• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Unfair review?

gomtuu20

Commander
Red Shirt
While I certainly respect and understand that movie reviews are, by nature, a statement of one's opinion, I can't help but take exception with the recent Trek Today Retro Review of The Undiscovered Country. The reviewer was exactly right about how it was an allegory about the cold war and the break up of the Soviet Union. This is the very heart of the film. I agree with her questioning of Spock displaying a temper in the sickbay scene. This outburst would have been justified if it was Saavik instead of Valeris. It it had been Saavik, the emotional impact of that scene on the audience could have been much more effective and been an enhancement of the movie, rather than an incongruous distraction. In fact, the mind rape scene would have taken on a whole new level of significance if this would have been the character of Saavik. I don't necessarily agree with her revulsion to tis scene, but I can certainly understand where she is coming from. Where I do take exception is her conclusion to the movie: "The moral of the film seems to be that while science and technology may provide the means for intercultural communication and galactic peace, they’re not of much use without the fancy weaponry that has always been at the heart of Star Trek’s contradictory optimistic yet pragmatic view of the future." I think this actually turns the message of the movie on it's head. In spite of all the technology and weapons, it is the HATE and MISTRUST that must be surpassed. It is a bigotry that has been fanned into flame by years and years of hostility. It is not easy to trust someone that has been your enemy for 30 years. Those who cannot get past these may resort to the use of weaponry and deceit. Of course, if there weren't any space battles, the movie would have been pretty boring.
Another thing that bugs me are the complaints about the floating blood and how how cheesy this effect looks. Most of the reviews where I see this criticism are from younger reviewers who were not adults when the film came out. These special effects were on the cutting edge when this film came out. The floating blood is one of the (many) things that created a buzz about this movie. It is one of the reasons the film did as well as it did. The "morphing" effect had been seen in some commercials and videos before the movie came out, but it was still very new at the time too.
Kirk's "Let them die" line was something Shatner did not want to do. He was promised that they would show him saying that, and then immediately sort of waving it off and dismissing as appropriate. The director had it cut off after the line and broke his promase to Shatner. But let's remember that many people at the time were saying the same thing about the Soviet Union. Think about our modern day Islamic terrorists. Many people would not be upset if they were all wiped out. In World War II, many would not have had a problem will all of the people of Japan or all the people of Germany dying. I'm not saying any of this is a right attitude. I'm just saying that it would not necessarily be out of character for Kirk to have these feelings. It would not necessarily be out of character for him to verbalize these feelings when he was upset about being chosen as a sort of ambassador to a group of people he had been battling for decades. And David's death would not make that less likely, it would make it more likely.
I do have a lot of criticisms of the film:
>Spock just happened to have one of those patches in his hand while on the bridge?, Does he always have one of these with him?
>The character of Valeris that should have been Saavik. This was Spock's protege that he intended to replace him, but we've never seen her before?
>The blast that goes through the saucer section from the bottom but that goes through horizontally in the intereior.
>They have books on klingon but that information is not in the computer?
>The way Scotty knew which room to burst into to shoot the sniper.
>The way Valeris was so easily duped by the call of the court recorder to sickbay (what was she going to do, kill everyone in the room?)
> and several other nitpicky points, but I'll stop.
In spite of all its many flaws, I think this is my favorite of all the movies. The excellent dramatic music, the special effects, the humor, the drama and the thinly-veiled social message were all intriguing and engaging. This film had heart! This was a terrific send off for the original cast.
Overall, ST6 is my favorite of all the films, in spite of its many flaws.
 
If you edit you post to include paragraph breaks at recent intervals, I might read it. ;)
 
If you edit you post to include paragraph breaks at recent intervals, I might read it. ;)
Thank you for that most inciteful and helpful analysis. The word "brilliant" will most certainly be applied to it for years.
 
>The character of Valeris that should have been Saavik. This was Spock's protege that he intended to replace him, but we've never seen her before?

I had no problem with this. There was about a decade between The Voyage Home and The Undiscovered Country, plenty of time for Spock to mentor another protege.
 
Thank you for that most inciteful and helpful analysis. The word "brilliant" will most certainly be applied to it for years.

Or you could thank him and edit your post to make it more legible. ;)

I'm not sure why you seem annoyed by the review. "Unfair"? Lots of people here have had similar criticisms - both the reviewer's points and yours - for years. The film would have been much stronger, and less predictable, had it featured Saavik, not Valeris, but it would have been terrible seeing Saavik's betrayal of her Starfleet colleagues played out.
 
If you edit you post to include paragraph breaks at recent intervals, I might read it. ;)
Thank you for that most inciteful and helpful analysis. The word "brilliant" will most certainly be applied to it for years.

Sorry dude, but Gaith is right. There's no way I'm going to slog through that endless sea of unbroken sentences trying to figure out what your point is. It's just too hard on the eyes, man.
 
If you edit you post to include paragraph breaks at recent intervals, I might read it. ;)
Thank you for that most inciteful and helpful analysis. The word "brilliant" will most certainly be applied to it for years.

Sorry dude, but Gaith is right. There's no way I'm going to slog through that endless sea of unbroken sentences trying to figure out what your point is. It's just too hard on the eyes, man.

Usually I don't critique people's stylistic choices, but I've got to admit both of these guys are right. Paragraphs would make reading that at least a possibility.
 
I'll fix it:

While I certainly respect and understand that movie reviews are, by nature, a statement of one's opinion, I can't help but take exception with the recent Trek Today Retro Review of The Undiscovered Country.

The reviewer was exactly right about how it was an allegory about the cold war and the break up of the Soviet Union. This is the very heart of the film. I agree with her questioning of Spock displaying a temper in the sickbay scene. This outburst would have been justified if it was Saavik instead of Valeris. It it had been Saavik, the emotional impact of that scene on the audience could have been much more effective and been an enhancement of the movie, rather than an incongruous distraction.

In fact, the mind rape scene would have taken on a whole new level of significance if this would have been the character of Saavik. I don't necessarily agree with her revulsion to this scene, but I can certainly understand where she is coming from.

Where I do take exception is her conclusion to the movie: "The moral of the film seems to be that while science and technology may provide the means for intercultural communication and galactic peace, they’re not of much use without the fancy weaponry that has always been at the heart of Star Trek’s contradictory optimistic yet pragmatic view of the future."

I think this actually turns the message of the movie on it's head. In spite of all the technology and weapons, it is the HATE and MISTRUST that must be surpassed. It is a bigotry that has been fanned into flame by years and years of hostility. It is not easy to trust someone that has been your enemy for 30 years. Those who cannot get past these may resort to the use of weaponry and deceit. Of course, if there weren't any space battles, the movie would have been pretty boring.

Another thing that bugs me are the complaints about the floating blood and how how cheesy this effect looks. Most of the reviews where I see this criticism are from younger reviewers who were not adults when the film came out. These special effects were on the cutting edge when this film came out. The floating blood is one of the (many) things that created a buzz about this movie. It is one of the reasons the film did as well as it did.

The "morphing" effect had been seen in some commercials and videos before the movie came out, but it was still very new at the time too.
Kirk's "Let them die" line was something Shatner did not want to do. He was promised that they would show him saying that, and then immediately sort of waving it off and dismissing as appropriate. The director had it cut off after the line and broke his promise to Shatner.

But let's remember that many people at the time were saying the same thing about the Soviet Union. Think about our modern day Islamic terrorists. Many people would not be upset if they were all wiped out. In World War II, many would not have had a problem will all of the people of Japan or all the people of Germany dying.

I'm not saying any of this is a right attitude. I'm just saying that it would not necessarily be out of character for Kirk to have these feelings. It would not necessarily be out of character for him to verbalize these feelings when he was upset about being chosen as a sort of ambassador to a group of people he had been battling for decades. And David's death would not make that less likely, it would make it more likely.


I do have a lot of criticisms of the film:

>Spock just happened to have one of those patches in his hand while on the bridge?, Does he always have one of these with him?

>The character of Valeris that should have been Saavik. This was Spock's protege that he intended to replace him, but we've never seen her before?

>The blast that goes through the saucer section from the bottom but that goes through horizontally in the interior.

>They have books on Klingon but that information is not in the computer?

>The way Scotty knew which room to burst into to shoot the sniper.

>The way Valeris was so easily duped by the call of the court recorder to sickbay (what was she going to do, kill everyone in the room?)

> and several other nitpicky points, but I'll stop.

In spite of all its many flaws, I think this is my favorite of all the movies. The excellent dramatic music, the special effects, the humor, the drama and the thinly-veiled social message were all intriguing and engaging. This film had heart! This was a terrific send off for the original cast.

Overall, ST6 is my favorite of all the films, in spite of its many flaws.
 
If you edit you post to include paragraph breaks at recent intervals, I might read it. ;)
Thank you for that most inciteful and helpful analysis. The word "brilliant" will most certainly be applied to it for years.

Sorry dude, but Gaith is right. There's no way I'm going to slog through that endless sea of unbroken sentences trying to figure out what your point is. It's just too hard on the eyes, man.


Ditto. I gave up after about six lines.
 
The film would have been much stronger, and less predictable, had it featured Saavik, not Valeris, but it would have been terrible seeing Saavik's betrayal of her Starfleet colleagues played out.

It would have been terrible but at the same time so good for the drama. It would have been devastating and great at the same time. Daaaamn I wish it had been Saavik, even though she is one of my favorite minor characters.
 
The audience would have felt as betrayed as the characters. We would have felt Spock's anger too. As it was, it had about as much emotional impact as the death of a red shirt.
 
The audience would have felt as betrayed as the characters. We would have felt Spock's anger too. As it was, it had about as much emotional impact as the death of a red shirt.

It worked fine for me, I understood that this was someone close to Spock and her betrayal hurt him.
 
Saavik was meant to be the character originally- but then the TPTB got worried and decided to bring in a different character. I love Saavik's character and I would have hated the writers for making her a traitor, but at the same time it would be awesome writing that pulls at your heart strings. Just to have Saavik back one last time in any capacity would have been good and I could have accepted the betrayal.

People forget Spock is half human and it's easier to slip form the discipline when he is emotionally compromised. I don't understand the criticism of the mind rape scene. I don't even consider it that. Amongst Vulcans, telepathy has almost become another form of communication. No one would say it's wrong for a Betazoid to use their natural ability to seek out the information. Picard would have ordered Troi if she were a strong telepath. Yes Valeris resisted, but Spock was getting information imperative to preventing an interstellar war!!! Surely that calls for extraordinary measures. Spock wasn't accessing embarrassing personal memories- just information necessary to save the alpha quadrant for years of bloody war.

I don't think it's against the Vulcan ways, although I would be surprised to have seen this happen in the TOS. Look at it another way, Spock has been hurt by the betrayal of his trust and friendship, he's very pissed off right now, despite how well he can suppress his emotions.

Not the best review, but I respect Michelle's opinion.
 
The only way I would have accepted Saavik back was if Kirstey Alley reprised the role. I never cared for Robin Curtis' portrayal at all and I believe it was Kim Cattral who said she didn't want to be the third actress to portray the character onscreen.
 
It's still better than the Plinkett reviews. Some annoying guy who rants on about pizza rolls.
 
The only way I would have accepted Saavik back was if Kirstey Alley reprised the role. I never cared for Robin Curtis' portrayal at all and I believe it was Kim Cattral who said she didn't want to be the third actress to portray the character onscreen.


It's the reverse for me. I could never see Kirstie Alley as a Vulcan. but Robin Curtis made a perfect one in my eyes. She was a perfect match to Spock's somber meditative style.

Valeris didn't seem like a Vulcan to me either, but neither did Spock in certain scenes.
 
The only way I would have accepted Saavik back was if Kirstey Alley reprised the role. I never cared for Robin Curtis' portrayal at all and I believe it was Kim Cattral who said she didn't want to be the third actress to portray the character onscreen.


It's the reverse for me. I could never see Kirstie Alley as a Vulcan. but Robin Curtis made a perfect one in my eyes. She was a perfect match to Spock's somber meditative style.


Originally, Saavik was supposed to be half-Vulcan/half-Romulan. Which is how Kristie Alley played her, and explains the crying. When Robin Curtis was cast to replace Alley, Nimoy changed the character to be a full blooded Vulcan. This is one of the reasons I didn't like the portrayal of Saavik by Curtis, she was basically a different character and so just felt wrong to me. So if the Valeris role was originally going to be Saavik I'd imagine Meyer would have wanted her to be half-Vulcan/half-Romulan again. :rofl: That wouldn't have been confusing or anything, especially if she was played by a third actor (Kim Cattral)!


Valeris didn't seem like a Vulcan to me either, but neither did Spock in certain scenes.


I've always got the feeling, and this is totally just me here with no indications from the film makers, that Valeris was really a Romulan (or at least a sympathizer) posing as a Vulcan to infiltrate Starfleet. This would fit with how we know Romulans have dealt with the Federation in other instances.

And I don't know if you ever caught this before but Spock isn't a Vulcan, he's half-Vulcan/half-Human! :p ;)
 
One of the reasons that it was not Saavik is that Roddenberry threw a fit about the idea. Not that that makes a lot of sense, it was Nick Meyer who created the character of Saavik in Wrath of Khan and was the director of Undiscovered Country. Meyer apparently really resented Roddenberry's objection. Another less than compelling reason was money. It was Alley that they wanted for the role but didn't want to pay her. That is an aspect of the pre-Abrams commitment (or lack of commitment) to Star Trek that drives me crazy.

And no offense, but add my vote to breaking up that monologue at the top of the thread. Man.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top