Two plot things that I don't understand.

[chardman]

There are 2 things about the movie that I still don't understand or have seen anyone explain very well.

1)Why does Spock feel ZERO need to fix the time line? He is the only one that knows about the "Guardian". He knows about the "sling shot" idea. So he can easily fix it. So why does he feel zero responsibility to fix the damaged time line? Billions of lives were lost. His entire life he says "I am a Vulcan" but shows no loyalty at all when his home world is destroyed.

Because he knows "the timeline" isn't damaged, and doesn't need to be "fixed". His original timeline is still going on, exactly as nature intended. Unfortunately, Spock isn't in his native timeline anymore, but is in an "Alternate Reality", which, for all Spock knows, is also proceeding exactly as nature intended. To disrupt the established past of this new reality would be presumptuous, arrogant, pointless, and potentially dangerous. To go back in time and alter this new timeline wouldn't necessarily "fix" it, but might well result in yet another "Alternate Reality". So rather than disrupting the established history of this Alternate reality, Old Spock is content to merely watch this new reality as it unfolds, and perhaps, at time, use his knowledge of possible future events to help guide this reality, strictly "in the now".

2)What exactly was Nero doing for like 20 years after he went through the black hole? I mean why not go back to Romulus and warn the government and the people. He has all the technology to back up his claim of the impending doom.

Uh, no, Nero does not have all the technology to back up his claim. Rather, he doesn't have the technology to stop the supernova from occurring. That tech is in Spock's ship. Nero's ship does have advanced "Borg-based" tech, but all that would prove to the Romulan high council is that he has an alien ship, which doesn't really prove he's from the future, or has future knowledge.

Which is why Nero must wait for Spock before taking action. He needs the red matter, so that he can simply save Romulus, without having to convince the council of anything. He plans to simply do it.

So what was he doing all those years? Some say rotting in a Klingon prison, but that never made it to the screen. Based on what we saw in the movie itself? You guess is as good as mine.

 

[The rapture]

The only memorable thing Janeway ever said, IMO, applies here: "Temporal paradoxes give me a headache."
Was TOS really so over-analyzed the way this movie is? Did it really rape that many childhoods? Maybe we watched two different versions of ShatKirk and NimSpock. The one I saw was a pleasure to watch in spite of all the inconsistencies, not because it was perfect.

Why do people who can't answer simple questions have to resort to the "rape your childhood" business? Of course TOS had mistakes. Why do people need a constant history lesson of Trek? No one thought it would become a cult favorite.

My 2 questions were simple. Can't you just answer them instead of giving us your "philosophy of Trek" because I am not interested in it..

 

[Admiral Kird]

Spock has all the time in the world to revert the timeline; he doesn't need to get up and do it right away within the first few days of his arrival. Maybe he has nostalgia for this time period and he'd like to live in it for awhile before returning to his previous time/universe. All he needs is a ship, the coordinates where the Narada arrived, the date & time of the Kelvin's distruction, and a bunch of explosive mines.

Just because we don't see it on-screen doesn't mean Spock isn't going to try and fix this mess. If the Prime timeline can continue after the Narada and Jellyfish alter history then this universe can also theoretically continue even if Old Spock decides to destroy the Narada when it emerges from the black hole. So even if Old Spock did alter this altered reality we'd never know unless it was shown on-screen or if Old Spock went missing from this universe.

 

[O'Dib]

It's not time travel. Let me repeat: not time travel.

You have a universe. It's called Prime now. You have another universe. A black hole happens and it cuts a hole in the side of Prime and lets some people and ships into the other universe. The other universe happens to be about a century off-sync with Prime. Lucky for us film-watching audiences, this means that we get to see some of our favorite people as young folks having awesome adventures. Unlucky for people who think about movies too much, most of the other watchers are confused by the time difference and start howling about time travel -- a topic that has been dealt with so inconsistently in the franchise that it makes the thinkers want to tear their hair out.

Does time also progress much faster in this universe? Since Spock went into the anomaly seconds after Nero and came out 25 years later... Sorry, no.

 

[Sector 7]

The only memorable thing Janeway ever said, IMO, applies here: "Temporal paradoxes give me a headache."
Was TOS really so over-analyzed the way this movie is? Did it really rape that many childhoods? Maybe we watched two different versions of ShatKirk and NimSpock. The one I saw was a pleasure to watch in spite of all the inconsistencies, not because it was perfect.

Why do people who can't answer simple questions have to resort to the "rape your childhood" business? Of course TOS had mistakes. Why do people need a constant history lesson of Trek? No one thought it would become a cult favorite.

My 2 questions were simple. Can't you just answer them instead of giving us your "philosophy of Trek" because I am not interested in it..

That is your loss, not mine. So far, whenever someone does give you an answer.. you dismiss it rather blatantly. I must conclude that you do not really want an answer, only to whine and complain. Paramount, JJ Abrams, nor I owe you a thing. [I highlighted that to which I responded.]

 

[The rapture]

Because he knows "the timeline" isn't damaged, and doesn't need to be "fixed". His original timeline is still going on, exactly as nature intended. Unfortunately, Spock isn't in his native timeline anymore, but is in an "Alternate Reality", which, for all Spock knows, is also proceeding exactly as nature intended. To disrupt the established past of this new reality would be presumptuous, arrogant, pointless, and potentially dangerous. To go back in time and alter this new timeline wouldn't necessarily "fix" it, but might well result in yet another "Alternate Reality". So rather than disrupting the established history of this Alternate reality, Old Spock is content to merely watch this new reality as it unfolds, and perhaps, at time, use his knowledge of possible future events to help guide this reality, strictly "in the now".

Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman have all said this is NOT an alternate reality. Nero went back in time and changed everything.

For Spock to allow Nero to alter time and do nothing about it is really a lack of thinking on their part because Spock should of and would of decided to FIX the timeline.


Which is why Nero must wait for Spock before taking action. He needs the red matter, so that he can simply save Romulus, without having to convince the council of anything. He plans to simply do it. So what was he doing all those years? Some say rotting in a Klingon prison, but that never made it to the screen. Based on what we saw in the movie itself? You guess is as good as mine.[/QUOTE]

Nero did not have to sit around for 20 years watching/touching up his tattoos. He didn't need the red matter that moment. He had enough time to go to Romulus and prevent the destruction if not evacuate the planet. He could of easily have prevented the whole thing. His knowledge and current technology on the ship is proof that he is NOT from that time frame. Sorry but this is a really bad plot hole.

 

[JustKate]

Because he knows "the timeline" isn't damaged, and doesn't need to be "fixed". His original timeline is still going on, exactly as nature intended. Unfortunately, Spock isn't in his native timeline anymore, but is in an "Alternate Reality", which, for all Spock knows, is also proceeding exactly as nature intended.

I'm not terribly hung up on tech-talk, but this works for me. I mean, we apparently have two Spocks now, right? So where did old Spock come from? The future? Oh, and what exactly is "the future"?

Once you end up with this sort of paradox, the definitions of "new timeline" vs. "new universe" become more than a bit...iffy. From what little I understand about such things, once the timeline changes, what you have is a new universe. Somewhere or other, there is a universe in which every possible thing that could happen has happened.

And thus ends today's oversimplified explanation of space-time paradoxes.

 

[The rapture]

That is your loss, not mine. So far, whenever someone does give you an answer.. you dismiss it rather blatantly. I must conclude that you do not really want an answer, only to whine and complain. Paramount, JJ Abrams, nor I owe you a thing. [I highlighted that to which I responded.]

Such answers like "he wanted to retire" and "it is a alternate reality" (Even though Abrams has clearly dismissed that idea). So I have not dismissed anything blatantly. This is you clearly trying to get off topic of 2 major plot holes in the movie. It is quite clear that you don't know the answer and should kindly move on. It would be nice if Abrams and Paramount )this doesn't include you because you obviously can't) would give us something without such a obvious plot holes.

It is quite clear if you know anything about Trek Spock would of wanted to fix the time line and Nero not seeing the chance to prevent the destruction are huge mistakes that should of been addressed in the editing of this movie.

 

[BorgPhil]

how do we know he didn't warn Romulus?

 

[SonicRanger]

It is quite clear if you know anything about Trek...

Spock would of [sic] wanted to fix the time line...

One instance when we have seen Spock participate in "fixing" the timeline involved the Guardian of Forever somehow "protecting" the crew from the chances and helping them to fix it. Not only did it take convincing from a god-like alien device/being, Spock was also following Kirk's orders. We have never seen Spock try to "fix" a timeline of his own accord. Maybe he would view it as pointless. In fact, he's been known to help Kirk meddle in time (i.e., TVH).

... Nero not seeing the chance to prevent the destruction are huge mistakes that should of been addressed in the editing of this movie.

It has already been pointed out to you here that Nero didn't have the red matter to save Romulus until Spock arrived. And my pet theory is that Nero and crew had dozens or hundreds of possible exit time-places for Spock, and they spent 25 years dragging themselves from one exit time-place, waiting in futile for Spock to emerge, and then hauling themselves to the next one. It makes Nero more like Ahab that way and gives time for his hatred to grow and seethe.

 

[The rapture]

It is quite clear if you know anything about Trek...

Spock would of [sic] wanted to fix the time line...

One instance when we have seen Spock participate in "fixing" the timeline involved the Guardian of Forever somehow "protecting" the crew from the chances and helping them to fix it. Not only did it take convincing from a god-like alien device/being, Spock was also following Kirk's orders. We have never seen Spock try to "fix" a timeline of his own accord. Maybe he would view it as pointless. In fact, he's been known to help Kirk meddle in time (i.e., TVH).

... Nero not seeing the chance to prevent the destruction are huge mistakes that should of been addressed in the editing of this movie.

It has already been pointed out to you here that Nero didn't have the red matter to save Romulus until Spock arrived. And my pet theory is that Nero and crew had dozens or hundreds of possible exit time-places for Spock, and they spent 25 years dragging themselves from one exit time-place, waiting in futile for Spock to emerge, and then hauling themselves to the next one. It makes Nero more like Ahab that way and gives time for his hatred to grow and seethe.

Remember Spock is logical and he knows the importance of altering the time line. When McCoy jumped into the Guardian he altered time. So badly that they did not exist thus having to make Kirk and Spock jump in as well. He also figures out what happened if Edith didn't die. He clearly knew the effect of changing a variable in the time stream. So he would suddenly allow Nero from his present to alter the past. For those out there that believe this alternate universe then Spock would not allow someone from his universe to alter one so greatly in another. Sorry but this is a horrible plot hole that "lens flares" can't cover up.

Cute theories but theories regardless. These 2 questions should of been addressed in the final editing of the film. Poor judgment on Abrams part because the Trek audience goes beyond the American Idol audience.

 

[chardman]

Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman have all said this is NOT an alternate reality. Nero went back in time and changed everything.

Bullshit. The fact that it's an alternate reality is a major story point, and is explained rather explicitly on screen. They even use the specific phrase "alternate reality".

I'm betting that Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman haven't claimed that it's all taking place in the original Trek Universe, at all, but that they've been misquoted or misunderstood by Trek-ignorant interviewers, or by drooling fanbois who heard only what they wanted to hear, and reported that to others.

 

[Sector 7]

Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman have all said this is NOT an alternate reality. Nero went back in time and changed everything.

Bullshit. The fact that it's an alternate reality is a major story point, and is explained rather explicitly on screen. They even use the specific phrase "alternate reality".

I'm betting that Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman haven't claimed that it's all taking place in the original Trek Universe, at all, but that they've been misquoted or misunderstood by Trek-ignorant interviewers, or by drooling fanbois who heard only what they wanted to hear, and reported that to others.

QFFT!

 

[The rapture]

Bullshit. The fact that it's an alternate reality is a major story point, and is explained rather explicitly on screen. They even use the specific phrase "alternate reality".

I'm betting that Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman haven't claimed that it's all taking place in the original Trek Universe, at all, but that they've been misquoted or misunderstood by Trek-ignorant interviewers, or by drooling fanbois who heard only what they wanted to hear, and reported that to others.


The last 5 major interviews that Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman have done (go see youtube for them) have all said that Nero comes from the TNG universe (and Spock too) go back in time and alter the past (ie the death of Kirks father). It is a "alternate" first meeting of the TOS cast of characters.
They have all addressed this "alter" and have all said "no". This is not some and I will quote Orci "not your illegitmate Trek. It is real. It is the new altered time line". Don't get upset at the messager. The fact that I raised 2 questions and some of you have gotten upset is your problem.

 

[BorgPhil]

Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman have all said this is NOT an alternate reality. Nero went back in time and changed everything.

Bullshit. The fact that it's an alternate reality is a major story point, and is explained rather explicitly on screen. They even use the specific phrase "alternate reality".

.

absolutely, iirc it's Uhura who says it.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

1) The original timeline still exists and this new timeline is now a new universe. It's time travel 101, it really is the basics here and easy to understand.

The timeline has clearly changed therefore Spock and Nero in the future will no longer time travel so that means Spock and Nero can't have come back in time in the first place so this is something we call a "time paradox".
In order to get around the whole time paradox problem when someone time travels the universe they came from remains in tact (does not change) and continues on, but when they exit into the past the time line splits off at that moment an creates an alternate one.

This really is the most basic stuff people should know.

2) Well if the comics are anything to go by when the Kelvin rammed the Nerada it crippled the ship and Klingons captured Nero and imprisoned him on Rura Penthe (sp?). The scene where Uhura says she heard a Klingon communication about 47 Klingons ships getting wiped out that was supposedly Nero escaping Rura Penthe.

Since this wasn't shown on the film this isn't canon therefore we can decide on another reason as to what he did for 25 years. Well basically he didn't have no red matter so he certainly couldn't have destroyed the Hobus star and as for telling the Romulan senate they apparently didn't even believe him in the 24th century (according to the comics) and this could basically be the same problem in the 23rd.
Since Nero no doubt had a limited stockpile of weapons (we only ever see missiles/torpedos) he obviously wanted to avoid confrontations for 25 years until he could find Spock and enact his revenge. No point attacking Vulcan when you aint got no weapons to fight with.


FINAL NOTE: Abrams has made it quite clear in his own words this is an alternate universe and the original still exists. To understand the reason for this please re-read answer number 1 at the top of my post.

 

[SonicRanger]

Spock would logically conclude that, even if he goes back in time (again), to stop the Narada, he could still radically alter the timeline himself. There can be no going back. It might be that Spock could cause more damage, even worse damage, to the timeline if he attempted to "fix" it. Logic does not indicate success. Logic also does not indicate that one timeline is any more "correct" than any other. Consequently, he decided to make what changes he could (e.g., get Kirk in command) without further time travel.

 

[Nimthim]

Bullshit. The fact that it's an alternate reality is a major story point, and is explained rather explicitly on screen. They even use the specific phrase "alternate reality".

I'm betting that Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman haven't claimed that it's all taking place in the original Trek Universe, at all, but that they've been misquoted or misunderstood by Trek-ignorant interviewers, or by drooling fanbois who heard only what they wanted to hear, and reported that to others.


The last 5 major interviews that Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman have done (go see youtube for them) have all said that Nero comes from the TNG universe (and Spock too) go back in time and alter the past (ie the death of Kirks father). It is a "alternate" first meeting of the TOS cast of characters.
They have all addressed this "alter" and have all said "no". This is not some and I will quote Orci "not your illegitmate Trek. It is real. It is the new altered time line". Don't get upset at the messager. The fact that I raised 2 questions and some of you have gotten upset is your problem.

Here is your answer straight from Orci's fingers as posted at Trekmovie - I highlighted a couple pertinent points in bold - Orci says quite plainly that this is an alternate timeline and it can't be fixed as you are suggesting:
TIME TRAVEL/TIMELINES
Robogeek: Why doesn’t Spock Prime try (or even want) to fix/restore the timeline, and save Vulcan?”
BobOrci: Two reasons: The RED MATTER Device is destroyed, so even if he wanted to go back in time, he can’t.
Secondly, our story is not based on the linear timeline of Einstein’s General Theory of relativity upon which most movies about time travel are based (like say, BACK TO THE FUTURE, or TERMINATOR, both of which I LOVE). The idea of a fixable timeline has been a wonderful staple of sci-fi since the 50’s, but in reading about the most current thinking in theoretical physics regarding time travel (Quantum Mechanics), we learned about the speculative theories that suggest that if time travel is possible, then the act of time travel itself creates a new universe that exists in PARALLEL to the one left by the time traveler. This is the preferred theory these days because it resolves the GRANDFATHER PARADOX, which wonders how a time traveler who kills his own younger grandfather would logically then cease to exist, but then he’d never be around to time travel and kill his grandfather in the first place. Quantum Mechanically based theories resolve this paradox by arguing that the time
traveler, in killing his grandfather, would merely split a previously identical universe into a new one in which a man who is his grandfather in another universe is killed in the new one. The time traveler does not cease to exist, although he is no longer in his own original universe (where he is now missing). Or something.
To summarize above on the time travel issue, going back in time is the equivalent of stepping into a parallel universe, according to current speculations based on Quantum Mechanics.
Starfleet and Spock, basing their decisions on this theory, would see that their is NO SUCH THING as “rectifying” the situation in a MULTIVERSE.
… and finally, my ace in the hole, a TEMPORAL PRIME DIRECTIVE.
BobOrci: For those who care to truly analyze the movie, a parallel reality is clearly expressed both by the dialogue (Uhura) but more importantly by the plot and how the characters behave within it (like the fact that Spock talking to himself doesn’t interfere with his own existence, etc…). However, I understand for some it is a distasteful or unintuitive concept, and for those people, the movie works just as well if they think of it as linear. Just like the movie is both a prequel and a sequel, depending on your point of view.
BobOrci: In our Universe, as long as I am here, you can’t just slingshot around the sun and linear time is a misconception from the middle part of the 20th century.. A good analogy for what we have done here would be to imagine we were rebooting the modern adventures of a sailor, who at the time that his stories were told, it was believed the earth was flat. Now, years later, here in the re-whatever, we know the world is round. So our story exists in a world where the world is now round, despite that being a “canon” violation.

 

[Nimthim]

I forgot to include the links to the transcripts of Orci answering questions at Trekmovie:

http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/18/orc...anscript-of-last-weeks-impromptu-qa/#comments

http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/22/orci-and-kurtzman-reveal-star-trek-details-in-trekmovie-fan-qa/

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

AFAIK, the reason Nero doesn't try to warn Romulus is that he believes that the entire Federation is conspiring against him to destroy his homeworld and that any attempt to warn his people would fail.