Do you just think Takei just plays it up a bit for publicity?
TWOK deleted scene question
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I agree this is a bit of a dust-up over nothing. Apparently in TOS days Shatner was a bit miffed that Spock was the break-out character, but I doubt he ever thought Sulu was in danger of stealing the limelight.
The scene as originally written was a bit clumsy. "You deserve it" was a very patronising line and best removed. And why would Kirk "cut your orders personally"? Does he moonlight in the promotions & postings department? I wish that "always an excuse for nostalgia" had gone too - that's pretty awkward.
The finalised scene also benefits from that nice added moment with McCoy.
The films really suffered from this requirement to give all the minor fan-fave characters something to do. The nonsensical "have to steal the Enterprise" plot element of TSFS was a result of this. Occasionally they played an important part in the story (Chekov in TWOK) but mostly they were just taking up screen space.
The scene as originally written was a bit clumsy. "You deserve it" was a very patronising line and best removed. And why would Kirk "cut your orders personally"? Does he moonlight in the promotions & postings department? I wish that "always an excuse for nostalgia" had gone too - that's pretty awkward.
The finalised scene also benefits from that nice added moment with McCoy.
The films really suffered from this requirement to give all the minor fan-fave characters something to do. The nonsensical "have to steal the Enterprise" plot element of TSFS was a result of this. Occasionally they played an important part in the story (Chekov in TWOK) but mostly they were just taking up screen space.
Here's a little something I've been putting together that might be of interest for this thread. Using the shooting script, I've been trying to make a transcription as screen-accurate as possible. I still need to double-check this against the Release Dialogue Continuity script, but it's getting there. I've used the information from Grant's viewing of the workprint to transcribe the deleted scenes that haven't been shown anywhere else.
Grant - if you've got time, would you be able to spot-check the deleted scenes so that I have the right dialogue?
Star Trek II - Workprint Transcript
Grant - if you've got time, would you be able to spot-check the deleted scenes so that I have the right dialogue?
Star Trek II - Workprint Transcript
Interesting.
I can go thru my audio and find the exact wording on the deleted scenes and send them in as I go.
I have had the shooting script since 1989.
I did a continuity script by notations--making changes as I gathered more info as what was shot. I lost the script in a flood a while back, but I know most of the script by heart.
I saw the workprint after I lost my script, but even so I have lots of notes on the different versions.
I noted 35 significant cuts/alternate versions from the final shooting script to the the theatrical, the ABC-TV version, the D.E. and the workprint.
I know that virtually everything that was in the script was shot as scripted--albeit with tons of minor changes that take place from take to take and last minute very small deltetions and additions.
I have this funky table of the cut scenes, but it is gigantic and would be an enormous post.
Let me think........
I can go thru my audio and find the exact wording on the deleted scenes and send them in as I go.
I have had the shooting script since 1989.
I did a continuity script by notations--making changes as I gathered more info as what was shot. I lost the script in a flood a while back, but I know most of the script by heart.
I saw the workprint after I lost my script, but even so I have lots of notes on the different versions.
I noted 35 significant cuts/alternate versions from the final shooting script to the the theatrical, the ABC-TV version, the D.E. and the workprint.
I know that virtually everything that was in the script was shot as scripted--albeit with tons of minor changes that take place from take to take and last minute very small deltetions and additions.
I have this funky table of the cut scenes, but it is gigantic and would be an enormous post.
Let me think........
Firebird first note.........
After Kirk's line "With Spock in command..." AND his next line---"By the end of the month..".....................
they cut away (as they do in the final cut) to exterior VFX of the shuttle.
So they always intended to separate those two portions of Kirk speaking.
In other words...Kirk rhetorically asking about finding a command and him mentioning that Sulu is getting his own ship in not awkwardly strung together as it would appear in the script. He's finishing one thought and then starting another.
So you could separate those two lines with something like
EXT. SHUTTLE CONTINUES APPROACH TO DOCKING BAY
or some script direction.
But the real problem with creating a continuity script of the work-prink is that the workprint, while containing a ton of cut material from the shooting script, IT DOES NOT contain everything that we got in the final cuts of the Theatrical and D.E.
There is about 3 minutes of material from the theatrical and D.E. that is not in the workprint. This tells me that at the stage the workprint was made--they were aware cuts had to be made to make the movie a certain length, BUT they weren't sure what should be in and what should be out.
If they had kept in everything they had shot---the movie would be about 7-9 minutes longer than the D.E.
But clearly they weren't going to release the movie at 124-126minutes.
Before the workprint comes a "rough assemblage" of ALL shot material. That's where every last line they shot is strung together.
That would have been about 135 minutes because the scenes had not been tightened up.
They can shorten a scene without cutting a single line by cutting out pauses between the lines.
In the workprint, some scenes have the exact same line reading used in the released versions of the movie, but with longer pauses in-between each line.
So, in theory, they could have tightened up the movie from 135 minutes to something 5 or 6 minutes shorter--without cutting a single line.
Also in the workprint they had much more use of stock footage from TMP--including following the Enterprise as it leaves dock all the way to Jupiter as seen in TMP.
Thank god they didn't include any more stock footage than they did.
My continuity script (if you want to call it that) contained all known lines that were filmed regardless of which version (if any) they were included in.
Even better than the workprint would be to see the rough cut that came before it.
Who knows if that even exists.
But the workprint does and using that I know that the entire script (with tiny exceptions was shot)
Looking at the script at "Trekcore"---you can see all of the cut stuff.
My holy grail would be an extensive deleted scenes section that contains all the cut material "framed" with the released material so you could see exactly how it fir into place.
I've seen that in a lot of Blu-rays where the new material is in B & W and the released material is in color (or vice-versa) so you can see exactly where it was supposed to be.
After Kirk's line "With Spock in command..." AND his next line---"By the end of the month..".....................
they cut away (as they do in the final cut) to exterior VFX of the shuttle.
So they always intended to separate those two portions of Kirk speaking.
In other words...Kirk rhetorically asking about finding a command and him mentioning that Sulu is getting his own ship in not awkwardly strung together as it would appear in the script. He's finishing one thought and then starting another.
So you could separate those two lines with something like
EXT. SHUTTLE CONTINUES APPROACH TO DOCKING BAY
or some script direction.
But the real problem with creating a continuity script of the work-prink is that the workprint, while containing a ton of cut material from the shooting script, IT DOES NOT contain everything that we got in the final cuts of the Theatrical and D.E.
There is about 3 minutes of material from the theatrical and D.E. that is not in the workprint. This tells me that at the stage the workprint was made--they were aware cuts had to be made to make the movie a certain length, BUT they weren't sure what should be in and what should be out.
If they had kept in everything they had shot---the movie would be about 7-9 minutes longer than the D.E.
But clearly they weren't going to release the movie at 124-126minutes.
Before the workprint comes a "rough assemblage" of ALL shot material. That's where every last line they shot is strung together.
That would have been about 135 minutes because the scenes had not been tightened up.
They can shorten a scene without cutting a single line by cutting out pauses between the lines.
In the workprint, some scenes have the exact same line reading used in the released versions of the movie, but with longer pauses in-between each line.
So, in theory, they could have tightened up the movie from 135 minutes to something 5 or 6 minutes shorter--without cutting a single line.
Also in the workprint they had much more use of stock footage from TMP--including following the Enterprise as it leaves dock all the way to Jupiter as seen in TMP.
Thank god they didn't include any more stock footage than they did.
My continuity script (if you want to call it that) contained all known lines that were filmed regardless of which version (if any) they were included in.
Even better than the workprint would be to see the rough cut that came before it.
Who knows if that even exists.
But the workprint does and using that I know that the entire script (with tiny exceptions was shot)
Looking at the script at "Trekcore"---you can see all of the cut stuff.
My holy grail would be an extensive deleted scenes section that contains all the cut material "framed" with the released material so you could see exactly how it fir into place.
I've seen that in a lot of Blu-rays where the new material is in B & W and the released material is in color (or vice-versa) so you can see exactly where it was supposed to be.
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I apologize in advance for multiple posts. Last one before anyone else posts.....
Firebird....
This portion of Khan's speech/rant was in the workprint....
CHEKOV
Captain Kirk was your host! You repaid
his hospitality by trying to steal his
ship and murder him.
KHAN
(moves closer)
And I'll wager he never told you
about his shipmate, the beautiful
and courageous Lieutenant McGivers,
who gave up everything to join me
in exile. OUT OF LOVE. And see how
Admiral Kirk requited her devotion --
She's dead as earth!
The wind howls in the silence. When Khan turns, his
eyes are filled with tears.
KHAN
(continuing)
A plague upon you all.
The part in bold was in the workprint--the rest I'm 99% sure was shot but they were already tightening up some scenes by that point.
Interestingly, the line "A plague upon you all!" was dropped in later after he lifts Chekov up and doesn't get the answer he demands.
I have got to say it gave me chills to hear Khan say McGivers name aloud after all those years--rather than just the "my wife" as he refers to her elsewhere. It really excited the 12 year old in me who remembered Space Seed as the direct forerunner of the movie.
So go ahead if you wish and add the bolded part after Chekov's line and "A plague upon you all!" after Khan says "WHY!"--the second time.
Side note----------
The "A plague upon you all" line is my ringtone for when my boss calls me. Hope he never butt dials me when I'm standing next to him!
Firebird....
This portion of Khan's speech/rant was in the workprint....
CHEKOV
Captain Kirk was your host! You repaid
his hospitality by trying to steal his
ship and murder him.
KHAN
(moves closer)
And I'll wager he never told you
about his shipmate, the beautiful
and courageous Lieutenant McGivers,
who gave up everything to join me
in exile. OUT OF LOVE. And see how
Admiral Kirk requited her devotion --
She's dead as earth!
The wind howls in the silence. When Khan turns, his
eyes are filled with tears.
KHAN
(continuing)
A plague upon you all.
The part in bold was in the workprint--the rest I'm 99% sure was shot but they were already tightening up some scenes by that point.
Interestingly, the line "A plague upon you all!" was dropped in later after he lifts Chekov up and doesn't get the answer he demands.
I have got to say it gave me chills to hear Khan say McGivers name aloud after all those years--rather than just the "my wife" as he refers to her elsewhere. It really excited the 12 year old in me who remembered Space Seed as the direct forerunner of the movie.
So go ahead if you wish and add the bolded part after Chekov's line and "A plague upon you all!" after Khan says "WHY!"--the second time.
Side note----------
The "A plague upon you all" line is my ringtone for when my boss calls me. Hope he never butt dials me when I'm standing next to him!
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^Except he got her name wrong, didn't he? "McGiver" rather than "McGivers." Maybe that's why they cut it (though I suppose they could've simply looped in the correct name).
No, good catch though!
Yes the script says McGiver, but I guess they caught that error by the time shooting came around. I just listened to it--he says McGivers.
Here are the cuts from Act I of TWOK...........
TWOK Act I workprint/script added scenes
1. Saavik's romulan heritage--additional 20 seconds of footage. ----Seen it----a keeper.
2. Kirk tries on glasses and reads label on bottle--additional 13 seconds of footage---seen it---not great, good cut.
3. Chekov's original log entry voice-over--same length--heard it---not nearly as good as final version--good change.
4. Carol & David prologue before the "Don't have kittens" line---additional 17 seconds---seen it---on par with other David material--I'd have left it in.
5. Chekov see child at window---additional 31 seconds---seen it--I like it--nice scare, I'd have left it in.
6. Terrell finds child---addional 11 seconds (net) replaces the part where Terrell kneels next to tank---seen it--I like it
7.Khan mentions Marla---additional 23 seconds---seen it---like it a lot.
8. Khan further describes eels effects---haven't seen it but it was shot, as using pause button, I can see Khan finishing last line of cut portion---totally not needed, audience can see effect for themselves--good cut.
9. Terrell calls Reliant---additional 44 seconds----seen it (longest entirely cut scene from movie) Terrell tricks Reliant into beaming up "guests"---well done but not needed---good cut
10. Sulu's promotion mentioned---additional 15 seconds--seen it---I like it, they promised it t Takei and it wouldn't ---at 15 seconds, bogged down the movie.
11. Spock/Saavik in English---same time---seen it---It was shot in English & later dubbed into Vulcan--I prefer Vulcan version
12. Peter's kinship to Scotty---as seen in D.E.
13. Khan takes command---haven't seen it ---99% sure it was shot. Originally preceded to the "moons of Nibia" speech. Khan mentions how reliant is similar to Enterprise and then he questions Chekov about genesis. It was to have taken place much earlier than where the remaining section ended up. I like the way it reads, but I can't fault them saving the big reveal of Khan on Reliant for after Chekov contacts carol.
14. Extended Chekov/Carol talk---as seen in D.E.
15. Kirk/Saavik alternate turbo-lift---as seen in ABC-TV version---original version plays better on widescreen.
Whew--that's it for the changes from script to theatrical version for Act I of the movie. Added together it was probably 4 minutes of screen-time.
Note of those 15 changes only 2 (8 & 10) are scored sections of the movie.
They could be added back in in some alternate extended "version of the script cut" without having to change any music at all. It almost seems as if the score was done BEFORE the final cut was decided upon and it was easier to remove NON-scored portions than scored portions (and then have to ask Horner to revise the music) Just speculation.
Yes the script says McGiver, but I guess they caught that error by the time shooting came around. I just listened to it--he says McGivers.
Here are the cuts from Act I of TWOK...........
TWOK Act I workprint/script added scenes
1. Saavik's romulan heritage--additional 20 seconds of footage. ----Seen it----a keeper.
2. Kirk tries on glasses and reads label on bottle--additional 13 seconds of footage---seen it---not great, good cut.
3. Chekov's original log entry voice-over--same length--heard it---not nearly as good as final version--good change.
4. Carol & David prologue before the "Don't have kittens" line---additional 17 seconds---seen it---on par with other David material--I'd have left it in.
5. Chekov see child at window---additional 31 seconds---seen it--I like it--nice scare, I'd have left it in.
6. Terrell finds child---addional 11 seconds (net) replaces the part where Terrell kneels next to tank---seen it--I like it
7.Khan mentions Marla---additional 23 seconds---seen it---like it a lot.
8. Khan further describes eels effects---haven't seen it but it was shot, as using pause button, I can see Khan finishing last line of cut portion---totally not needed, audience can see effect for themselves--good cut.
9. Terrell calls Reliant---additional 44 seconds----seen it (longest entirely cut scene from movie) Terrell tricks Reliant into beaming up "guests"---well done but not needed---good cut
10. Sulu's promotion mentioned---additional 15 seconds--seen it---I like it, they promised it t Takei and it wouldn't ---at 15 seconds, bogged down the movie.
11. Spock/Saavik in English---same time---seen it---It was shot in English & later dubbed into Vulcan--I prefer Vulcan version
12. Peter's kinship to Scotty---as seen in D.E.
13. Khan takes command---haven't seen it ---99% sure it was shot. Originally preceded to the "moons of Nibia" speech. Khan mentions how reliant is similar to Enterprise and then he questions Chekov about genesis. It was to have taken place much earlier than where the remaining section ended up. I like the way it reads, but I can't fault them saving the big reveal of Khan on Reliant for after Chekov contacts carol.
14. Extended Chekov/Carol talk---as seen in D.E.
15. Kirk/Saavik alternate turbo-lift---as seen in ABC-TV version---original version plays better on widescreen.
Whew--that's it for the changes from script to theatrical version for Act I of the movie. Added together it was probably 4 minutes of screen-time.
Note of those 15 changes only 2 (8 & 10) are scored sections of the movie.
They could be added back in in some alternate extended "version of the script cut" without having to change any music at all. It almost seems as if the score was done BEFORE the final cut was decided upon and it was easier to remove NON-scored portions than scored portions (and then have to ask Horner to revise the music) Just speculation.
^Isn't there also a scene where the child is on the transporter pad just before the Genesis Device explodes? I saw a photo of the scene anyway. If it had been filmed and actually put in the movie, that would have been quite disturbing. I'm glad they took out all the child scenes.
Correct, but I haven't gotten to Act III yet. Yeah, I'd have left out the kid on the transporter part and just left it to the audience to later think--"hey what happened to the kid?"
Sad, but without rubbing the audiences' face in it by showing the kid with the bomb.............
TWOK Act II script to theatrical deletions/alterations
16. Alternate Regula debate---as seen in D.E.
17. Spock's cabin coda--haven't seen it--possibly not filmed--total mood killer after Spock professes his friendship for Kirk and then talks about going to engineering and talking to Scott--useless.
18. McCoy/Spock debate extended---as seen in D.E.
19. Spock-McCoy debate extended further--Chekov mentioned---additional 11 seconds----seen it. the extended (even further than the D.E.) debate is not needed, but after Saavik says "it's reliant." Kirk says Chekov's is on Reliant, isn't he?!"---should surely have been kept. This would have made it seem more plausible that Kirk would think Reliant was NOT a threat. that portion would have taken exactly 2 seconds of screen time.
20. Khan's sarcasm---additional 14 seconds---seen it. Khan mocks Kirk after Kirk offers himself to spare his crew. I like it--I can't get too much Khan or McCoy--ever.
21. Extended sickbay scene---as seen in D.E.
22. Tiberian bat line---additional 5 seconds-----seen it. kirk wryly comments after spock mentions the sensors aren't working that they are as blind as a Tiberian Bat---a callback to Preston's line that was cut when they cut out the earlier scene in engineering--I like it.
23. McCoy knows Terrell---additional 6 seconds---seen it. After opens the container with Terrell/Chekov inside, McCoys recognized Terrell as someone he served with. I love this as it gives some indication that we don't know everything about the crew and that the 7 of them haven't been joined at the hip for their entire careers--a keeper.
24. original Kirk vs David fight----additional 33 seconds (net)---seen it. The orininal fight that ends with david holding a knife to kirk's throat and Carol making the big reveal of their father/son relationship. If the series had gone in a different direction I'd say that it should have been kept, but after TSFS it doesn't matter. Shatner hated the Kirk/David thing (not a rumor this time) and wanted the scene reshot to have Kirk easily win. I'd have kept it.
25. Khaaaaaaan coda---additional 18 seconds---seen it. After Kirk screams and Khan does that orgasmic exhale, Joachim enters the bridge and announces the impulse drive is repaired. Not needed.
End of act II changes--a stunning less than two minutes net of cuts longer than the D.E.
TWOK Act III script to film deletions........
26. McCoy-David spar---additional 17 seconds---seen it. David blames Kirk for Jedda's death and McCoy slaps him down. Love it. It was first "domino" casualty of cutting the earlier original version of the Kirk/David fight-reveal.
27. Carol & Kirk alone---additional 25 seconds----seen it. Carol speaks to Kirk about David and Genesis--Like it, I'd have kept it.
28. "Eden cave"---additional 53 seconds---seen it. second domino to fall as David/Saavik seem to be attracted and the father son relationship is mentioned again. I'd have kept it along with earlier scenes.
29. Kirk/Spock exchange in Jeffrey's tube---as seen in D.E.
30. McCoy operates on Chekov--haven't seen it--- It was filmed--many, many stills of the scene exist(see main deleted scenes thread) A flash of Chekov on the operating table would have been nice, but overall not needed.
31. "human ego" lines---as seen in D.E. (In the script located slightly earlier than where it was later placed.)
32. Chekov wakes up---haven't seen it---it was shot (lots of photos exist) after a near hit Chekov wakes up and wants to go to the bridge--McCoy says no as David (against McCoy's earlier advice) himself sneaks to the Bridge. I like it, but the focus at that point was the battle.
33. Child and the bomb---haven't seen it--it was shot. Lots of photos exist. Not needed--better left to imagination.
34. Extended funeral dialogue--haven't seen it--probably shot. A preamble to kirk's touching speech and epilogue where Kirk orders saavik to take the chair and that he doesn't want to be disturbed. She disobeys as we later hear from david that he has spoken to Saavik on the subject. Not needed.
35. Full length Kirk/David reconciliation scene---haven't seen it--it was shot. Part was cut because it stated Kirk did not know he had a son (domino #3 or 4) and part was cut for time as studio pressured Meyer to cut the ENTIRE SCENE. I'd have left it in.
36. Bridge finale'---seen some of it. Original ending before they added the kirk voice-over and the torpedo on the surface. Heavily edited bit can be seen on Youtube. Part of the footage remains but muted as Kirk finishes his log voice-over. I'd have kept the original ending.
That's all the cuts excluding individual line cuts here and there.
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Time to bring these back... again.
And this last one, the only one I haven't been able to locate a source for.
Maab
Time to bring these back... again.
That's a striking shot, but I truly can't understand what the thinking was behind this sequence.
Well, the idea was to show how much damage Khan did to his own people blinded by his hatred towards Kirk.
Maab
^Maybe, but it kind of makes Kirk & co. look bad for firing on a ship with very small children aboard.
But how was Kirk to know if there was a child aboard or not?
^The point isn't what Kirk knew, it's what the audience sees and feels. It makes the morality of the story more uncomplicated if there aren't any innocents aboard. Sure, you can analyze it after the fact and explain why it would've been excusable, but editing decisions in movies are generally more about immediate visceral response than subsequent rational analysis.
I've not read the shooting script, so I don't know how Khan's child was meant to play out through the script. I know that he was to appear to Chekov and Terrell in the window of the cargo containers, but did he appear anywhere else until he crawls onto the transporter pad? Do we see Khan bonding with the child aboard the Reliant? Because of the two scenes I know of, beginning and end, I don't get the meaning that you ascribe to it. What I do get is a random scene that doesn't pay off anything and isn't paid off elsewhere. In those terms, I understand why the child was cut entirely.
Actually, I think that's all wrong. It's not about Khan's son. It's Khan.
Think about it... because it signposts how Spock's going to be resurrected. Radiation already being emitted from the Genesis device. Khan dying by exhaling and dropping down low out of shot. He must've basically crawled all the way to transporter room, getting younger, regressing back to a toddler.
Okay, maybe not... They had the kid shock Terrell and Chekov, looking out the window earlier anyway, didn't they?
Think about it... because it signposts how Spock's going to be resurrected. Radiation already being emitted from the Genesis device. Khan dying by exhaling and dropping down low out of shot. He must've basically crawled all the way to transporter room, getting younger, regressing back to a toddler.
Okay, maybe not... They had the kid shock Terrell and Chekov, looking out the window earlier anyway, didn't they?
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