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Spoilers Two steps forward, one step back? Thoughts on the world DSC presents

ISS_Einstein

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
First off, I would like to thank sincerely the creators of Discovery for taking onboard constructive criticism of season one. People here wrote pages upon pages about the seemingly dark deconstructive tone of some parts of Discovery, and why they felt Star Trek's enlightenment-style progressive message was fine without the need for post-modern deconstruction. The first couple of episodes were more humane, the characters got the time and the endearment we wanted, they become more than just extras. We were presented with a Federation that cares about the protection of life for it's own sake, heroic acts like Reno keeping war casualties alive, and the introduction of the considerate and principled Pike was joyful.

5uowwWZ.jpg


On the more production side, it is gratifying to see the Klingons reconciled with the species we knew, hair and all - the balance is just right. TrekBBS forumers wrote pages upon pages about the incongruity of the new D7 battlecruiser shown in season one, and the producers have pulled back on that much-hated design choice, reintroducing the classic ship.

RDrrgp0.jpg


sOKGOwF.jpg


The first two episodes of the season felt like Star Trek in spirit. Nothing is perfect of course, but I loved them. I actually looked forward to new episodes again on Fridays, which I haven't felt about a show in years. But I had this trepidation about getting too excited, because two episodes does not make a season - the tone could easily reverse in the space of an episode, as the same regime was still there - and the people who wrote theese episodes also happen to have been the people who bookended season one - worryingly, most of the tonal problems were concentrated in the middle 11-12 episodes of the season.

When Berg and Harberts were fired for allegedly shouting abuse at other writers, a lot of people felt maybe this was the signal of major changes behind the camera. Bullies should not be tolerated, and their behaviour, if true, was unprofessional. Perhaps it would clear the air and allow a more healthy writers room to develop. Yet... it wasn't their names attached to most of the worst material in season one, from Vulcan suicide bombings to Klingon sleeper agents murdering characters that had barely endeared themselves to us. The inconsistent material in season one, from the badly conceived mirror universe stuff, to the spore drive, to the unrelenting heaviness and mirthlessness of Burnham's attitudes to everything, was done with the full participation of the rest of the writer's room.

I am completely in the dark about who is responsible for what behind the camera, but as soon as we hit episode three, a lot of the worst material from the first season became central to the show again. Vulcan suicide bombers. A known perpetrator of genocide and known cannibal working for the Federation's covert interests. The episode was well plotted, but again, felt different in thematic content to Star Trek, in a way that a Star Wars story about drug addicts shooting up all day would in that franchise. I'm not opposed to material that examines the harshness of that the universe can contain, but I'm really not sure that is the approach Star Trek does best to inspire change and address problems.

Klingon Sexism

In Star Trek, especially after the 60s, gender equality was portrayed as such a given, that even adversarial societies like the Romulans and Klingons displayed no obvious bias, it was such a non-issue that societies of this level of development would have abandoned such primitive bigotry. If they can crack the warp drive, surely they cracked medieval attitudes hundreds of years ago? People were be equal under the law, and equal in fact as far as we can tell, in a society that had already entrenched reason to that degree. Things like bigotry occurred mainly between species, but not within them, as on the level of a Kardashev 1+ society, such things were generally in the past. Uhura noted that humans had learned to be delighted by difference, and had escaped the weight of history. That was really progressive, and inspiring.

But it is not how the current zeitgeist likes to do things. In the opinion of some current writers, if you don't show discrimination overtly, I get the feeling you are seen as something like a 'class traitor' in old revolutionary parlance - someone wilfully ignoring the struggle. So instead of presenting the inspiring upside of what we could achieve with reason, in current drama we are sometimes subjected to the very worst of prejudice with the best intentions. However, we all know the depths of prejudice and cruelty, surely, without having to overtly be reminded of what bigotry is like, in a show set 300 years in the future? In episode three, the Klingons go from being a species which seemed just as progressive as the Federation - Mara was science officer of a Klingon battlecruiser in 1968, at a time when the Soviet Union had more gender equality in the sciences and military than the west - to being one, in which the (admittedly untrustworthy) opinion of Georgiou, objects to L'Rell based solely on her gender? This change in Klingons started with DS9, as we know, but just became more acute.

Surely it does more to inspire a better world, if you show that even adversarial space age samurai consider such prejudice to be an anachronism? Irrelevant of if you think this is too idealistic, this was Star Trek's approach. It brings to mind a Ray Bradbury quote, about how science fiction is the genre of what can happen, as opposed to a genre of what has happened - the genre of revolutions in science and societies - showing a paradigm that does not exist yet, but only in the possibility of reason. I don't think these episodes made people uncomfortable because they are hiding from the truth, but because they can no longer watch with their family and say "look, this shows a better world"; it suggests inescapable conflict, and joyless struggle.

The Federation Kissinger Doctrine

I lack the godlike view of history that you would need, to say whether a progressive society needs to occasionally do something difficult or cruel, in furtherance of a greater good. Did democracies occasionally need to take a hard stance in order to prevent a worse outcome? Do societies ever need to torture, or to intervene in a threatening adversary's affairs? Or are these things that weaken those very institutions, cast doubt on their underpinnings? One might well then say that Lenin and Trotsky, or the leaders of the French Revolution, were right to seek any means to preserve their revolutions, although I know their republics were different in legal emphasis to say the USA, or India, or South Africa. The founders of those republics tried to set up imperfect institutions through which people could seek greater and greater universal rights, as opposed to sweeping away the old order through a coup. Perhaps as long as we struggle with this difficulty, and these choices are hard, we are at least not so far gone as to see human life as a means.

Star Trek is a show about a society that has continued to take reason as it's guiding star, a philosophical thought experiment in what rights and responsibilities time might reap, given the steady progression of reason, and of our conscientiousness for the environment and human welfare.

But why are modern writers so obsessed with introducing morally ambiguous elements into the United Federation of Planets? Do we really need an analogue in this future society for the well-understood failings of our own? Why not accept the central premise of Star Trek as part of it's charm, rather than trying to deconstruct it? Does the current zeitgeist assume that societies always have the same institutional problems, like a theory of eternal recurrence? History, and a reductive view of society suggests that future republics may have all the failings of the earliest ones like Rome. But crucially reason does not say that just because a thing has happened before, we are doomed to repeat it, and empiricism even suggests we are making constant strides in the right direction as a planet, despite setbacks.

Vulcan Jihadists

Even the most enlightened societies have their bad points. Any 'true world' doctrine can produce extremism, including secular ones. Yet, this has got to be one of the most egregious deconstructive flourishes incorporated into season one. The pacifist Surakian Vulcans... who literally worship the concept of diversity in the IDIC concept... have their own suicide bombers. "Surprise, we deconstructed your symbol of an enlightened people."

Star Trek was a show that was pretty gung-ho about the power of reason. Reason lets a person think "just because an injustice has happened before, does not necessarily mean it always must", where mere empiricism just reports the facts, reason imagines the possibilities. Tom Paine, and the founding fathers of the United States, reasoned that a monarch did not necessarily have to rule a state just because one had done so for a thousand years in England or France. They were imperfect people who reasoned a system that allowed people to win new rights. India's first and most successful prime minister, warned his constituents about that the process of election should be bigger than any one person, reinforcing an institution that remains in it's imperfect beauty today, despite setbacks.

But here we are, with presumably atheist suicide bombers, trying to presumably rid a pacifist free-thinking society of alien impurity, what, because they fear how unreasonable alien cultures are(?) Maybe they watch our TV, in which case I can't blame them. When you look at this from the perspective of atheists, the optics of this could look quite bad couldn't they? Non-belief is still, amazingly, highly persecuted as a community on our own planet in the present, despite having existed as long as religion has. In several countries, being an atheist carries the death penalty, largely at the hands of religious-nationalist regimes. Many people reading this would be executed if they were a citizen of some states, merely for the crime of existing. Freedom of belief is effectively illegal in many more countries, where changing your creed or having none is punishable to varying degrees. It is informally met with murders and persecution in yet more others. Even in liberal societies, non-believers face stereotyping, and negative media portrayals of their broad spectrum of philosophical beliefs. Did we really need this concept introduced into Star Trek? A rare show, created by a prominent atheist, who like other prominent atheists like Tom Paine or Jawaharlal Nehru trusted in the power of humanity to solve it's own problems, being brought uncomfortably close to the optics of making a point to one of last groups that deserve the lecture right now.
 
I can see that your enthusiasm is great for the show, but perhaps this particular type of Thread would be better served in The Neutral Zone Forum.

Most times, these type of philosophical discussions will often degrade into personal animosities being tossed back and forth, with very little constructive dialogue being exchanged.
And more often than not, the discourse ends up just being a convoluted mess of veiled insults.
:shrug:
 
So, don't dare post anything pertinent about DSC in the DSC forum, because other people might potentially derail the thread, in a potential future that we don't know will occur? I know you have good intentions, but that seems like a bad way to do things, even if it's likely. Let the problem occur before reacting to it.
 
So, don't dare post anything pertinent about DSC in the DSC forum, because other people might potentially derail the thread, in a potential future that we don't know will occur? I know you have good intentions, but that seems like a bad way to do things, even if it's likely. Let the problem occur before reacting to it.

Your insights rely heavily on philosophical thought and a great deal of projecting today's reality onto the show.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be discussed, but after almost two decades of hanging around here and seeing how things usually go...
There is a reason that The Neutral Zone was specifically created, and it's these type of discussions that fit it best.

But hey, I'm no Mod, so I'll bow quietly out and hope it goes well for you.

Peace, out.
:techman:
 
Irrelevant of if you think this is too idealistic, this was Star Trek's approach
Except it wasn't. Star Trek could never be accused of being subtle on the topic of discrimination - I refer you to Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.

And when Star Trek did take the philosophy of "oh, all that will be in the past by the 24th century!" what that meant in reality was erasure of many minority groups entirely, and the continuation of many sexist tropes (how many times did Troi end up violated?). I would rather Star Trek dealt with these topics openly, rather than playing an "evolved philosophy" get out card.

Ray Bradbury quote, about how science fiction is the genre of what can happen, as opposed to a genre of what has happened
I would disagree strongly with that. I would argue that few genres are more acutely about today's problems than science fiction.

that even adversarial societies like the Romulans and Klingons displayed no obvious bias,
Except they did. The whole plot of House of Quark rests on it, for starters.
But why are modern writers so obsessed with introducing morally ambiguous elements into the United Federation of Planets?
Partly because it's kewl. But partly because they believe (as some on this board have expressed) that it is 'unrealistic' that a society that lives by its values could survive; you always need 'hard people doing hard things' in the background. I do not believe this, and while I appreciate a more nuanced view on the Federation's morality than say early TNG offered, I reject the reality of something like Section 31 as an acknowledged part of Federation society. For me, a story like Homefront is fine because although it shows Starfleet officers acting in an underhanded manner, ultimately the antagonist is shown to have gone fucked up by abandoning his values to fear. It is something else entirely to establish that you need many Admiral Laytons in the shadows to keep things ticking along while the naive idiots keep playing at being enlightened.

But here we are, with presumably atheist suicide bombers, trying to presumably rid a pacifist free-thinking society of alien impurity, what, because they fear how unreasonable alien cultures are(?)
You have a society built on logic, stripped of emotion, and while Star Trek fans like to idolise that idea, it is actually one that opens itself up to significant amoral abuse. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is presented as a noble lesson in self sacrifice in STII, but what happens when you consider yourself in the many? You have a justification for slavery. I have always considered Vulcans to be strange heroes. Their philosophy is devoid of compassion, missing the human heart. The basis of the pilot, The Vulcan Hello, is that the logical approach to a threat may in fact be overwhelming force. On the basis on which Vulcans are established in TOS, that does not seem unreasonable for them to adipt as a philosophy. Once you accept morality as a numbers game, suicide bombing can be made logical.

So, don't dare post anything pertinent about DSC in the DSC forum, because other people might potentially derail the thread, in a potential future that we don't know will occur? I know you have good intentions, but that seems like a bad way to do things, even if it's likely. Let the problem occur before reacting to it.
I have edited your title slightly to reflect the main thrust of your post, but there's no reason this thread can't exist here.
 
Your insights rely heavily on philosophical thought and a great deal of projecting today's reality onto the show.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be discussed, but after almost two decades of hanging around here and seeing how things usually go...
There is a reason that The Neutral Zone was specifically created, and it's these type of discussions that fit it best.

But hey, I'm no Mod, so I'll bow quietly out and hope it goes well for you.

Peace, out.
:techman:
Um, yeah - about your first sentence. Welcome to A LOT (not all, but A LOT) of original TOS episodes when they first aired on NBC from 1966-1969.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone, I'm about to leave for today, but want to reply to a couple briefly.

Except it wasn't. Star Trek could never be accused of being subtle on the topic of discrimination - I refer you to Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.

But importantly, as I mentioned, the main high tech Cold War adversarial empires didn't, and your example was mainly confined to the species of the week, which was shown to have destroyed itself through such bigotry, as a kind of moral fable. Such a planet would be rife for exploitation by the great powers if it can't even find unity among itself. In terms of recurring villains, only the Ferengi were openly this regressive and bigoted.

Except they did. The whole plot of House of Quark rests on it, for starters.

I did mention that. DS9 starting a bad trend.

I do not believe this, and while I appreciate a more nuanced view on the Federation's morality than say early TNG offered, I reject the reality of something like Section 31 as an acknowledged part of Federation society.

I assume you must share some concern about the new Section 31 show as I do. Let's hope for the best. The showrunners said they wouldn't abandon Star Trek's ideals, for what it's worth.

You have a society built on logic, stripped of emotion, and while Star Trek fans like to idolise that idea, it is actually one that opens itself up to significant amoral abuse. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

But crucially - and these kind of nuances are very very important - it is never shown to be anything other than a personal choice when a Vulcan chooses to behave this way. There is a world of meaning in such a distinction. It is things like this that make for all the difference, especially in political systems.

Perhaps the Vulcan constitution expressly protects people from the imposition of the choice. These are the nuances that we need to see, not reductive critiques that merely take the Vulcan creed at face value.
 
My suspicion: covert Romulan meddling in Vulcan society - as depicted and defeated in ENT's final season - had its consequences...for Sarek's family in particular.
 
My suspicion: covert Romulan meddling in Vulcan society - as depicted and defeated in ENT's final season - had its consequences...for Sarek's family in particular.
That’s continuing in the novels with that Romulan stuff. Sarek has only just been born.
 
I did mention that. DS9 starting a bad trend.

You misspelled "TNG." The whole Duras plotline hinged on the fact that after he died, his sisters couldn't keep the family's political power until they scared up a bastard son because women weren't allowed on the council.

Or, if you'd rather, TOS, where the only woman we saw in the Klingon military was on her husband's ship, which implies some interesting things about gender equality in the Empire.
 
But why are modern writers so obsessed with introducing morally ambiguous elements into the United Federation of Planets? Do we really need an analogue in this future society for the well-understood failings of our own? Why not accept the central premise of Star Trek as part of it's charm, rather than trying to deconstruct it? Does the current zeitgeist assume that societies always have the same institutional problems, like a theory of eternal recurrence?

Ok, I'm not going to presume to speak for any of the writers, directors, actors or anybody else on the show. So, how about I tell you why I prefer when they inject the morally ambiguous elements, and we go from there? And forgiveness, as well, as I stumble through trying to explain some of what goes through my head.

I love the ideas inherent in the Federation. I love the idea of a culture built on idealism, equality, and scientific discovery. An age of wonder. A people who seek, not to gain material benefit or position, but merely to discover. To see what's out there.

But I'm also a realist. I can look around me and see the world today. I can see the hate, the fear. The oppression of one people by another. And, part of me must ask, is that what people are? Is that what we will always be?

Star Trek, particularly in the TNG era, liked to explore many of those same questions. But it tended to do so through alien cultures. Through outsiders, and others. And while the message was certainly never intended, it creates a pattern. 'We' are morally superior, advanced and cultured. 'They' are something less, something throwback. 'They' are subject to prejudices, and faults and failings that 'we' have moved beyond. Again, none of this was intentional. It wasn't the message. And the messages themselves were good, and idealist, and utopian.

And don't get me wrong, this wasn't always the case. The creatives involved have produced drama from inside the Federation and without, conflicts of personality, or style. Or simply of need. (The Star Trek 3 dilemma, when our heroes need to steal a ship and disable another to go do their good work creates drama, as they are acting against Starfleet even as we the viewer understand why and are rooting for them, for a good example.)

But I like to see the utopian challenged. I like to see the idealism tested. I like the morally ambiguous characters (like Disco's Lorca pre-MU, or Section 31) precisely because they break the mold of what the Federation represents. Because they are outliers. Not because I agree with them, or wish to root for them (though a skilled writer can make them sympathetic, likeable and tempt me to root for them). Not because I believe their ideology has any place in a world like the Federation. But because I like to see the idealists have to react to such things. To truly see themselves in their opposition. A captain like Lorca is especially interesting because of the ways we can see his ideas take root in this world. To see the weaknesses and cracks that threaten to break the perfect utopian ideology. To see the way he can lead people we know are devoted to the Federation's ideals and twist them. Pull them apart. Threaten to shatter them and leave them something else. The victory isn't a triumph over some external enemy. It's overcoming, fundamentally, ourselves. It's inspiring to see the values of the characters triumph, to see their idealism hold in the face of ambiguity, practicality and expediency. Because we see so little of that today.

The same is true of real world problems. I like to see these problems recur in the the Federation of the 23rd and 24th century. Not because I think they always will, or because I agree racism, sexism or what have you. But because bettering mankind is not a short term goal. It will have stops and starts, it will face setbacks and challenges. But the best of us can face those challenges, overcome those setbacks and hold onto the things and ideas that will drive us forward even in the face of glaring examples of our own failings.

Watching someone enlightened confront the worst of humanity is always worthwhile, whether directly or via allegory. A Pike, a Kirk, a Picard. Bringing idealism like a torch into the darkness and expanding the frontier of freedom and equality. Sure. But sometimes I want to watch someone who is meant to be enlightened confront the worst of themselves. A Burnham who gives in to fear and calls it logic. A Lorca, clothed in the language of the Federation, of noble idealism, but in fact a monster driven by ambition and violence and greed. And not only hidden among Starfleet's best, but molding them into a weapon he can wield. A Georgiou, able to smoothly convince the entirety (or at least enough) of Starfleet command that an atrocity is the solution to their problem. Practical brutality as expediency, but not rejected out of hand.

I guess at the end of the day, sometimes I just want to see the idealism fail. See it break. And see someone try to pick up the pieces. It's inspiring to me in it's own way. It may not be as exemplary as the Federation is meant to be, but it makes me hope that we have it in ourselves to get that far, and to keep fighting and changing and growing when we get there.

Having typed all that, I'm not sure it makes any sense, or conveys what I mean to say. Or that it gets at your question at all. But it's my 2 cents on the subject.
 
First off, I would like to thank sincerely the creators of Discovery for taking onboard constructive criticism of season one. People here wrote pages upon pages about the seemingly dark deconstructive tone of some parts of Discovery, and why they felt Star Trek's enlightenment-style progressive message was fine without the need for post-modern deconstruction. The first couple of episodes were more humane, the characters got the time and the endearment we wanted, they become more than just extras. We were presented with a Federation that cares about the protection of life for it's own sake, heroic acts like Reno keeping war casualties alive, and the introduction of the considerate and principled Pike was joyful.

5uowwWZ.jpg


On the more production side, it is gratifying to see the Klingons reconciled with the species we knew, hair and all - the balance is just right. TrekBBS forumers wrote pages upon pages about the incongruity of the new D7 battlecruiser shown in season one, and the producers have pulled back on that much-hated design choice, reintroducing the classic ship.

RDrrgp0.jpg


sOKGOwF.jpg


The first two episodes of the season felt like Star Trek in spirit. Nothing is perfect of course, but I loved them. I actually looked forward to new episodes again on Fridays, which I haven't felt about a show in years. But I had this trepidation about getting too excited, because two episodes does not make a season - the tone could easily reverse in the space of an episode, as the same regime was still there - and the people who wrote theese episodes also happen to have been the people who bookended season one - worryingly, most of the tonal problems were concentrated in the middle 11-12 episodes of the season.

When Berg and Harberts were fired for allegedly shouting abuse at other writers, a lot of people felt maybe this was the signal of major changes behind the camera. Bullies should not be tolerated, and their behaviour, if true, was unprofessional. Perhaps it would clear the air and allow a more healthy writers room to develop. Yet... it wasn't their names attached to most of the worst material in season one, from Vulcan suicide bombings to Klingon sleeper agents murdering characters that had barely endeared themselves to us. The inconsistent material in season one, from the badly conceived mirror universe stuff, to the spore drive, to the unrelenting heaviness and mirthlessness of Burnham's attitudes to everything, was done with the full participation of the rest of the writer's room.

I am completely in the dark about who is responsible for what behind the camera, but as soon as we hit episode three, a lot of the worst material from the first season became central to the show again. Vulcan suicide bombers. A known perpetrator of genocide and known cannibal working for the Federation's covert interests. The episode was well plotted, but again, felt different in thematic content to Star Trek, in a way that a Star Wars story about drug addicts shooting up all day would in that franchise. I'm not opposed to material that examines the harshness of that the universe can contain, but I'm really not sure that is the approach Star Trek does best to inspire change and address problems.

Klingon Sexism

In Star Trek, especially after the 60s, gender equality was portrayed as such a given, that even adversarial societies like the Romulans and Klingons displayed no obvious bias, it was such a non-issue that societies of this level of development would have abandoned such primitive bigotry. If they can crack the warp drive, surely they cracked medieval attitudes hundreds of years ago? People were be equal under the law, and equal in fact as far as we can tell, in a society that had already entrenched reason to that degree. Things like bigotry occurred mainly between species, but not within them, as on the level of a Kardashev 1+ society, such things were generally in the past. Uhura noted that humans had learned to be delighted by difference, and had escaped the weight of history. That was really progressive, and inspiring.

But it is not how the current zeitgeist likes to do things. In the opinion of some current writers, if you don't show discrimination overtly, I get the feeling you are seen as something like a 'class traitor' in old revolutionary parlance - someone wilfully ignoring the struggle. So instead of presenting the inspiring upside of what we could achieve with reason, in current drama we are sometimes subjected to the very worst of prejudice with the best intentions. However, we all know the depths of prejudice and cruelty, surely, without having to overtly be reminded of what bigotry is like, in a show set 300 years in the future? In episode three, the Klingons go from being a species which seemed just as progressive as the Federation - Mara was science officer of a Klingon battlecruiser in 1968, at a time when the Soviet Union had more gender equality in the sciences and military than the west - to being one, in which the (admittedly untrustworthy) opinion of Georgiou, objects to L'Rell based solely on her gender? This change in Klingons started with DS9, as we know, but just became more acute.

Surely it does more to inspire a better world, if you show that even adversarial space age samurai consider such prejudice to be an anachronism? Irrelevant of if you think this is too idealistic, this was Star Trek's approach. It brings to mind a Ray Bradbury quote, about how science fiction is the genre of what can happen, as opposed to a genre of what has happened - the genre of revolutions in science and societies - showing a paradigm that does not exist yet, but only in the possibility of reason. I don't think these episodes made people uncomfortable because they are hiding from the truth, but because they can no longer watch with their family and say "look, this shows a better world"; it suggests inescapable conflict, and joyless struggle.

The Federation Kissinger Doctrine

I lack the godlike view of history that you would need, to say whether a progressive society needs to occasionally do something difficult or cruel, in furtherance of a greater good. Did democracies occasionally need to take a hard stance in order to prevent a worse outcome? Do societies ever need to torture, or to intervene in a threatening adversary's affairs? Or are these things that weaken those very institutions, cast doubt on their underpinnings? One might well then say that Lenin and Trotsky, or the leaders of the French Revolution, were right to seek any means to preserve their revolutions, although I know their republics were different in legal emphasis to say the USA, or India, or South Africa. The founders of those republics tried to set up imperfect institutions through which people could seek greater and greater universal rights, as opposed to sweeping away the old order through a coup. Perhaps as long as we struggle with this difficulty, and these choices are hard, we are at least not so far gone as to see human life as a means.

Star Trek is a show about a society that has continued to take reason as it's guiding star, a philosophical thought experiment in what rights and responsibilities time might reap, given the steady progression of reason, and of our conscientiousness for the environment and human welfare.

But why are modern writers so obsessed with introducing morally ambiguous elements into the United Federation of Planets? Do we really need an analogue in this future society for the well-understood failings of our own? Why not accept the central premise of Star Trek as part of it's charm, rather than trying to deconstruct it? Does the current zeitgeist assume that societies always have the same institutional problems, like a theory of eternal recurrence? History, and a reductive view of society suggests that future republics may have all the failings of the earliest ones like Rome. But crucially reason does not say that just because a thing has happened before, we are doomed to repeat it, and empiricism even suggests we are making constant strides in the right direction as a planet, despite setbacks.

Vulcan Jihadists

Even the most enlightened societies have their bad points. Any 'true world' doctrine can produce extremism, including secular ones. Yet, this has got to be one of the most egregious deconstructive flourishes incorporated into season one. The pacifist Surakian Vulcans... who literally worship the concept of diversity in the IDIC concept... have their own suicide bombers. "Surprise, we deconstructed your symbol of an enlightened people."

Star Trek was a show that was pretty gung-ho about the power of reason. Reason lets a person think "just because an injustice has happened before, does not necessarily mean it always must", where mere empiricism just reports the facts, reason imagines the possibilities. Tom Paine, and the founding fathers of the United States, reasoned that a monarch did not necessarily have to rule a state just because one had done so for a thousand years in England or France. They were imperfect people who reasoned a system that allowed people to win new rights. India's first and most successful prime minister, warned his constituents about that the process of election should be bigger than any one person, reinforcing an institution that remains in it's imperfect beauty today, despite setbacks.

But here we are, with presumably atheist suicide bombers, trying to presumably rid a pacifist free-thinking society of alien impurity, what, because they fear how unreasonable alien cultures are(?) Maybe they watch our TV, in which case I can't blame them. When you look at this from the perspective of atheists, the optics of this could look quite bad couldn't they? Non-belief is still, amazingly, highly persecuted as a community on our own planet in the present, despite having existed as long as religion has. In several countries, being an atheist carries the death penalty, largely at the hands of religious-nationalist regimes. Many people reading this would be executed if they were a citizen of some states, merely for the crime of existing. Freedom of belief is effectively illegal in many more countries, where changing your creed or having none is punishable to varying degrees. It is informally met with murders and persecution in yet more others. Even in liberal societies, non-believers face stereotyping, and negative media portrayals of their broad spectrum of philosophical beliefs. Did we really need this concept introduced into Star Trek? A rare show, created by a prominent atheist, who like other prominent atheists like Tom Paine or Jawaharlal Nehru trusted in the power of humanity to solve it's own problems, being brought uncomfortably close to the optics of making a point to one of last groups that deserve the lecture right now.

Simply put writing stories in a Utopia becomes boring and limiting, Trek writers have even said this themselves. This is why from TNG season 4 onwards, there were more episodes challenging the Utopia narrative and why DS9 became an open rebellion to the notion that the 24th century is a paradise. Star Trek is first and foremost about exploring the human condition, it's hard to do that with perfect humans who never, ever do anything 'bad'.

The Vulcan logic extremist idea has it's roots in TNG. The episode 'Gambit' introduced a vulcan terrorist who was trying to get a super weapon. The Vulcan Isolationists thought that alien influences and the federation as a whole were robbing vulcan of it's culture and purity. DSC just borrowed what TNG had already laid down. Personally I love the Logic extremists and how Vulcans were depicted in Enterprise and episodes like 'Take me out to the holosuite' because it breaks down the mono-culture. I like that not everyone on vulcan thinks being in the Federation is a good idea because it then makes vulcan a culture of individuals and not stereotypes.

Star Trek has been challenging it's own notions of Utopia for a VERY long time. DSC is just picking up the torch.
 
it breaks down the mono-culture. I like that not everyone on vulcan thinks being in the Federation is a good idea because it then makes vulcan a culture of individuals and not stereotypes.
That's a bingo!

There is really no need for IDIC if Vulcan society is a mono-culture of Spock (or Sarek) clones. The moment you show variety and individuality, it enriches the narrative.

And for all we know, Vulcans have an aristocratic class system with canonical royalty. There's not much logic behind that but the conflict between that system and a strict logic society would make for a good story or two (if any show ever touches on that) and the same can be said for the logic extremists.
 
@Xerxes82 - I'm right there with you. But rather than just challenging our heroes, don't you feel that Section 31 goes further and implies that a society can't exist without a cynical extra-judicial watchman? I'm a realist too, but I wouldn't be comfortable saying that history must unfold that way, because I don't know how true it is. Here is what the New York Times felt about the CIA coup against Allende, comparing it to the Soviet invasion of Czechlovakia:

BOSTON, Feb. 26—When the Soviet Union crushed Dubcek's Czechoslovakia in 1968, it claimed an inherent right of intervention to keep any “sister socialist state” from slipping out of the Soviet orbit. That was the Brezhnev Doctrine.

Americans were sickened by the brutal cynicism of the Soviet rationalization. But if we open our eyes, we cannot avoid seeing that we now have a doctrine to match. It must be called the Kissinger Doctrine.

It appeared first in relation to the Allende Government of Chile. In that context the doctrine could be stated as follows: The United States is entitled to conspire against another country's constitutional government if we fear it might slip that country out of our orbit.

Henry Kissinger put the matter succinctly to the Forty Committee, the secret operations group that he heads, on June 27, 1970. Speaking of Chile, he said: “I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go Communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people.”

The torment of Cambodia shows that the doctrine also takes a second form: If a government comes to power by a coup and takes its country into the U. S. orbit, Washington will do anything to prevent a change of that government‐no matter how little support it has from its own people, no matter how terrible the cost to them.
How much did actions like this undermine the moral authority of the west? We may never know. Maybe some of the fallout is still felt today, in apathy or disillusion. I saw the Federation as a Bradbury-like thought experiment in a future society, but implying it can't exist without some branch of it garotting foreign generals or whatever, puts a permanent end to that mode of sci-fi, the genre of imagining a future different to our own - as a realist, I do understand it happens right now.
 
That's a bingo!

There is really no need for IDIC if Vulcan society is a mono-culture of Spock (or Sarek) clones. The moment you show variety and individuality, it enriches the narrative.

And for all we know, Vulcans have an aristocratic class system with canonical royalty. There's not much logic behind that but the conflict between that system and a strict logic society would make for a good story or two (if any show ever touches on that) and the same can be said for the logic extremists.

Someone in another thread mentioned how 'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' can be used to justify any action, good or bad. I'd love for Discovery to do a story exploring this with the Logic extremists. No doubt they believe wholeheartedly that what they are doing is for the benefit of all vulcans.

Also, I loved the character of Solok from 'Take me out to the holosuite' it was refreshing to see a vulcan who was basically an arrogant douche jock, instead of the pious, know-it-all enlightened alien elf that we usually get
 
Star Trek has been challenging it's own notions of Utopia for a VERY long time. DSC is just picking up the torch.

Very much agreed. And in general, that's a good thing. It's much more interesting to see people challenged to live by their values in the face of opposition or sacrifice than to see them just being perfect because Gene's Vision.
 
On a very general note, we also need DSC to show a world much inferior to that of TOS. Kirk and his heroes make big speeches about violence and other wrongs being a thing of the past, but they are lurking just beneath the surface, and Kirk himself is a former warrior, "former" for the young character necessarily being recentish. If things were worse in Kirk's youth, we need to see them being worse - and OTOH we can then breathe more easily when we see our TOS heroes sprout blatant do-good propaganda, because that's no longer a clumsy Hollywood convention then, but realistic behavior from realistic characters who are in proactive denial of how the world around them works.

Timo Saloniemi
 
As mentioned above, the Vulcan utilitarian doctrine was never shown to be anything other than a personal choice made individually. It would go without saying that the Vulcans are act utilitarians, and individualists, as an implicit part of that, or their society would be a bloodbath - lets not read such a statement reductively, and without nuance, without looking at the evidence of our eyes.
 
As mentioned above, the Vulcan utilitarian doctrine was never shown to be anything other than a personal choice made individually. It would go without saying that the Vulcans are act utilitarians, and individualists, as an implicit part of that, or their society would be a bloodbath - lets not read such a statement reductively, and without nuance, without looking at the evidence of our eyes.

What? Vulcan society is based on the collectivist notion that everyone follow logic. Their society was and would be a bloodbath if vulcans didn't follow that collective ideal.
 
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