Tzenkethi

[Nerroth]

If there was a problem with the use of Kzinti in a Trek-derived setting, it hasn't stopped ADB from using their own take on the Kzinti (cat ears, no tails, sentient females, Kzinti/Kzintis instead of Kzin/Kzinti, two genetically-related, yet utterly despised, rival races...) in their own works.

And even though the Kzinti Hegemony in the Star Fleet Universe is a very different entity to that seen in other settings, it's still one which has part of its derivation used with permission...

 

[Therin of Andor]

Nerroth said:
If there was a problem with the use of Kzinti in a Trek-derived setting, it hasn't stopped ADB from using their own take on the Kzinti

That's precisely why the design had to change. Larry Niven wanted to negotiate a license for a "Ringworld" RPG, and the continued appearance of the kzinti - without Niven's approval - in the semi-licensed (from Franz Joseph) "Star Fleet Battles" war game, was preventing a sale, so it was important that a significant distinction be drawn immediately.

The kzinti were rewritten as the M'dok Hegemony, another antagonistic felinoid race, for a TNG novel, "The Captain's Honor", and the Mirak Star League, yet another antagonistic race for the "Starfleet Command" series, a computer game based on the old "Star Fleet Battles".

They were the K'zinti in the novel "Battlestations!", and Kznti in "Star Trek Maps". The kzinti also lost their batwing ears in a Niven-approved sequel to "The Slaver Weapon" (TAS), a co-written script (with Sharman diVono) for the LA Times' post-TMP comic strip, "The Wristwatch Plantation".

 

[seekertwo]

Belar said:
Here's the Memory Alpha (canon) article about the Tzenkethi:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tzenkethi

And the Memory Beta (non-canon) article about them:
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Tzenkethi

Interestingly the Memory Alpha article suggests that they might be connected to TAS' Kzinti. Maybe they look cat-like, too. But writer Robert Hewitt Wolfe (who co-wrote DS9's "The Adversary") saw them as "heavily armored lizard things".

Why not just call them "GORN"?.....

 

[Sci]

MadBaggins said:

Babaganoosh said:

Kegek said:
Gene Roddenberry retconned the Kzinti out, not Niven.

AFAIK, Niven wrote in the beginning of Man-Kzin Wars IV that he no longer wanted the Kzinti used in the Trekverse.

WHAT GIVES HIM THE RIGHt.

The fact that he owns the Kzin because he created them (before they ever appeared in TAS, mind you) and holds their copyright? It's sorta like how the Walt Disney Company has the same right to control whether or not Mickey Mouse is used in a movie, or how Stephen King has the right to control the use of, say, the character Carrie, etc.

seekertwo said:

Belar said:
Here's the Memory Alpha (canon) article about the Tzenkethi:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tzenkethi

And the Memory Beta (non-canon) article about them:
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Tzenkethi

Interestingly the Memory Alpha article suggests that they might be connected to TAS' Kzinti. Maybe they look cat-like, too. But writer Robert Hewitt Wolfe (who co-wrote DS9's "The Adversary") saw them as "heavily armored lizard things".

Why not just call them "GORN"?.....

"Heavily armored lizard things" could just as easily apply to the Jem'Hadar or the Cardassians. Trek has no shortage of mammalian species -- why not a few variations on lizards, too, instead of only having the Gorn?

 

[137th Gebirg]

Babaganoosh said:

Kegek said: It was Roddenberry who declared the events of TAS uncanon, thus writing them off the franchise altogether.

And nowadays, TAS is gradually working itself back into canon, so it's all good.

Yep, and if Enterprise had seen a fifth season, we would have seen the return of the Kzin, as CG models had already been worked up for the episode.

 

[Anwar]

seekertwo said:

Belar said:
Here's the Memory Alpha (canon) article about the Tzenkethi:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tzenkethi

And the Memory Beta (non-canon) article about them:
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Tzenkethi

Interestingly the Memory Alpha article suggests that they might be connected to TAS' Kzinti. Maybe they look cat-like, too. But writer Robert Hewitt Wolfe (who co-wrote DS9's "The Adversary") saw them as "heavily armored lizard things".

Why not just call them "GORN"?.....

Because if they did they'd have to pay the writer of "Arena' royalties for the usage. So instead they just make anew race that's almost the same thing but cheaper to use.

It's the "Tom Paris/Nic Locarno" thing all over again.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

137th Gebirg said:

Yep, and if Enterprise had seen a fifth season, we would have seen the return of the Kzin, as CG models had already been worked up for the episode.

That ENT episode is now being reworked by the writer Jimmy Diggs, who is friends with Niven and has his blessing, iirc, to use the Kzin, as a New Voyages episode. Once again, due to film rights issues to the Known Space 'verse, the Kzin will apparently be renamed and their batwing ears altered. (see: Trekmovie NV update, scroll down )

Diggs has also previously pitched an animated Trek movie featuring the Kzin. (see: Star Trek: Lions of the Night )

 

[Kegek]

I doubt name-dropping the Gorn would be a problem. Quite aside from the fact Gene L. Coon is dead, they name dropped Cestus III, and included several gratuituous references to the Tholians oN DS9's run.

So presumably they simply didn't want these guys to be the Gorn; but some new race which we can assume looks cool because we don't see it.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Kegek said:
I doubt name-dropping the Gorn would be a problem. Quite aside from the fact Gene L. Coon is dead, they name dropped Cestus III, and included several gratuituous references to the Tholians oN DS9's run.

Simply name-dropping an easter egg in a script (eg Tholians in "Nemesis") doesn't grant a previous writer (or the deceased estate) a royalty payment. It's only if a previously-created character reappears on screen. Name-dropping a planet doesn't earn anyone anything.

Name-dropping a previously-created Star Trek character in a licensed tie-in doesn't earn the creating writers anything, nor is permission needed - except supposedly Harlan Ellison, who has claimed that his contract was somehow different to everyone else's, and Paramount and CBS are supposed to ask first before using Edith Keeler or the Guardian of Forever, even for a tie-in. (We don't know what the result of his claim against the novel trilogy "Crucible" was, and we probably won't.)

The kzinti are a different situation to the Gorn, though. Niven says he only "lent" them to Filmation for TAS (and to LA Times' comic strip), so Paramount doesn't own the kzin, and aren't supposed to use them in other ST tie-ins without permission.

 

[137th Gebirg]

middyseafort said:

137th Gebirg said:

Yep, and if Enterprise had seen a fifth season, we would have seen the return of the Kzin, as CG models had already been worked up for the episode.

That ENT episode is now being reworked by the writer Jimmy Diggs, who is friends with Niven and has his blessing, iirc, to use the Kzin, as a New Voyages episode. Once again, due to film rights issues to the Known Space 'verse, the Kzin will apparently be renamed and their batwing ears altered. (see: Trekmovie NV update, scroll down )

Diggs has also previously pitched an animated Trek movie featuring the Kzin. (see: Star Trek: Lions of the Night )

VERY cool! :thumbsup:

I love fan productions when they're done well.