Unfortunate implications of Star Trek IV, or: an un-recognised way that Kirk is a massive jerk.

[UssGlenn]

Scotty actually said, "maybe he invented it" like he didn't know, I'd expect Scotty to know the guy's name, where he lived, the date of the discovery, and so on.

That's how it goes in the Novelization

The police would find Gillian's abandoned truck in the park but no evidence beyond that, and probably just assume that she was the victim of a carjacking or a kidnapping. The case would stay open, but no new evidence would ever present itself. She'd be just another woman in San Francisco who disappeared without any explanation, like that Amy Robbins woman in 1979.

They would find fingerprints from Kirk and Spock, which they would never be able to match to anyone.

 

[DonIago]

George and Gracie would have been murdered by that whaling boat.

They had no future.

They were safe to take.-

The fate of the whaling ship however?

Their revenue fell short, which might have lead to bankruptcy, and a dip in the market.

Perhaps George and Gracie were the Edith Keelers of 1986 and they changed the future by not dying in the present.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

They would find fingerprints from Kirk and Spock, which they would never be able to match to anyone.

Not at Taylor's apartment, as they were never there. And there'd be so many people going through the Cetacean Institute every day that I doubt you could get any clear prints for anyone. Maybe in her truck. But yeah, they wouldn't pop up in any database, which to the 20th century cops, would only mean that they didn't have a record.

Apparently @Greg Cox is the only one who got my initial joke, anyway.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

They were the people she was last seen with. I pity Kirk's lookalike ancestor if he happened to be in the vicinity at the time.

Imagine if they did an Ancestry DNA test of Kirk or Spock's DNA samples and discovered that one of the people who had taken the test was supposedly the great-great-great grandparent of the perp...*minds blown*

 

[Marsden]

They were the people she was last seen with. I pity Kirk's lookalike ancestor if he happened to be in the vicinity at the time.

Imagine if they did an Ancestry DNA test of Kirk or Spock's DNA samples and discovered that one of the people who had taken the test was supposedly the great-great-great grandparent of the perp...*minds blown*

And Jackson Roykirk doesn't get to create Nomad and TMP isn't a retread plot after all, It's brilliant!

 

[MAGolding]

Everyone remember when Kirk was going to leave Gillian Taylor in 1986? This may have been talked about before, but I'm rewatching The Voyage home and thinking about it just made my jaw drop. I'd like to explore the implications of it with two scenarios. All the facts I'm presenting are taken from Memory Alpha.

First scenario:
Kirk knew about the rise of Khan in 1992 and the eugenics wars. Maybe it was like the real world conflict in the middle east with groups like ISIS, but also encompassing India and China with militant groups actually succeeding in forming new nation states with social darwinism instead of religion as the primary driver. Whatever the case, thirty million people died in that conflict in the Trek universe, which may have included people in western countries.

Second scenario:
Kirk knew about World War III. Catherine Hicks, the actress who played Gillian is 67 years old as of 2019. That means she was 34 in 1986. For the sake of argument, let's assume Dr. Taylor was also 34 in The Voyage Home. In the Trek universe, the third world war started in 2026, ended in 2053, involved nuclear weapons, and had a death toll of 600 million people. I will restate: Kirk would have had some basic knowledge of this. Assuming Gillian was still alive at the ripe old age of 74 and wasn't vaporized in a nuclear exchange in those 27 years of war, she and her family including any children and grandchildren she might have had, would likely have died a slow painful death from radiation poisoning, living long enough to see the utter collapse of humanity and the glorious age of the post-atomic horror. She wouldn't have lived long enough to see the light at the end of the tunnel with Zefram Cochrane's warp drive and the arrival of the Vulcans.

And Kirk was happy to let Gillian live through those events. What in the goddamn.

This is the kind of thing that happens when you build a fictional world up to be so large with such a detailed history, and just have too much history built in so that everyone who writes stories for it can't possibly keep track of everything in that world. It relies on the audience not knowing all the history and details so that they can buy into each self-contained story and enjoy it for what it is. Sometimes it really hurts my brain to be a nerd.

This is illogical. You assume that all the Earth dates are Anno Domini or Common Era dates despite the fact that they are not specified as such. Further, it would be reasonable to assume that all Earth dates are Anno Domini or Common Era dates except for the fact that the Earth history dates are so contradictory that they must be given in different calendars.

Therefore, the United Earth Government must change the official United Earth calendar every few years to satisfy various pressure groups, and whenever that happens the year number goes up or down by decades, centuries, or millennia, and then people must make a lot of jokes about how much older or younger they just got.

So if someone mentions a date in one series that has a higher number than a date mentioned in another series, that does not necessarily mean that the first date was after the second date, because they could be given in different calendars.

Star Trek Earth history dates are thus mixed up. So it is uncertain when events happened or will happen in the alternate universe of Star Trek.

And the lists of world wars seems to change between TOS and Star Trek: First Contact. In "Bread and Circuses" there is a comparison of Roman Planet and Earth history:

MCCOY: Next he'll be telling us he prefers it over Earth history.
SPOCK: They do seem to have escaped the carnage of your first three world wars, Doctor.
MCCOY: They have slavery, gladiatorial games, despotism.
SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty seven million who died in your third. Shall I go on?

In Star Trek: First Contact:


DATA: According to our astrometric readings we're in the mid twenty-first century. From the radioactive isotopes in the atmosphere I would estimate we have arrived approximately ten years after the Third World War.
RIKER: Makes sense. Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left. Six hundred million dead. No resistance.

And:

PICARD: A missile complex? ...The date? Mister Data, I need to know the exact date.
DATA: April fourth, two thousand sixty-three.
PICARD: April fourth?
RIKER: The day before First Contact.

Six hundred million dead in Picard's Third World War is about times 16.21 as many as the thirty seven million dead in Spock's Third World War.

Since Spock's words leave open the possibility that Earth had more than three world wars, it is logical to assume that the lists of world wars used in Picard's era leaves out one or more wars that are included in the list used in Kirk's era. Presumably one or more wars would have been left off the list used in Picard's era because they weren't considered destructive, bloody, or widespread enough.

In fact, in "Space Seed" the Eugenics Wars are described:

SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.

And:

SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships.

If the Eugenics wars in the 1990s of the "Space Seed" calendar and the Third World War in the 2050s of the Picard era calendar ware both considered to be the last world war on Earth before Earth achieved peace, and if one involves whole populations being bombed out of existence and the other 600 million dead and most cities destroyed, it seems logical to conclude that they were the same conflict described with different names. And thus the dates when they happened would have to be the same date expressed in different calendars.

It seems likely that two different Earth calendars were used in "Space Seed" and in Star Trek: First Contact, and quite possible that a third Earth calendar was used in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.

So it would be impossible to accurately estimate Gillian's age in any of the future wars mentioned in various Star Trek productions.

In the Trek universe, the third world war started in 2026, ended in 2053, involved nuclear weapons, and had a death toll of 600 million people.

That is the first time I ever heard it claimed that the Third World War lasted for about 27 years. Furthermore, once ICBMS are launched, atomic wars done't last for years. Once the first nuclear missile is launched, an atomic war will probably last a lot more like 27 hours or 27 minutes than 27 years until the last warhead explodes. O f course the dying in the aftermath of the war could take many times 27 years.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Basically Gillian is Sarah Conner. The Whales are John Conner. The Probe is Skynet. and Kirk is Kirk Reese. But who is the T800? (The whale ship I guess)

 

[inflatabledalek]

On the predestination thing, isn't "Who invented Transparent Aluminium" one of the questions on Spock's exam at the start? I don't recall if you can see the answer, but that's a cheeky bit of foreshadowing at least.

 

[Ssosmcin]

On the predestination thing, isn't "Who invented Transparent Aluminium" one of the questions on Spock's exam at the start? I don't recall if you can see the answer, but that's a cheeky bit of foreshadowing at least.

Sadly, no...

SPOCK: Computer. Resume testing. ...T'plana-Hath, matron of Vulcan philosophy
TEST COMPUTER VOICE: What is the molecular formula of aluminum sulfide crystal?
TEST COMPUTER VOICE: ...White Queen to section five, grid six. Queen takes Knight. Rook takes Queen. White pawn to section five, grid seven, pawn takes rook. Checkmate.
TEST COMPUTER VOICE: ...Correct. What significant contribution to bioengineering was made on the Loonkerian outpost on Klendth?
SPOCK: The universal atmospheric element compensator.
TEST COMPUTER VOICE: Evaluate and conclude. A starship's sensors indicate it is being pursued so closely that it occupies the same space as its pursuer.
TEST COMPUTER VOICE: ...Correct. Identify object and it's cultural significance.
SPOCK: Klingon mummification glyph.
TEST COMPUTER VOICE: What was the principle historical event on the planet Earth in the year nineteen eighty-seven?
TEST COMPUTER VOICE: ...Correct. What is Kiri-kin-tha's first law of metaphysics?
SPOCK: Nothing unreal exists.
TEST COMPUTER VOICE: ...Correct. Adjust the sine wave of this magnetic envelope so that anti-neutrons can pass through it but anti-gravitons cannot.
TEST COMPUTER VOICE: ...Correct. What is the electronic configuration of gadolinium?
TEST COMPUTER VOICE: ...Correct. How do you feel? ...How do you feel?
SPOCK: I do not understand the question.

You're probably thinking of the "gadolinium" question.

 

[Relayer1]

The business with Edith Keeler and a few other incidents showed Kirk what changes to the timeline could do.

This.

 

[Gov Kodos]

This.

Paradoxical but removing Gillian and/or the whales might have been what ensured the extinction. I figured thats why the judges looked so grim at the end. They wanted to nail Kirk's hide to the wall but he saved civilization again.