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Typhon Pact: Political Analysis

PrimeDirective

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
The last time I was on here, roughly around April of 2010, I argued that the Typhon Pact didn't have the same noble and peaceful intentions that the Federation was built on, and strives to uphold everyday. After reading 314 pages of the 334 in Zero Sum Game, I hold to the argument made last april. If the Typhon Pact was merely another political rival of the UFP, then it would've approached the UFP through diplomacy, to see if it would share the slipstream drive knowledge with it, but it didn't do that. Instead, it resorted to espoinage and thievery to obtain the slipstream knowledge.
 
Two books into a four book cycle called Typhon pact and there hasn't been very much Typhon pact in them at all.

TBH,given the membership of the TP,it really looks like a Treklit version of a league of super-villainy.I'm not expecting much in the wayof expanding on the reasons for each member races decision to enrol in the TP.The pact seems primarily to exist to present the Federation with another "big bad" sufficiently different from the Borg.Hopefully we might get some discussion of the Feds place in the universe,it's policies and it's direction.
BTW,I wish there was a mechanism for us,the readers to vote for the next Fed president(like the old Legion of superheroes).Bacco must be the most wearisome character ever commited to paper.
 
I know I should keep reading before I pass, or anyone, for that matter, any final judgement on the Typhon Pact. All I'm saying is that so far, it doesn't look like the Typhon Pact has any noble intentions. The TP was primarilly formed because each of its members had some sort of beef with the Federation; they are in essence disgruntled workers.
 
^ I don't think you'll be saying that at the end of Rough Beasts of Empire.
 
TBH,given the membership of the TP,it really looks like a Treklit version of a league of super-villainy.I'm not expecting much in the wayof expanding on the reasons for each member races decision to enrol in the TP.The pact seems primarily to exist to present the Federation with another "big bad" sufficiently different from the Borg.

That really wasn't the intent behind their creation. It's right there in A Singular Destiny -- Keith's idea was that the Pact would be like a new Federation, not an anti-Federation. A number of fractious, independent worlds deciding it was in their mutual best interest to form a cooperative union -- that's no different from the Federation at its beginnings (or at least the Coalition of Planets). Naturally there's a potential for competition/conflict with the UFP, and that has been the emphasis of the first couple of books in this series, but the intent behind the concept was for something more nuanced than a "league of super-villainy."


All I'm saying is that so far, it doesn't look like the Typhon Pact has any noble intentions. The TP was primarilly formed because each of its members had some sort of beef with the Federation; they are in essence disgruntled workers.

It was formed because they no longer wanted to be vulnerable to the whims of a far more powerful nation. That doesn't make them evil, any more than, say, European nations often dislike the way the United States strongarms them into following its lead. The Pact founders wanted to be able to stand as equals with the UFP so that they'd be powerful enough to protect their own interests, immune to the kind of strongarm tactics Bacco used to get them to join in the allied fleet against the Borg. However well-intentioned the UFP may try to be, it's still disproportionately powerful, and other societies may have legitimate disagreements with the way it wields that power. It's not unreasonable for them to want to balance it with power of their own. (And frankly it's quite ethnocentric to describe these other sovereign nations as "disgruntled workers," as if their rightful place were to be subordinate to Federation authority.)

Aside from that, the Gorn had no outstanding "beef" with the Federation; indeed, it was only about seven years earlier that Picard and Data had saved the rightful ruling clan of the Gorn Hegemony from extermination and restored it to power. If anything, the Gorn had every reason to see the Federation as an ally -- but even they could see its sheer size and power as potentially threatening if left unbalanced.

Similarly with the Romulans -- after the alliance against the Dominion, and after Picard helped defeat the usurper Shinzon, I'd say UFP-Romulan relations have been better in the past few years than at any time in history. True, the UFP is on fairly friendly terms with Donatra's Imperial Romulan State, and the Romulan Star Empire sees the IRS as an enemy, so they'd be unlikely to be too friendly with the UFP. Still, not everything is about the Federation.

Same for the Kinshaya. Their "beef" is not with the UFP, but with the Klingons -- and frankly they have good reason, given that the Klingons destroyed their homeworld. It's hardly clear-cut who the "bad guys" are there.
 
If the Typhon Pact was merely another political rival of the UFP, then it would've approached the UFP through diplomacy, to see if it would share the slipstream drive knowledge with it, but it didn't do that. Instead, it resorted to espoinage and thievery to obtain the slipstream knowledge.

The Federation would never stoop to such a lev...

kirkasarommie.jpg


Oh.

Aaron McGuire
 
Both the TP and the UFP blew up miltary instellations but onlt the Fedeartion agents also blew up a civilian train. Points to the TP on this one. Also, I don't recall the TP agent shooting someone in the head "just to be sure" and killing a room full of civilian technicans. The Federation is definatly on the dark side of the morality this time out.
 
The picture does depict a Starfleet officer stealing Romulan technology, but you have to understand that diplomacy wouldn't have worked with them. The Romulans(the government and the military, Tal Shiar, included), don't see diplomacy as a way of dealing with others, even as part of a coalition, they aren't very cooperative with their so-called "allies"(they implicitly warn the Breen in Zero Sum Game, that if they don't hurry up their construction of the slipstream prototype, they will take the technology away from them).
 
Bacco must be the most wearisome character ever commited to paper.

I'm starting to feel that way too. I actually find myself feeling worn out after reading any segment or chapter with her in it.

Just to balance this out, I think she's pretty awesome. I thought her chapters in Zero Sum Game were more or less the only ones that had any life to them, in terms of characterization.
 
Both the TP and the UFP blew up miltary instellations but onlt the Fedeartion agents also blew up a civilian train. Points to the TP on this one. Also, I don't recall the TP agent shooting someone in the head "just to be sure" and killing a room full of civilian technicans. The Federation is definatly on the dark side of the morality this time out.

You forgot to mention that Bashir and Douglas blew up the train after they evacuated all of the civilians, and with regards to Bashir shooting and killing civilians, Starfleet officers were not the only ones killed when the starbase that the slipstream schematics were stolen from, blew up. Did the Breen spy or the Romulan warship that was its ride home, have any remorse or display hesitation when killing civilians? The Federation wasn't going to play nice, after enemies infiltrated its territory, and mercilessly killed hundreds of people. The Typhon Pact struck first; you don't sit back and let it slide by when it happens.
 
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TBH,given the membership of the TP,it really looks like a Treklit version of a league of super-villainy.I'm not expecting much in the wayof expanding on the reasons for each member races decision to enrol in the TP.The pact seems primarily to exist to present the Federation with another "big bad" sufficiently different from the Borg.

That really wasn't the intent behind their creation. It's right there in A Singular Destiny -- Keith's idea was that the Pact would be like a new Federation, not an anti-Federation. A number of fractious, independent worlds deciding it was in their mutual best interest to form a cooperative union -- that's no different from the Federation at its beginnings (or at least the Coalition of Planets). Naturally there's a potential for competition/conflict with the UFP, and that has been the emphasis of the first couple of books in this series, but the intent behind the concept was for something more nuanced than a "league of super-villainy."


All I'm saying is that so far, it doesn't look like the Typhon Pact has any noble intentions. The TP was primarilly formed because each of its members had some sort of beef with the Federation; they are in essence disgruntled workers.

It was formed because they no longer wanted to be vulnerable to the whims of a far more powerful nation. That doesn't make them evil, any more than, say, European nations often dislike the way the United States strongarms them into following its lead. The Pact founders wanted to be able to stand as equals with the UFP so that they'd be powerful enough to protect their own interests, immune to the kind of strongarm tactics Bacco used to get them to join in the allied fleet against the Borg. However well-intentioned the UFP may try to be, it's still disproportionately powerful, and other societies may have legitimate disagreements with the way it wields that power. It's not unreasonable for them to want to balance it with power of their own. (And frankly it's quite ethnocentric to describe these other sovereign nations as "disgruntled workers," as if their rightful place were to be subordinate to Federation authority.)

Aside from that, the Gorn had no outstanding "beef" with the Federation; indeed, it was only about seven years earlier that Picard and Data had saved the rightful ruling clan of the Gorn Hegemony from extermination and restored it to power. If anything, the Gorn had every reason to see the Federation as an ally -- but even they could see its sheer size and power as potentially threatening if left unbalanced.

Similarly with the Romulans -- after the alliance against the Dominion, and after Picard helped defeat the usurper Shinzon, I'd say UFP-Romulan relations have been better in the past few years than at any time in history. True, the UFP is on fairly friendly terms with Donatra's Imperial Romulan State, and the Romulan Star Empire sees the IRS as an enemy, so they'd be unlikely to be too friendly with the UFP. Still, not everything is about the Federation.

Same for the Kinshaya. Their "beef" is not with the UFP, but with the Klingons -- and frankly they have good reason, given that the Klingons destroyed their homeworld. It's hardly clear-cut who the "bad guys" are there.

* As I recall, the Klingons destroyed the Kinshaya homeworld, only after they killed a bunch of Klingons on one of their colonies. Like President Kennedy said during the Cuban Missle Crisis: " An attack on any nation in the Western Hemisphere will be the same as an attack on the United States, prompting a full retaliatory attack." The UFP and the Klingons are very staunch allies, so a problem that either government has, is the problem of the other.
 
TBH,given the membership of the TP,it really looks like a Treklit version of a league of super-villainy.I'm not expecting much in the wayof expanding on the reasons for each member races decision to enrol in the TP.The pact seems primarily to exist to present the Federation with another "big bad" sufficiently different from the Borg.

That really wasn't the intent behind their creation. It's right there in A Singular Destiny -- Keith's idea was that the Pact would be like a new Federation, not an anti-Federation. A number of fractious, independent worlds deciding it was in their mutual best interest to form a cooperative union -- that's no different from the Federation at its beginnings (or at least the Coalition of Planets). Naturally there's a potential for competition/conflict with the UFP, and that has been the emphasis of the first couple of books in this series, but the intent behind the concept was for something more nuanced than a "league of super-villainy."


All I'm saying is that so far, it doesn't look like the Typhon Pact has any noble intentions. The TP was primarilly formed because each of its members had some sort of beef with the Federation; they are in essence disgruntled workers.

It was formed because they no longer wanted to be vulnerable to the whims of a far more powerful nation. That doesn't make them evil, any more than, say, European nations often dislike the way the United States strongarms them into following its lead. The Pact founders wanted to be able to stand as equals with the UFP so that they'd be powerful enough to protect their own interests, immune to the kind of strongarm tactics Bacco used to get them to join in the allied fleet against the Borg. However well-intentioned the UFP may try to be, it's still disproportionately powerful, and other societies may have legitimate disagreements with the way it wields that power. It's not unreasonable for them to want to balance it with power of their own. (And frankly it's quite ethnocentric to describe these other sovereign nations as "disgruntled workers," as if their rightful place were to be subordinate to Federation authority.)

Aside from that, the Gorn had no outstanding "beef" with the Federation; indeed, it was only about seven years earlier that Picard and Data had saved the rightful ruling clan of the Gorn Hegemony from extermination and restored it to power. If anything, the Gorn had every reason to see the Federation as an ally -- but even they could see its sheer size and power as potentially threatening if left unbalanced.

Similarly with the Romulans -- after the alliance against the Dominion, and after Picard helped defeat the usurper Shinzon, I'd say UFP-Romulan relations have been better in the past few years than at any time in history. True, the UFP is on fairly friendly terms with Donatra's Imperial Romulan State, and the Romulan Star Empire sees the IRS as an enemy, so they'd be unlikely to be too friendly with the UFP. Still, not everything is about the Federation.

Same for the Kinshaya. Their "beef" is not with the UFP, but with the Klingons -- and frankly they have good reason, given that the Klingons destroyed their homeworld. It's hardly clear-cut who the "bad guys" are there.

* As I recall, the Klingons destroyed the Kinshaya homeworld, only after they killed a bunch of Klingons on one of their colonies. Like President Kennedy said during the Cuban Missle Crisis: " An attack on any nation in the Western Hemisphere will be the same as an attack on the United States, prompting a full retaliatory attack." The UFP and the Klingons are very staunch allies, so a problem that either government has, is the problem of the other.
I have to admit that the Gorn are the most friendly of the TP memebers, but in joining a group whose members are aggressive and have illusions of conquest and wealth, they showed that they don't have very good judgement.
Lastly, the UFP is the best group to join because they not only want peace and the chance to explore the galaxy, they are willing to help those that want peace and order, even if they have been dealt a heavy military and civilian blow to their infrastructure and operations(like they were dealt during the Borg invasion of 2381). There is a part in Zero Sum Game where a Romulan warbird commander(I think his name is Marius), privately complains about how he thinks that his people shouldn't be associated with beings that he considers to be less important than the Romulans.
 
I forgot to mention that the Breen aren't the thugs that I thought they were before I began reading Zero Sum Game, well at least the civilians seem to be interested in living peaceful lives. I think the governments and the militaries of the TP are the villans.
 
If the Typhon Pact was merely another political rival of the UFP, then it would've approached the UFP through diplomacy, to see if it would share the slipstream drive knowledge with it, but it didn't do that. Instead, it resorted to espoinage and thievery to obtain the slipstream knowledge.

The Federation would never stoop to such a lev...

kirkasarommie.jpg


Oh.

Aaron McGuire

:lol: Well, to be fair -- Kirk didn't kill civilians or blow up the Romulan vessel. The Federation also only wanted that technology to study it and plan defenses, since the treaty with Romulus has the Federation opt-out of actually using cloaking devices.
 
If the Typhon Pact was merely another political rival of the UFP, then it would've approached the UFP through diplomacy, to see if it would share the slipstream drive knowledge with it, but it didn't do that. Instead, it resorted to espoinage and thievery to obtain the slipstream knowledge.

The Federation would never stoop to such a lev...

kirkasarommie.jpg


Oh.

Aaron McGuire

:lol: Well, to be fair -- Kirk didn't kill civilians or blow up the Romulan vessel. The Federation also only wanted that technology to study it and plan defenses, since the treaty with Romulus has the Federation opt-out of actually using cloaking devices.

* It's good to know that there is someone here who sees the Romulan government and military, for the thugs they are, and reinforcing the idea that the UFP is nowhere near as disgusting as the Romulans, and by extension, the Typhon Pact(except the Breen civilains, of course).
 
I just wanted to apoligize for the double postng of my response to something that Christopher Bennett wrote, in which he made it seem like the formation of the Typhon Pact wasn't based on creating political and military grief for the UFP, its allies, and Starfleet. I wasn't aware of the reposting until I saw it for myself; again, sorry:)
 
Bacco must be the most wearisome character ever commited to paper.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. She seems like she was written in as a dream president during the Bush years - not sure if she was supposed to be a (Hilary) Clinton or Obama analogue or a combination of both. She seems to be written almost entirely like the president from The West Wing with her Sorkin-esque dialogue and it's just grating to me every time she's involved in a story.

If they start making her less perfect in the Typhon Pact storylines, that'd be great. She's just such a perfect, awesome, dream of a president it's just obnoxious.
 
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. She seems like she was written in as a dream president during the Bush years - not sure if she was supposed to be a (Hilary) Clinton or Obama analogue or a combination of both. She seems to be written almost entirely like the president from The West Wing with her Sorkin-esque dialogue and it's just grating to me every time she's involved in a story.

She was written to be an analogue for Jed Bartlet from The West Wing, who was in turn written as a "dream president during the Bush years." Bacco's debut was in A Time for War, A Time for Peace, which was written in 2004, before Barack Obama had even been elected to the Senate. (In West Wing terms, Matt Santos, Bartlet's successor, was the Obama analogue.)

And how anyone could find Sorkinesque dialogue grating is beyond me.
 
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