Two Suns

[All Seeing Eye]

Detonating several thousand 100 megaton nuclear warheads in the Jovian atmosphere should ignite the gas into a plasma state and cause a chain reaction turning the gas giant into a star.

This sounds like something out of a Star Trek episode, not real physics. Can anyone confirm what would happen?

I can conform that Tachy doesn't know what he's talking about.

I see your Sarcasm Detector is none operational.

 

[Mysterion]

Just for the record, in the book (and the movie), no additional mass is added with the exception of a very large number of monoliths which appear out of nowhere. It is not clear whether or not the monoliths contributed to the overall mass of the new star, named Lucifer.

The novel is decidedly vague on the actual mechanism used to collapse Jupiter in to a star.

As I recall, there was some handwaving revolving around the fact that the monolith aliens are really advanced and can basically do whatever they want.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Sir Arthur C. Clarke

 

[Silvercrest]

This sounds like something out of a Star Trek episode, not real physics. Can anyone confirm what would happen?

I can conform that Tachy doesn't know what he's talking about.

I see your Sarcasm Detector is none operational.

That's right, and there's more than one of us that couldn't tell you were being sarcastic. There are any number of people on this board who would have made that as a serious suggestion.

A deadpan expression doesn't work when we can't see your face. Just use a different smiley next time and we'll all be fine.

 

[FordSVT]

This sounds like something out of a Star Trek episode, not real physics. Can anyone confirm what would happen?

I can conform that Tachy doesn't know what he's talking about.

I see your Sarcasm Detector is none operational.

Why is it that every time you say something stupid and get called for it you say you were joking?

It's like the guy who asks the girl out on a date and gets turned down and then pretends he was joking.

This is the science and technology forum, perhaps you should learn to use Smilies properly if you're going be sarcastic when making statements that could be confused with fact?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Why is it that every time you say something stupid and get called for it you say you were joking?

Joking and sarcasm are quite different. Seriously, who honestly thinks detonating a bunch of nukes is going to cause fusion in Jupiter to turn it into a sun? a 5 year old perhaps? to think that I might have been serious about the detonating nukes idea means you must think i'm 5, as soon as you start realising i'm not 5 and i'm far more read and educated than you like to believe THEN you might realise when i'm being sarcastic.

 

[FordSVT]

I've seen you say numerous scientifically illiterate things, I'm supposed to take it for granted that you aren't serious?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I've seen you say numerous scientifically illiterate things, I'm supposed to take it for granted that you aren't serious?

Do what you want.

 

[Neopeius]

So anyway...

I answered the question about what the new star would do to the Earth. Anyone want to chat about that?

It might be fun to discuss what Earth's development would have been like had Jupiter *been* a little red star. All things being equal, all the way down to the evolution of man, how do you think having far fewer black nights would have affected civilization?

 

[Hermiod]

So anyway...

I answered the question about what the new star would do to the Earth. Anyone want to chat about that?

I'm very much a layman when it comes to this stuff, but I've appreciated your answers.

It might be fun to discuss what Earth's development would have been like had Jupiter *been* a little red star. All things being equal, all the way down to the evolution of man, how do you think having far fewer black nights would have affected civilization?

In the book that inspired this thread there is an epilogue set in 20,001. The Europans came to the belief that the "cold sun" (the actual Sun, they considered Lucifer to be their primary star) was banished to forever march around the sky because it had committed some crime.

Having two stars might have changed a lot of human beliefs about our place in the universe, as well a many ancient religions based on Sun worship.

 

[Neopeius]

In the book that inspired this thread there is an epilogue set in 20,001. The Europans came to the belief that the "cold sun" (the actual Sun, they considered Lucifer to be their primary star) was banished to forever march around the sky because it had committed some crime.

Those Europo-trash...

The cold sun would be a really interesting phenomenon. It would only be a few magnitudes dimmer than our sun but would produce no palpable heat. If Europa remains a one-face world, then it will be perpetual day on one side with this yellow ball sliding across the sky, visible for 1.75 days (half an orbit around Jupiter*) During the times you have two suns, the colors will be quite a bit different and richer, I imagine.

On the other side, it will be very dark night for 1.75 days followed by a day which is almost as bright as day on Earth, but not appreciably warmer than at night.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But Jupiter would have to acquire at least 50x the mass for stellar ignition, and the smallest true star would be a red dwarf which is many times larger than Jupiter.

That would mean that Jupiter's moons would have to move further away to avoid being engulfed.

Also I take it that Jupiter would still be orbiting the sun in it's current orbit.

Presumably the monoliths first collapsed Jupiter down to a fraction of its diameter before detonating it. Probably condensed the core like a neutron star in order to contain the remainder of its atmosphere in a gravity well strong enough to the pressures and temperatures necessary for nuclear fusion without turning the planet into a supernova.

 

[Hermiod]

The cold sun would be a really interesting phenomenon. It would only be a few magnitudes dimmer than our sun but would produce no palpable heat. If Europa remains a one-face world, then it will be perpetual day on one side with this yellow ball sliding across the sky, visible for 1.75 days (half an orbit around Jupiter*) During the times you have two suns, the colors will be quite a bit different and richer, I imagine.

On the other side, it will be very dark night for 1.75 days followed by a day which is almost as bright as day on Earth, but not appreciably warmer than at night.

IIRC, Europa was still tidally locked in 20001. The Europans live on the light side. The dark side is still covered in ice.

They are keen astronomers, it seems. They have noticed that one of their neighbours seems to be permanently on fire (that would be Io with it's heavy volcanic activity) while there are lights on the other two (Ganymede and Callisto) that seem to be spreading as time goes on (human built colonies).

Their development had also been affected by the wreckage left behind by repeated failed human attempts to land on Europa, ignoring the warning that the world is not theirs and no such attempts should be made.

It should be noted that 3001 : The Final Odyssey completely ignores the epilogue. By the end, humans have established peaceful contact with the Europans. The book is also contradicted by 2061: Odyssey Three which says that Luficer stops shining in 3001.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

If there was a way to combine Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune together would that be big enough to collapse into a small star?
The smallest star so far detected was only 16% larger than Jupiter.

 

[Neopeius]

If there was a way to combine Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune together would that be big enough to collapse into a small star?
The smallest star so far detected was only 16% larger than Jupiter.

But it had 96 times the mass of Jupiter which is what one would expect from the smallest of stars. If you squished all the gas giants in the solar system together, you'd have a gas giant about a third more massive than Jupiter and only 10% wider if the density remained the same, which it wouldn't.

IIRC, Europa was still tidally locked in 20001. The Europans live on the light side. The dark side is still covered in ice.

Then Jupiter* is going to be even less bright, otherwise it would be too warm for the Europans on the day side (assuming an Earthlike biochemistry).

Jupiter* probably never became a star but rather a brown dwarf. It would make sense that it would "go out" at some point, although probably not on the scale of human civilization.

 

[BolianAuthor]

Well, this is not on the topic of 2010, but it does have to do with two suns, and is something I'd like to know, for my "Shades of Gray" story...

Zeta Reticuli is a binary star system, with both stars being virtually identical to Sol, in age, spectral type, and luminosity.

In my story, the homeworld of the Orvani (the Grays) orbits the SECOND Zeta Reticuli star, and is the second planet out from that second star. If you were to superimpose the Sol System over that system, Orvan would be roughly between Venus and Earth, favoring a bit closer to Earth.

So, my question is, what would the sky look like, at day or night? Would the first star be very prominent, or would it be just like a real bright blip? Would there be any interesting effects on the planet, during the time it moves between both stars, orbit-wise, like a series of months with no night?

Just wondering. Any insight is welcome.

-BolianAdmiral

 

[Neopeius]

Well, this is not on the topic of 2010, but it does have to do with two suns, and is something I'd like to know, for my "Shades of Gray" story...

Zeta Reticuli is a binary star system, with both stars being virtually identical to Sol, in age, spectral type, and luminosity.

In my story, the homeworld of the Orvani (the Grays) orbits the SECOND Zeta Reticuli star, and is the second planet out from that second star. If you were to superimpose the Sol System over that system, Orvan would be roughly between Venus and Earth, favoring a bit closer to Earth.

So, my question is, what would the sky look like, at day or night? Would the first star be very prominent, or would it be just like a real bright blip? Would there be any interesting effects on the planet, during the time it moves between both stars, orbit-wise, like a series of months with no night?

Just wondering. Any insight is welcome.

You can actually play around with the numbers yourself. All you have to remember is that Luminosity falls with the square of the distance.

All right, assume the Orvani planet is .9 A.U. from star #2 which has a luminosity of 1.02 suns. So it's getting abut 25% more flux from it's parent which may or may not be significant depending on things like planetary albedo, cloud cover, axial tilt, etc.

Let's assume A. the heat isn't enough to dessicate the planet by disassociating the hydrogen from the water and B. that the planet has a thin enough cloud cover such that the inhabitants can actually see the sky.

Zeta Reticuli 1 is 9000 A.U. away and since they both have similar masses, they probably never get much closer as they revolve around a common center of gravity.

Luminosity of ZR1 is .79. Divide that by 9000^2 and you get 9.75x10^-9.

That's 20 magnitudes dimmer than the sun or magnitude -7.

-7 is brighter than Venus though quite a bit dimmer than the full moon. It might cast a faint shadow. It would be very eyecatching and definitely visible in the day time--almost certainly brighter than any planet in the system.

It would have no discernible effect on tides, the planet's orbital motion. It might be bright enough to wash out stars in its vicinity but it certainly would not banish the night.

 

[Hofner]

If you want a binary system where the night for an Earth-like planet circling one star is really lit up by the other star, try Alpha Centauri. Actually it is sometimes considered a trinary but Proxima Centauri is so far from the other two stars and so dim it would appear only as an average star.

But Alpha Centauri A and B are pretty close togetner but not too close. The separation between the two stars varies from about 11 to 35 AUs which is far enough for an Earth-like planet to have a stable orbit at about 1 AU from either star. So for an "Earth" circling AC-A, AC-B would have a magnitude of -18 to -20 which is brighter than the full moon. I'd guess bright enough to make night as bright as a cloudy or lightly cloudy day. From B, A would be a little brighter at magnitude -19 to -21.

Robert

 

[Neopeius]

Proxima Centauri is so far from the other two stars and so dim it would appear only as an average star.

With an insane Proper Motion.

Welcome to the party.

 

[BolianAuthor]

Well, I need Zeta Reticuli for this story, but Alpha Centauri is in another one.

However... would it be possible, on this hypothetical world orbiting ZR, that one might be able to witness a special phenomenon from time to time, like maybe a double solar halo, or a event where one star eclipses the other?

 

[Neopeius]

Well, I need Zeta Reticuli for this story, but Alpha Centauri is in another one.

However... would it be possible, on this hypothetical world orbiting ZR, that one might be able to witness a special phenomenon from time to time, like maybe a double solar halo, or a event where one star eclipses the other?

If the plane of the ZR 2 system is close to that of the ZR binary system, then you can get eclipses. Every Orvani year, the planet will swing behind ZR2 with respect to ZR1.

But since ZR 2 is a star, there won't be any amazing effects. You just won't be able to see ZR 1 for a while.

What would be more interesting is if Orvan has a moon or two. If not, ZR1 could be eclipsed by another planet.