TWOK

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Disco, Oct 17, 2014.

  1. Smellmet

    Smellmet Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2013
    Location:
    The Northern Shires of England.
    They just haven't got the detailed polish of what's possible with todays technology, but I think they still hold up well, and are better than some of the effects in 3, 4 and all of 5.

    I never find myself rolling my eyes and having to overlook the visuals in the movie in the same way I do in TFF, they still look decent and serve the story very well.
     
  2. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    King Daniel Beyond
    While I think the FX in WoK hold up very well today, it is quite obvious that the ships are superimposed over the pea-soup nebula rather than inside it. Contrast with ENT: "The Expanse" where we see the Enterprise and Klingon ships inside a nebula, and it's noticeably three dimensional with pockets of cloud between the ships and camera.
     
  3. Franklin

    Franklin Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Location:
    In the bleachers
    Had to wait thirty years for that to happen again.

    I saw TWOK in the theater when I was 22 and walked out thinking I'd seen one of the best Trek stories, ever. It still holds up fairly well. I'd say it's pace is what shows its age compared to most action-adventure films, today. It's a little slow in places. I could also see how younger folks coming to the movie years later could think of it as "quaint."
     
  4. enterprisecvn65

    enterprisecvn65 Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2014
    I think by quaint most people who would say that means because it doesn't fill up every single minute with some kind of over the top cgi battle sequence or guys fighting, and actually pays attention to things like plot and character development, it doesn't measure up to today's "Standards" of action-sci/fi films.

    I used to fell into that trap, of course I was 9. Like I said I used to believe "Return of the Jedi" was way better than "The Empire Strikes Back." and "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" was better than "Raiders of the Lost Ark" because they contained more pure actions and Empire and Raiders had the gall to actually take time to have scenes that gave depth and greater understanding to the film and themes in it.

    Of course I grew up and realized that because of those scenes, amongst other things, Empire and Raiders are FAR superior films. Apparently on the other hand Rick Berman and George Lucas' had the opposite revelation of mine and decided that films that crammed as much fast paced CGI action and fighting as possible and kept any human elements to a minimum were the way to go to make great sci-fi films and as a result we get scenes like the Enterprise-E and the Scimitar flying around like the Blue Angels and shooting at each other non stop for 30 minutes with no real consequences until they run out of ammo, instead of giant starships like the Enterprise and Reliant moving in a way ships of their size would and where every exchange of fire, although far fewer, actually causes destruction and death and results in future consequences. Or things like whipping out the light sabers every 5 minutes for whatever reason, instead of showing them quickly once or twice on the first 90 mins leading up and building suspense to the point towards the end where they get them out for some serious business.

    And it seems many of today's movie goers have adopted that philosophy too and they don't out grow it when they become adults.

    I'm not particularly into romance films but I'm one of those crazy people that think "Casablanca" is a better film than say "When Harry met Sally" and it didn't need Ingrid Bergman having a simulated orgasm scene in it to make it a "Classic" by modern standards. And the fact she didn't means it's dated and quaint.

    God forbid Berman or Lucas ever decide to make a film about the battleship Bismarck. It would probably be called BISMARCK!!!!! complete with exclmation points. The final battle will be the Bismarck and Hood speeding around like hydrofoils firing their main guns every 5 seconds and never taking any real damage (They'll just drop the Prince of Wales and Prinz Eugen as being superfluous to the scene) until the ships run out of ammo and then the commanders will spend 10 minutes making cute quips at each other before the ships end up besides each other and the crews engage in an all out street brawl and the two captains will end up on the bridge in a fist fight making even more cute quips before the Hood's captain impales the Bismarck's captain on a steam pipe or something, sets the Bismarcks self destruct and sails the Hood away at 100 knots victorious as the Bismarck blows up in a praxis type explosion. And the audience will love it and say how great it was and, if they ever saw "Sink the Bismarck" they say it is so dated and inferior to BISMARCK!!!!! and people unfamiliar with the actual event will ask "Why does that film get it wrong by showing the Hood blowing up in the first 10 minutes after engaging the Bismarck, that's not how it happened in BISMARCK!!!!!. Lucas or Berman certanily wouldn't play fast and loose with something like that just to cram in more CGI action and fights.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2014
  5. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    :lol:

    Wait, why am I laughing? It's so true, it's sad.

    It seems to be an out-growth of 'sequel mentality', where the next installment is made to be 'bigger', 'better', 'more action-packed' than its predecessor. The problem is that by movie no. 3, this trend naturally can only spiral into the ridiculous. Even stand-alone films are made this way now, designed as if they are the second, 'bigger' film in the non-existant series.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Escaped from Trumpistan
    I don't believe this is true, at all. He already had the standing sets constructed from TMP, the models for the Enterprise and Regula One, the footage of the Klingon cruisers and the trip to the Enterprise.

    If he had to start from scratch, The Wrath of Khan would've cost a heck of a lot more to make. Plus, TMP had all the costs of prior failed Trek projects (Planet of the Titans, Phase II) added into its total cost.
     
  7. enterprisecvn65

    enterprisecvn65 Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2014
    Yeah I think that mentality started with the Burton/Schumacher series where. First movie it was the joker alone, then it was catwoman, penguin and chris walken, then it was robin added and two face (worst portrayal ever of a comic book villan BTW) and riddler, then it was Poison Ive, Mr. Freeze and I don't remember who else since I walked out after 10 mins and it turned into such an embarrassment that in other ages and cultures Schumacher would have been stoned for showing something so awful.

    You could argue Star Wars started because in Star Wars everything was built up to one big climax: Stop the Death Star. In Empire there were two threads: Luke and Vader dueling and Leia and co escaping from Cloud City, in Jedi it was three: Vader, Luke and the Emperor, the Battle on Endor and the Battle outside the Death star. In Phantom menace it was 4: The gunfight in Naboo city, The big fight in the fields outside Naboo city, the battle in space between the defense force and droid fighters and finally the light saber duel between Qui Gon, Obi Wan and Maul.

    If you ever want to watch some hilarious footage try to find the film where Lucas shows a cut of the Phantom Menace to his top lieutenants for the first and watch their reactions during the final sequences Rick Callum looks stunned, Ben Burtt tries to explain to Lucas how it doesn't work because in the sapce of a few minutes go from a main hero getting killed, to comedic with Jar Jar in his battle, to some gigantic battle in space and so on before he realizes he's wasting his time. Lucas admits he "May have gone a little too far in some places" (understatement of the year) but says he can't major parts of the film now but they can "Diminish its effects" though he never explains how......It really is awesome to see George, at least on some level for at least a small amount of time, realize he may have lost his touch....Of course that realization doesn't last.
     
  8. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    I think all Star Trek Movies have to have some shouting to be good:

    THIS IS CETI ALPHA FIVE!!!!!!!!!
    KHAAAAAAAAAN!!!!
    EMERGENCY POWEEEEER!!! TO THE THRUSTERS!!!!!
    I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF YOU!!!!
    THERE WILL BE NO PEACE AS LONG AS KIRK LIVES!!!!
    DONT WAIT FOR THE TRANSLATION!!!! ANSWER ME NOW!!!!

    See? the bad ones don't have so much exclamation points.

    (I also noticed Klingons shout a lot)
     
  9. Indysolo

    Indysolo Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2001
    Location:
    Sunny California
    Okay, I'll bite.

    NOOOOOOOO!!!! (from TMP)

    and

    SHOOT HIM!!!!! (from TFF)
     
  10. publiusr

    publiusr Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Location:
    publiusr
    It owed a quite a bit to movies like Alien. Remember, space was becoming dangerous. THE THING came out the same year.

    I would even go so far as to say STII-TWOK is a type of horror film.

    The slasher movie was at its height there in the early 1980s after all. A lot of red in this film. Khan was it's Kane Hodder.

    We never really saw Enterprise hurt--the way Reliant gashed her--PSYCHO like.

    Reliant's nacelle wasn't just blown off--it was amputated.

    STII could just as easily had been in Fangoria as Starlog.