=pink TV... the first time I watched the 1984 Lynch movie on that TV and the first scene came up with the vivid Fremen blue-within-blue eyes... they were NEON PINK! :eek::eek::eek:

Yikes, that was freaky... :wtf:
 
What color does this look like?

http://flickr.com/photos/26843349@N05/2515072144

More mustard than green to me...

I'm betting that shirt is not from the first thirteen episodes of TOS.

what part of the avocado are you talking about?

http://k53.pbase.com/o4/84/49884/1/58347050.Avacado.JPG

Yep. The avocado has flesh that is a goldish green. ;)

Many people say this still pic is close to the actual colour:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37203498@N00/245792798/sizes/o/
 
Sorry, I don't see it. In one print, there's a slight greenish tinge, but they still appear gold to me. Certainly not avocado green! Sure you're not color blind?

Yep.

Color blindness, BTW, is the inability to reliably distinguish between some colors; the effective range of color vision is diminished. That would properly apply to the folks who are unable to see the difference between green and gold or who consider a tints and variations to be meaningless, rather than to the folks who can see the difference. Sure you're not color blind?

Well, maybe I am! I really don't see it. I do see that Kirk's two wraparounds are definitely green. And I also see what Therin means when he says avocado flesh color, so maybe I'm facultatively color-blind! :guffaw:-- RR
 
What color does this look like?

http://flickr.com/photos/26843349@N05/2515072144

More mustard than green to me...

I'm betting that shirt is not from the first thirteen episodes of TOS.

what part of the avocado are you talking about?

http://k53.pbase.com/o4/84/49884/1/58347050.Avacado.JPG

Yep. The avocado has flesh that is a goldish green. ;)

Many people say this still pic is close to the actual colour:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37203498@N00/245792798/sizes/o/

Therin: I do see that the last pic in the link you posted that the shirt is a greenish hue, albeit not as green as Kirk's two wraparound tunics. But it's a moot point -- the TOS command color has been rendered gold ever since, for decades -- see DSN ep Trials and Tribblelations -- and to most folks, that's the familiar color, so it stands to reason that in the new movie, they'd go with that color, no matter what the intent of the original costumers was! -- RR
 
But it's a moot point

That's why we're mooting. ;)

the TOS command color has been rendered gold ever since, for decades... no matter what the intent of the original costumers was!

I'm not disagreeing with you. As I said, after the first batch of material, they had to dye more and it wasn't the exact same shade anyway. So, yes, I'm expecting the command uniforms to appear gold, no matter what colour the fabric really is. And that's perfectly fine with me, especially since I'm colourblind anyway.
 

That's my photo I took, and yes the tunic does have a slight green tint to it. But as I said in the caption, it may not have been a uniform from the original series production. From the markers, such as the higher, more defined collar and the material used, it may have been one of the uniforms constructed for the aborted Phase: II. The uniform was completed with TMP braid and not TOS braid.
 
That's my photo I took, and yes the tunic does have a slight green tint to it. But as I said in the caption, it may not have been a uniform from the original series production.

You know what else is funny. I saw that image this morning and it was very gold. Looking at it now in early evening light, the sleeves are more ambiguous as to exact colour. So just the level of lighting in my house is affecting what i see.

Also, it's under regular spotlights (and a camera's flash?), not typical TV studio lighting.
 
Solution to the Gold Command Shirt Color Issue (TM): it's both green and gold. At least according to Testors, who makes a paint called "Lime Gold Metal Flake" which is a pretty good match for the green-gold color of the shirts.
 
In fact, in the remastered versions of the episodes the "gold" tunics are identifiably avocado green.

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x14/balanceofterror070.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x14hd/balanceofterrorhd033.jpg

Sorry, I don't see it. In one print, there's a slight greenish tinge, but they still appear gold to me. Certainly not avocado green!

I see no green at all in those images, they look completely gold colored to me.
 
Yep. The avocado has flesh that is a goldish green. ;)

Many people say this still pic is close to the actual colour:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37203498@N00/245792798/sizes/o/

Yes, and in fact that color is close to what's visible on many of the first-season Remastered episodes (haven't paid real close attention to the later ones, sorry - there are only a few that I adore after the first season. And the third season is a different fabric altogether). Spock's tunic is also visibly somewhat closer in that shot to the "old colonial grey" that it actually was than the light blue that it usually appeared on TV.

And "avocado" is simply a color name usually denoting a pale yellow-green, rather than a direct reference to the actual fruit - just as Theiss often referred to the red of the TOS tunics as "apple red," when in fact real apples come in all kinds of shades. :lol:

And all color names are necessarily imprecise, of course, which is why various color-matching systems exist for printing, painting, film processing and so forth. Try buying "navy blue" fabric sometime - you'll be presented with colors ranging from black or nearly black (close to actual American Navy uniforms) to a somewhat-darker-than-medium blue.

I've seen several actual early screen-worn TOS uniforms myself, BTW. The color is as I've described it. :p
 
[Bender]And I bet it's about to get a lot more confusing![/Bender]

Honestly, I don't see green in those pictures. But I've been wrong before (shocking as that may seem) so I decided to do a quick analysis and see what the computer thinks. (Time well spent, I'm sure.)

So I took the image that, if I squinted reaaaaly hard, looked slightly greener than the other. Below are color samples taken from all over those uniforms, in places that I thought green might be lurking, unseen. As green so often does.

Behold, and be amazed:
greenoryellowle7.png


The bar of color on the left is what the computer calls pure green, in varying shades. The bar on the right is what the computer calls pure yellow, again, in different shades.

Is it just me or does #6 yellow look slightly greenish? :lol:

Anyway, after taking many samples I ended up with 16, only two of them look even slightly green to my eyes. #1, and #11. So I then asked the computer what it thinks of #1 and #11.

The following is the result. Honestly I half expected #1 to have SOME green value:

greenoryellow2le5.png


Well, as you can see:

#1 is sitting right smack on the yellow part of the wheel. It's not even a little green.

#11 is actually leaning towards the orange side of the yellow part of the wheel. D'oh!

So...can someone point me in the direction of a green pixel on that picture? Because I can't seem to find it.
 
[Bender]And I bet it's about to get a lot more confusing![/Bender]

Honestly, I don't see green in those pictures. But I've been wrong before (shocking as that may seem) so I decided to do a quick analysis and see what the computer thinks. (Time well spent, I'm sure.)

So I took the image that, if I squinted reaaaaly hard, looked slightly greener than the other. Below are color samples taken from all over those uniforms, in places that I thought green might be lurking, unseen. As green so often does.

Behold, and be amazed:
greenoryellowle7.png


The bar of color on the left is what the computer calls pure green, in varying shades. The bar on the left is what the computer calls pure yellow, again, in different shades.

Is it just me or does #6 yellow look slightly greenish? :lol:

Anyway, after taking many samples I ended up with 16, only two of them look even slightly green to my eyes. #1, and #11. So I then asked the computer what it thinks of #1 and #11.

The following is the result. Honestly I half expected #1 to have SOME green value:

greenoryellow2le5.png


Well, as you can see:

#1 is sitting right smack on the yellow part of the wheel. It's not even a little green.

#11 is actually leaning towards the orange side of the yellow part of the wheel. D'oh!

So...can someone point me in the direction of a green pixel on that picture? Because I can't seem to find it.
Geek.



:p
 
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