Typhon Pact: Political Analysis

[flemm]

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. She seems like she was written in as a dream president during the Bush years - not sure if she was supposed to be a (Hilary) Clinton or Obama analogue or a combination of both. She seems to be written almost entirely like the president from The West Wing with her Sorkin-esque dialogue and it's just grating to me every time she's involved in a story.

If they start making her less perfect in the Typhon Pact storylines, that'd be great. She's just such a perfect, awesome, dream of a president it's just obnoxious.

I actually agree with this. Whenever a narrative believes too strongly that character "X" is super awesome, I tend to react adversely to it.

Beyond that, I find the Trek Lit tendency to do pastiche of characters from other franchises annoying whenever it occurs, whether it be The West Wing, Buffy or House.

 

[Sci]

Bacco must be the most wearisome character ever commited to paper.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. She seems like she was written in as a dream president during the Bush years - not sure if she was supposed to be a (Hilary) Clinton or Obama analogue or a combination of both.

Her first appearance was in A Time for War, A Time for Peace, which was published in 2004. Keith R.A. DeCandido would have written it, therefore, probably mostly in 2003. Barack Obama did not become nationally well-known until he delivered the keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. As such, it is ridiculous to claim that Bacco is based on President Obama.

Hillary Clinton and Nannietta Bacco have almost nothing in common other than being women, so I'm not sure why you'd equate the two.

KRAD has said that he based Bacco in part on former Texas Governor Anne Richardson, in part on the late Molly Ivins, but mostly upon his late great-grandmother.

If they start making her less perfect in the Typhon Pact storylines, that'd be great. She's just such a perfect, awesome, dream of a president it's just obnoxious.

They already did. Her actions in Destiny, while understandable, weren't always particularly wonderful, and her actions in Zero Sum Game have certainly prompted a lot of controversy. And that's ignoring the fact that she was never a perfect President in the first place -- there are people who legitimately criticize some very important decisions she made in Articles of the Federation.

ETA:

For my money, I really enjoy Bacco and think we haven't seen enough of her. She has, after all, only appeared in eight books (A Time for War, A Time for Peace; Articles of the Federation; Destiny I: Gods of Night; Destiny II: Mere Mortals; Destiny III: Lost Souls; TNG: Losing the Peace; A Singular Destiny; and Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game). Realistically, given the sorts of events TrekLit often depicts, the Federation President ought to appear far more often.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. She seems like she was written in as a dream president during the Bush years - not sure if she was supposed to be a (Hilary) Clinton or Obama analogue or a combination of both. She seems to be written almost entirely like the president from The West Wing with her Sorkin-esque dialogue and it's just grating to me every time she's involved in a story.

She was written to be an analogue for Jed Bartlet from The West Wing, who was in turn written as a "dream president during the Bush years." Bacco's debut was in A Time for War, A Time for Peace, which was written in 2004, before Barack Obama had even been elected to the Senate. (In West Wing terms, Matt Santos, Bartlet's successor, was the Obama analogue.)

And how anyone could find Sorkinesque dialogue grating is beyond me.

Very few people can write Sorkinesque dialog as well as Sorkin does. It can easily come across as a parody of what it's trying to achieve.

 

[Bishop76]

She was written to be an analogue for Jed Bartlet from The West Wing, who was in turn written as a "dream president during the Bush years." Bacco's debut was in A Time for War, A Time for Peace, which was written in 2004, before Barack Obama had even been elected to the Senate. (In West Wing terms, Matt Santos, Bartlet's successor, was the Obama analogue.)

And how anyone could find Sorkinesque dialogue grating is beyond me.

Thanks for the character history - much appreciated. Seeing as she was a few years pre-Obama, was there some Clinton influence at all (she was clearly bucking after the Presidency at the time), or was Bacco mostly pulled from Bartlet?

And the reason I don't like Sorkinesque dialogue is that it is very hard to make it like Sorkin dialogue as kkoz pointed out.

 

[Sci]

She was written to be an analogue for Jed Bartlet from The West Wing, who was in turn written as a "dream president during the Bush years." Bacco's debut was in A Time for War, A Time for Peace, which was written in 2004, before Barack Obama had even been elected to the Senate. (In West Wing terms, Matt Santos, Bartlet's successor, was the Obama analogue.)

And how anyone could find Sorkinesque dialogue grating is beyond me.

Thanks for the character history - much appreciated. Seeing as she was a few years pre-Obama, was there some Clinton influence at all (she was clearly bucking after the Presidency at the time), or was Bacco mostly pulled from Bartlet?

Hillary Clinton was not bucking after the presidency in 2004. She was not a candidate that year. She only unofficially started her campaign in late 2006, and officially kicked it off in early 2007.

As I said above, KRAD has indicated that Bacco was primarily based upon his late great-grandmother, and secondarily upon Anne Richardson and Molly Ivins.

 

[Cap'n Crunch]

For my money, I really enjoy Bacco and think we haven't seen enough of her. She has, after all, only appeared in eight books (A Time for War, A Time for Peace; Articles of the Federation; Destiny I: Gods of Night; Destiny II: Mere Mortals; Destiny III: Lost Souls; TNG: Losing the Peace; A Singular Destiny; and Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game). Realistically, given the sorts of events TrekLit often depicts, the Federation President ought to appear far more often.

She also appears in Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts of Empire, so nine books.

 

[Sci]

For my money, I really enjoy Bacco and think we haven't seen enough of her. She has, after all, only appeared in eight books (A Time for War, A Time for Peace; Articles of the Federation; Destiny I: Gods of Night; Destiny II: Mere Mortals; Destiny III: Lost Souls; TNG: Losing the Peace; A Singular Destiny; and Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game). Realistically, given the sorts of events TrekLit often depicts, the Federation President ought to appear far more often.

She also appears in Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts of Empire, so nine books.

Fair enough -- haven't finished that one yet.

 

[Bishop76]

She also appears in Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts of Empire, so nine books.

She was also in The Needs of the Many, the alt-future tie-in to the MMO, which was my first experience with her - in an interview where she actually used the terms "shock and awe" to disparage the president who had come before her. It was really blatant modern partisanship in a Trek novel and it may just be what turned me off the character so much.

 

[Sci]

She also appears in Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts of Empire, so nine books.

She was also in The Needs of the Many, the alt-future tie-in to the MMO, which was my first experience with her - in an interview where she actually used the terms "shock and awe" to disparage the president who had come before her. It was really blatant modern partisanship in a Trek novel and it may just be what turned me off the character so much.

... so the fact that one author, in a game tie-in book set in a completely different timeline than the books in which that character normally appears, years after the character was actually created and appeared, used the character in a way you disagreed with, made you dislike the entire character in all its other appearances?

 

[Bishop76]

That's exactly what I'm saying. It was a first impression, and like most first impressions, it can color your thoughts about something. She was also written as the same character who had the same experiences in the novel-verse by an author who writes in that same time period, so I don't think it's that ridiculous. But thank you for continuing to be an insufferable prick.

On a completely related topic, how do you add people to your ignore list?

 

[Sci]

That's exactly what I'm saying. It was a first impression, and like most first impressions, it can color your thoughts about something. She was also written as the same character who had the same experiences in the novel-verse by an author who writes in that same time period, so I don't think it's that ridiculous.

I really don't think that's a reasonable reaction at all. Apart from Needs, Bacco was never written or intended to be written as a mouthpiece for Michael A. Martin's current-day politics, nor as an "attack-Bush" mechanism. You're projecting a creative decision another author made years after the character was created onto all the characters' appearances.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

I know I should keep reading before I pass, or anyone, for that matter, any final judgement on the Typhon Pact. All I'm saying is that so far, it doesn't look like the Typhon Pact has any noble intentions. The TP was primarilly formed because each of its members had some sort of beef with the Federation; they are in essence disgruntled workers.

What a Federocentric point of view. The Pact members have no obligation to view the Federation as benevolent -- they see it in terms of their own interests, and a steadily expanding hegemonic power isn't something anyone wants to have on their borders. Combined with the collapse of the Cardassian Union and Romulan Empire, which had been holding the Federation in check, the strategic advantage of the slipstream drive, and new expansionist programs like Full Circle and the Luna-class explorers, can you blame the Tholians and Gorn for being worried?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

She also appears in Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts of Empire, so nine books.

She was also in The Needs of the Many, the alt-future tie-in to the MMO, which was my first experience with her - in an interview where she actually used the terms "shock and awe" to disparage the president who had come before her. It was really blatant modern partisanship in a Trek novel and it may just be what turned me off the character so much.

... so the fact that one author, in a game tie-in book set in a completely different timeline than the books in which that character normally appears, years after the character was actually created and appeared, used the character in a way you disagreed with, made you dislike the entire character in all its other appearances?

And lets face it a bad tie-in to the game at that seeing as all Dev backstory information contridicts the hell out of it.

 

[Bishop76]

Listen, I'm going to make this easy.

I don't like the character. It's an opinion. Clearly, an opinion shared by some, not by others. I gave my reasons which are perfectly valid FOR ME. I don't have graphs, stats or numbers for you and you can't use rational arguments to try to make me like a character that I don't like. There's no reason to even continue this discussion with you beyond this post, so I won't.

 

[Sci]

I know I should keep reading before I pass, or anyone, for that matter, any final judgement on the Typhon Pact. All I'm saying is that so far, it doesn't look like the Typhon Pact has any noble intentions. The TP was primarilly formed because each of its members had some sort of beef with the Federation; they are in essence disgruntled workers.

What a Federocentric point of view. The Pact members have no obligation to view the Federation as benevolent -- they see it in terms of their own interests, and a steadily expanding hegemonic power isn't something anyone wants to have on their borders. Combined with the collapse of the Cardassian Union and Romulan Empire, which had been holding the Federation in check, the strategic advantage of the slipstream drive, and new expansionist programs like Full Circle and the Luna-class explorers, can you blame the Tholians and Gorn for being worried?

Which is to say nothing of the fact that Federation Starfleet officers installed the last two Klingon Chancellors. I don't blame Typhon Pact members for not necessarily believing that the Federation is benevolent and would never act aggressively.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

* It's good to know that there is someone here who sees the Romulan government and military, for the thugs they are, and reinforcing the idea that the UFP is nowhere near as disgusting as the Romulans, and by extension, the Typhon Pact(except the Breen civilains, of course).

That doesn't necessarily mean the Federation is automatically right and the Romulans wrong. And when looked at from an outside point of view, the Federation isn't as immaculate as we'd like to think -- do you think the average Breen believes that all those Admiral McCrazypants are rogues who weren't acting as part of Starfleet?

 

[Sci]

Listen, I'm going to make this easy.

I don't like the character. It's an opinion. Clearly, an opinion shared by some, not by others. I gave my reasons which are perfectly valid FOR ME.

But it's still based on an unfair assessment of the purpose of the character. You seem to have this notion that Bacco was just there to be Star Trek's Barack Obama/Hillary Clinton and to badmouth Bush, and that's just not true.

Now, if you don't like the character, hey, fine. You'll notice I didn't say anything about your assessment of KRAD's Sorkin-esque dialogue as not working for you, because that's completely subjective.

But to assume that the bad way a character was used once reflects the entire creative purpose behind that character is just unfair, and attributes inaccurate motives to the character's creators.

I don't have graphs, stats or numbers for you

I don't even know what the hell this is in reference to.

 

[MNM]

But it's still based on an unfair assessment of the purpose of the character. You seem to have this notion that Bacco was just there to be Star Trek's Barack Obama/Hillary Clinton and to badmouth Bush, and that's just not true.

Now, if you don't like the character, hey, fine. You'll notice I didn't say anything about your assessment of KRAD's Sorkin-esque dialogue as not working for you, because that's completely subjective.

But to assume that the bad way a character was used once reflects the entire creative purpose behind that character is just unfair, and attributes inaccurate motives to the character's creators.

If it's "fine" that he doesnt like a character, do you really need to write three long sentenaces saying why he is still wrong to in his view?

 

[David cgc]

^ The vehemence of the opinion seems out of step with its foundation. It's like if someone said that Darth Vader couldn't possibly be a credible cinematic villain when the only Star Wars movie they saw was "The Phantom Menace."

"This Darth Vader guy is so annoying. He's always all 'Yippie!' and 'You're purty like an angel.' Worst bad guy ever. I hope they get rid of him and replace him with a decent antagonist. Someone seven feet tall, all dressed in black, with a booming voice who'll choke a dude if he even looks at him the wrong way. That's a bad guy!"

 

[Bishop76]

^ I have read several other novels with her in them and my interpretation of the character still stands. It may have been colored by that first read, but no one else has done anything with the character to change my interpretation of her.