Two or Three Realities?

[Gojira]

But..., IN MY OPINION, there's no way in hell that after Cochrane saw the Enterprise-E through that telescope during FC, that Classic Trek still looked the way it was shown originally.

We saw, briefly, what Cochrane was seeing when he looked through the telescope. Didn't look like he saw that much, really. A vague outline of a ship, nothing more. There's no way he could have gotten a lot of technical knowledge from what he saw.

I think the technical knowledge he got was from the work that was pout into the Phoenix to make the launch successful.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ The Phoenix would have launched anyway. All the Ent-E crew did was repair the damage the Borg caused.

In any case, there's no evidence that there was ever a timeline where these things did not occur...it was supposed to happen all along. A predestination paradox.

 

[F. King Daniel]

If Enterprise is a different timeline to TOS (and the rest), how come the final episode is a TNG one?!

Didn't "Regeneration" establish that the whole thing's a self-fullfiling paradox, where the First Contact Borg survivors are the reason the Borg ever learn about humanity?

What about the NX-01 crew biographies read from the TOS ("The Tholian Web") USS Defiant's computer in "In a Mirror, Darkly"?

Just sayin'

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If Enterprise is a different timeline to TOS (and the rest), how come the final episode is a TNG one?!

Didn't "Regeneration" establish that the whole thing's a self-fullfiling paradox, where the First Contact Borg survivors are the reason the Borg ever learn about humanity?

What about the NX-01 crew biographies read from the TOS ("The Tholian Web") USS Defiant's computer in "In a Mirror, Darkly"?

Just sayin'

Yes, yes, and yes.

 

[Set Harth]

all we can say is that what happened wasn't "same universe" time travel or time travel with a branching universe (for the reasons already given).

You still haven't disproved branching universes by refusing to allow red matter black holes to work in the fashion indicated by the writers. In fact, you've argued that an analogue of the "temporal wake" plot device from First Contact allows for so-called "same universe" time travel in STXI without permitting the use of a similar device to support "branching universes".

 

[UFO]

all we can say is that what happened wasn't "same universe" time travel or time travel with a branching universe (for the reasons already given).

You still haven't disproved branching universes by refusing to allow red matter black holes to work in the fashion indicated by the writers.

Oh, I had hoped I had given fairly good reasons for that. OK, technically I believe it's a scientific axiom that you can't ever disprove something, which is why I originally put the word "proving" in quote marks, it's just the chance of that scenario looks very close to zero to me. What I think should have happened in a pure branching universe is shown in the first diagram of post … oh to space with the expense! Here it is again:

Branching Universe Example:

l========> Nero's branch universe-->
l
l............l===> Spock's branch universe->
B1=25=B2====Prime universe ==BH====>
l............l----<------Spock----------<
l
l-------------<------Nero------------<

Anything else would require explanation I suggest.

Now if Spock and Nero had come through at the same time then maybe we could say that's why only one universe (containing both of them) branched off from the prime universe, instead of one each (as shown above), but unfortunately they didn't come through together.

Even if we complicate things and allow the BH to deposit Spock in a different universe than the one he started in, how would it know to choose Nero's? The BH "knows" of no connections between Nero's universe and the Prime one since it had nothing to do with the branching other than being the first cause.

So the question becomes: Was there any conceivable connection between Spock and Nero inside the BH that would force it to not only transport Spock in time (as it did with Nero), but between universes and in particular, to the universe Nero created? I mean, other than chance. I don't see what would do that. As mentioned, they weren't even associated closely enough to arrive at the same time. It looks like they had two discrete transits.

In fact, you've argued that an analogue of the "temporal wake" plot device from First Contact allows for so-called "same universe" time travel in STXI without permitting the use of a similar device to support "branching universes".

Well, sometimes ideas just pop into my head. I can't stop the little beggars! I think it helps if such plot devices are at least semi-plausible. I.e. not complete magic or appeals to authority. Granted plausibility is subjective. Unfortunately, and doubtless it's a lack of imagination on my part, but I just haven't been able to come up with one that seems reasonable in this case. If anyone has, I'd be keen to hear it.

 

[Captrek]

Unfortunately, and doubtless it's a lack of imagination on my part, but I just haven't been able to come up with one that seems reasonable in this case.

It is corporeal. It thinks linearly.

 

[JBElliott]

Why did the time traveling in the movie cause different realities to be created rather than altering the future of a single reality? Every other time traveling story in Star Trek indicated that traveling back in time doesn't create a new reality and changes in the past will lead to changes in the future of the single reality. How come the movie is different? Is it the red matter?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I'm still holding to the idea that ST XI wasn't an alternate timeline, but rather took place in an alternate *universe* (reached by way of the black hole).

 

[F. King Daniel]

Why did the time traveling in the movie cause different realities to be created rather than altering the future of a single reality? Every other time traveling story in Star Trek indicated that traveling back in time doesn't create a new reality and changes in the past will lead to changes in the future of the single reality. How come the movie is different? Is it the red matter?

The STXI writers say every time travel back creates an alternate universe. It's a retcon that makes a mess out of all prior time-travel stories but creates some interesting possibilities (such as the universe Old Janeway left still being there, or the Borgified Earth of First Contact, or whatever). They base this on the "many worlds" theory, which many real-life scientists believe is how time-travel would really work. They say no timeline can be destroyed or altered, only new timelines created. It solves the Grandfather Paradox, and is all way beyond me.

 

[Set Harth]

So the question becomes: Was there any conceivable connection between Spock and Nero inside the BH that would force it to not only transport Spock in time (as it did with Nero), but between universes and in particular, to the universe Nero created? I mean, other than chance. I don't see what would do that.

It's possible that as Nero went through it created something like a "wake" in FC terms - a connection to the new timeline which also affected Spock's entry. The assumption of STXI is that the "time travel" depicted in the film involves a branching universe, so from the POV of the film "transport Spock in time" and "transport Spock between universes" are the same thing. The only question is whether Spock goes to the Nero-meets-the-Kelvin timeline or transports separately to a different timeline starting in the past of the Prime universe and only diverging due to Spock's own presence. For some reason it is the former rather than the latter.

I think it helps if such plot devices are at least semi-plausible.

That's exactly the problem I have with "traditional" time travel.

 

[skep155]

If Star Trek is in a many worlds universe, there's an infinite number of alternate Star Trek universes anyway. One where the Federation is never formed, one where Nero destroys Earth, one where Khan kills Kirk, one where Picard has hair, one where the Borg fly giant penis shaped ships. I think it's the best way to do it and it extends the lifetime of the franchise dramatically, if in another 15 years someone wants to come along and present their own take on Star Trek they can do it.

 

[Devon]

I think it's the best way to do it and it extends the lifetime of the franchise dramatically, if in another 15 years someone wants to come along and present their own take on Star Trek they can do it.

Absolutely!

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The STXI writers say every time travel back creates an alternate universe. It's a retcon that makes a mess out of all prior time-travel stories but creates some interesting possibilities (such as the universe Old Janeway left still being there, or the Borgified Earth of First Contact, or whatever). They base this on the "many worlds" theory, which many real-life scientists believe is how time-travel would really work. They say no timeline can be destroyed or altered, only new timelines created. It solves the Grandfather Paradox, and is all way beyond me.

You mean they said all this in interviews? Because they sure didn't say all that through the movie!

The many-worlds theory (at least the one I've heard of) doesn't hold that time travel creates anything, but that infinite parallel realities exist because that is the nature of the cosmos. So time travel does nothing, and in fact, time travel doesn't really exist.

What appears to be time travel is simply travel between realities. Some realities are similar enough to your original reality that you might not realize you went anywhere. (In fact, there's no guarantee that any of us are still living in the same reality we were born into - what if the transfer is instantaneous or happens while we sleep - chew on that for a while. ) You might pop into a different reality at what appears to be a different point in the timeline from where you left off, but that might simply be due to that reality's timeline being a bit behind or ahead of yours. The order and schedule in which things happen is one of the variables that varies between realities.

If the cosmos actually operates on many-realities theory, then everytime Our Heroes thought a) the timeline was broken and b) they fixed the timeline, what really was happening was a) they had been transported to a very similar, but not identical reality and b) they returned to their own reality.

Their own reality was never in peril, and they didn't actually accomplish anything in either reality but to delude themselves. The entire Federation might share in this collective delusion by now, because there's no 100% sure way to tell if time travel is actually occurring, or if it has all been travel between realities and nothing else.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The way things like time travel and multiple universes may or may not work in real life need have no bearing on how they function in a work of fiction. Star Trek is fantasy, and has been since day one. It's idea of multiverse and branching timelines can be however the writers want it to be at the time.

 

[UFO]

The assumption of STXI is that the "time travel" depicted in the film involves a branching universe, so from the POV of the film "transport Spock in time" and "transport Spock between universes" are the same thing.

I don't think that assumption is warranted. My understanding is that "branching" is an ongoing process that has nothing in particular to do with time travel. The results of time travel just provide one more possible cause of that branching. From the point of view of the black hole for example, (if it were able to!) it neither "knows" nor "cares" whether the target universe will divide or not.

Thus I can't see why time travel shouldn't operate in a very traditional fashion. Its only when something gets to the other end of the wormhole and "upsets" the reality it arrives in, that a new universe is produced.

It's possible that as Nero went through it created something like a "wake" in FC terms - a connection to the new timeline which also affected Spock's entry.

In FC the "wake" is just a by-product of the temporal field the Borg ship generates and the Enterprise is "protected" by being within it. Other than that, there is no connection between the two vessels. Moreover the Enterprise goes to the same time and place as the Borg. By contrast in STXI, the plot requirements of having Spock appear 25 years later makes the behaviour of the black hole seem more random and Spock and Nero more unconnected. In any event, the black hole is already performing the function of the "wake" or field: To deliver Nero and later Spock to the past of the Prime Universe. I just feel you are asking too much to expect it to somehow override that function and change Spock's destination in response to events that occur once Nero has passed through.

The creation of a new universe seems like it would be more likely to server any connection between Spock and Nero that may exist. I would not expect the Enterprise to appear in the same universe as the Borg ship, for example, if that situation had been based on a branching assumption. I would have seen it as a technical error, assuming I noticed it! Still, if you are happy to see the STXI version in the terms you discribe that's OK with me.

However I feel the most likely explanation is that the writers weren't aware of that problem and just got it wrong. If you are looking for an in movie fix, the pre-existing universe theory is a much better fit in my opinion. By the sound of it we have heard the last of red matter or at least time travel for a bit anyway. Personally I love time travel's ability to set a scene, but relying on it as a critical device in the plot is problematic. Or has been without branching realities.

I think it helps if such plot devices are at least semi-plausible.

That's exactly the problem I have with "traditional" time travel.

I agree with you. I have no problem with the branching "solution" as a plot device generally (though I am not sure of its real world implications). I just think it was the wrong choice in light of what we see on screen. By the way, if you want to travel in time and return home in a branching multiverse, you would have to have the technology to do the actual time travel and to hop between realities. Even so, going back would split your original universe in two as well. Not a problem really as that is happening all the time anyway.

I think it's the best way to do it and it extends the lifetime of the franchise dramatically, if in another 15 years someone wants to come along and present their own take on Star Trek they can do it.

Absolutely!

If we assume it was necessary, then it was a better solution than a complete reboot in my opinion as there is still some feeling of continuity.

The many-worlds theory (at least the one I've heard of) doesn't hold that time travel creates anything, but that infinite parallel realities exist because that is the nature of the cosmos. So time travel does nothing, and in fact, time travel doesn't really exist.

Actually constant branching is another of the many-worlds theories. Time travel may or may not exist, but as mentioned above I think it is a separate issue. By the way, in a non-branching, no time travel multiverse, I believe that in order to show the events in STXI you would have to "assemble" samples from a number of different realities at different stages of development. I.e. Nero couldn't be the same one Spock Prime follows through the black hole.

The way things like time travel and multiple universes may or may not work in real life need have no bearing on how they function in a work of fiction.

That's true, but I think good science fiction is an extension of what we know about reality rather than a contradiction of it, unless there is a very good explanation. I'm not sure "red matter" qualifies as an explanation? Then there is that other exotic material that (according to countdown I think) somehow converts a supernova into a galaxy destroyer.

Star Trek is fantasy, and has been since day one. It's idea of multiverse and branching timelines can be however the writers want it to be at the time.

You could be right, but I prefer to think it is sometimes what passes for good SF in the video media!


*****
Oops, I believe I stuffed the following up.

OK, technically I believe it's a scientific axiom that you can't ever disprove something ...

I think that axiom is that you can't prove something, you can only keep trying and failing to disprove it!

 

[Set Harth]

In FC the "wake" is just a by-product of the temporal field the Borg ship generates and the Enterprise is "protected" by being within it. Other than that, there is no connection between the two vessels. Moreover the Enterprise goes to the same time and place as the Borg. By contrast in STXI, the plot requirements of having Spock appear 25 years later makes the behaviour of the black hole seem more random and Spock and Nero more unconnected. In any event, the black hole is already performing the function of the "wake" or field: To deliver Nero and later Spock to the past of the Prime Universe. I just feel you are asking too much to expect it to somehow override that function and change Spock's destination in response to events that occur once Nero has passed through.

Spock can be caught in Nero's wake while still experiencing the
( ultimately magnified ) effect of the slight time difference. Once again, "other than that, there is no connection between the two vessels". One of these plot devices is no more unlikely than the other.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

If you are looking for an in movie fix, the pre-existing universe theory is a much better fit in my opinion.

I agree. And I should have not implied that branching isn't possible w/n the many-worlds theory, only that that doesn't seem to be what was intended in Trek XI.

There is an infinite number of realities. Regardless of how they came into being, they exist now. We've seen three of them: Prime U, Mirror U, Abrams U.

It's nice and simple, and allows Abrams & co free rein to create stories while not messing with a timeline we have emotional and DVD investment in, which seems to be their intent. It should be their intent, since it's the only sensible way for them to proceed. The alternatives all lead to bad places...

 

[UFO]

In FC the "wake" is just a by-product of the temporal field the Borg ship generates and the Enterprise is "protected" by being within it. Other than that, there is no connection between the two vessels. ... the black hole is already performing the function of the "wake" or field: To deliver Nero and later Spock to the past of the Prime Universe. I just feel you are asking too much to expect it to somehow override that function and change Spock's destination in response to events that occur once Nero has passed through.

Spock can be caught in Nero's wake while still experiencing the
( ultimately magnified ) effect of the slight time difference. Once again, "other than that, there is no connection between the two vessels". One of these plot devices is no more unlikely than the other.

Well I guess we have different opinions of how likely it is for Nero's assumed and unspecified "wake" (he didn't produce any fields himself) to bridge both the time difference and the severing effect of reality splitting him off into a new universe. I.e. the wake would have to "aim" the wormhole's exit at the new universe, which I find less likely than what happened in FC (effectively an exiting temporal field was imagined to cover the Enterprise). You may not of course.

What I think we can agree on is that in FC the writers anticipated a potential issue and provided a "solution", whatever we may think of it. In STXI they didn't, suggesting they didn't realise there might be a problem.

If you are looking for an in movie fix, the pre-existing universe theory is a much better fit in my opinion.

I agree. And I should have not implied that branching isn't possible w/n the many-worlds theory, only that that doesn't seem to be what was intended in Trek XI.

That's interesting since most people now seem to believe in the branching model. Of course that might be due to reading reviews, the writers' comments or posts on here etc.

It would be interesting to know how many fans, who had heard nothing about that part before hand, thought the events took place in the past of the Prime Universe (i.e. same universe time travel) when they left the theatre? Be honest now! I believe I did, right to the end.

*** Edit ***
I guess that's similar to this point:
From: Alternate universe in the 24th Century by JarodRussell

They should have asked their test audiences whether they thought the original timeline was overwritten or if they got that alternate reality babble. Would have been interesting to see.

But I'd still like to know.