Two or Three Realities?
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Well, its been postulated that the physical "laws" (if any) operating inside black holes probably bear no relation to those in our "normal" universe. So sensible behaviour may not be something we can rely on. That's why I suggested it might have sent Nero and Spock to effectively random universe destinations. On the other hand, the possibility that STXI black holes operate like reasonably stable inter-universe wormholes is one I allowed for in the paragraph that followed the one you quoted from.
However the time delay you mention could open the door to possible variations in other parameters (even target universe alterations, despite the same starting point, now seem possible). Of course thinking about it, these possible changes can't (all?) be random or Nero wouldn't have been able to lie in wait for Spock. Actually I'm not sure how he did that anyway because as KingDaniel pointed out, Nero is unlikely to be into cutting edge temporal physics, but I digress.
Even Spock's explanation of an "Alternate Reality" is vague and ambiguous. That's why we're debating this thing to death.To some people the term is synonymous with the term parallel universe but not to everyone.
If Uhura had replied "parallel universe" instead this debate would be over.
Not so fast! There's still the debate over which multiverse theory to use!
Speaking of that ...
Assuming the second scenario, I was suggesting that it would be effectively impossible for Spock to end up in the same new universe as Nero because each of their respective arrivals would create a universe that branched off from the original prime universe. No one else seems to have pointed that out so I thought I would give it a try. I'm not sure I have succeeded though.
I wouldn't hold your breath on anyone answering this either. Back around when the movie came out, I started a thread on that very issue, and there wasn't really an answer.
Well its good to have confirmation that my reasoning is sound anyway! However perhaps we have at least succeeded in "proving" that STXI isn't using the branching universe theory after all. If it was, what we saw on screen couldn't (in all likelihood) have happened. That leaves us with traditional ST time travel (well, within the same universe anyway) or pre-existing parallel universes (with or without "real" time travel).
Its really quite sad that in less "enlightened" threads, they'll still assume Branching Theory's a viable option.
By the way, I agree with Space Therapist, "parallel universe" would have done it for me. I didn't click about that "alternate reality" line. I got to the end of the movie and nobody "fixed it"!
Arrrh … it never changed back! Why didn't it change back? Whhhhhy?
No its OK, I'll be all right in a minute, sob …
I wouldn't exactly call the following speculation "proof": So sensible behaviour may not be something we can rely on. That's why I suggested it might have sent Nero and Spock to effectively random universe destinations.
In so-called "traditional ST time travel", the timeline would have been altered by Nero's entry such that Spock's entry as in the film wouldn't even have happened.
It was the explicit intent of the writers, and it is consistent with events in the film, so it is in fact the system used by the film.
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No, neither would I. That comment addressed a different issue. Actually I put my case for the "impossibility" of Branching Universe Theory (or universe creation on the fly) in each of my first three posts. The last and most succinct was:
Under that model, as far as I can see, the only way for what we saw in the movie to occur in a branching universe multiverse would be for the black hole to deposit Spock in the same new reality that Nero's arrival created, completely at random. In other words, one chance in an effective infinity! Those odds make the other coincidences in the movie look pretty much inevitable!
Actually, to be fair Nero's universe will have branched an incredible number of times in 25 years, but so will all the others so the relative odds will be similar. OK yes, I admit I haven't allowed for the possibility of some other universes having their own "Nero character" incursions that Spock Prime could end up in and mistake for "his" Nero ... but that's not the impression we get form the film (and my head is starting to spin!).
Good point. I recall that mentioned somewhere now (perhaps by you) and it does seem reasonable. Thanks for reminding me. OK, so pending someone pointing out where I have gone abysmally wrong, we have got rid of the Branching Universe Theory and Traditional ST Time Travel. Now we are getting somewhere.
That leaves the Pre-existing Universes Theory. OK, with or without time travel?
Well, they certainly "appear" to go back in time (albeit to another universe)! But that could be to a less advanced concurrent universe (like the Defiant in In a Mirror Darkly, if I'm not mistaken). Nor does it explain Spock's temporal delay. For the concurrent model to work, wouldn't the black hole have to be holding onto Spock for 25 years? This seems to contradict the idea that the black hole is just acting as an inter-universe portal.
Also, from what happens in the movie Nero seems to believe he has travelled in time and somehow he knows enough about how that works to figure out how long it will be before Spock will arrive. Further, we know from past Trek that "real" time travel is possible.
Therefore I feel the most likely Pre-existing Universe Model also involves a time travel component.
Its really quite sad that in less "enlightened" threads, they'll still assume Branching Theory's a viable option.
It was the explicit intent of the writers, and it is consistent with events in the film, so it is in fact the system used by the film.
I take it your comment on the writer's intent is based on post film interviews? I would really appreciate it if you could post a link to one that makes it clear they were using the Branching Universe Theory or a relevant quote you may have.
Also, what makes you feel it is consistent with what is seen in the movie? As previously explained, it just doesn't seem possible for Spock to arrive in Nero's universe to me. That's not the one he would be sent back in time to. The Prime universe would be.
^ Like I said, Spock and Nero entered the *same* black hole. So why shouldn't it spit them both out in the same universe?
I'm with MLB: Same black hole (which functioned more like an unstable wormhole), same universe - the one Nero's changes created.
I don't think "Branching Universe theory" hasn't been discounted at all. The infinite universes supposedly exist because of quantum duplication. Thus there are infinfite "Spock Prime"s being created at every single "decision point". There are universes where he was successful in stopping the supernova before it destroyed Romulus, there are universes where he was never found by Kirk on Delta Vega. There are probably ones where he fell into the black hole seconds earlier or later, meaning he emerged years or decades earlier or later. Each of these created a new timeline with a different chain of events. There are billions of Spock Primes appearing in universes where Nero chose different paths of action between 2233 and 2358.
Also the concept of time moving at different rates on each side of the temporal anomoly was first used in Voyager's "Future's End".
I don't think "Branching Universe theory" hasn't been discounted at all. The infinite universes supposedly exist because of quantum duplication. Thus there are infinfite "Spock Prime"s being created at every single "decision point". There are universes where he was successful in stopping the supernova before it destroyed Romulus, there are universes where he was never found by Kirk on Delta Vega. There are probably ones where he fell into the black hole seconds earlier or later, meaning he emerged years or decades earlier or later. Each of these created a new timeline with a different chain of events. There are billions of Spock Primes appearing in universes where Nero chose different paths of action between 2233 and 2358.
Also the concept of time moving at different rates on each side of the temporal anomoly was first used in Voyager's "Future's End".
IMHO, the infinite universes always existed. It's just that before a given decision, they were identical (with respect to that decision). For example, let's say you have twenty T-shirts in your drawer. You don't *create* 20 different universes, one for each shirt; they're all identical up to the point where you make the decision which to wear, then afterward, they're different. But they always existed.
Takes a lot of energy to create a universe, after all. You don't do that just by making a decision.
I only meant to suggest that black holes are thought to be inherently unpredictable. However from what we observe in STXI, what you suggest appears to be exactly what happened.
Perhaps a diagram will help:
l========> Nero's branch universe-->
l
l............l===> Spock's branch universe->
B1=25=B2====Prime universe ==BH====>
l............l----<------Spock----------<
l
l-------------<------Nero------------<
Ok, not a good diagram.
(Please ignore the full stops, they're just spacers).Nero and Spock both go back in time and arrive at different points in the prime universe (same black hole, same target universe right?). Actually, in the branching model, the black hole is just a time machine, so its not going send anyone to a different universe anyway (I.e. it wont send Spock P to Nero's branch universe which split off 25 years before Spock arrived in the prime universe). It wouldn't help to attribute universe hopping abilities to the black hole because we would have the same problem as above no matter what universe they are sent to.
On the other hand this is what appears to have happened in the movie:
===========Prime universe ==BH=======>
l-------------<------Nero-------------<
l............l----<------Spock-----------<
l............l
NA=25=SA===Similar Pre-existing universe====>
Again, same black hole, same target universe.
Oh, as a real life option, it may still be in the running. But as explained above, it doesn't fit with what we see on screen in STXI. If it seems like the writers intended to use it, perhaps that's because they didn't realise it wouldn't work?
Possibly, but Spock Prime wouldn't have arrived in any of them unless the black hole is both a time machine and inter-universe conduit. Even if that is the case, and assuming the black hole chooses target universes (to send Spock to) at random (what other method could it use?), the chances of SP being sent to any of those universes is still very close to zero, given the total number that must exist.
Therefore if there is a much more likely way for them to end up in the same universe (that wormhole between universes you mentioned perhaps), I think we have to accept it.
Thanks.
Takes a lot of energy to create a universe, after all. You don't do that just by making a decision.
That bothers me too, but apparently there are scientists who don't seem to think its a problem for some reason, so who knows? Its a weird multiverse!
For what it's worth, here's the official, Paramount-endorsed graphic showing the branching timeline (created for Star Trek Online):
img.trekmovie.com/images/st09/stotimeline.jpg
img.trekmovie.com/images/st09/stotimeline.jpg
The way I get around all the apparent changes, is to figure that Nero jumped back to the Alternate Timeline/Reality which was created after the events of First Contact.
IMO, Classic Trek changed anyway at that point as seen by the events played out during Star Trek-Enterprise. (Which I love, BTW)
Again IMO, Zefram Cochrane seeing the Enterprise-E through the telescope was the diverting point that lead to all the changes that created the look of the NX-01 and that would eventually lead to the eventual look of the Kelvin seen in Trek XI.
The Classic Trek that We saw during the late 60's was not the Reality that Nero and Spock Prime ended up in.
And I have absolutely no problem with that.
IMO, Classic Trek changed anyway at that point as seen by the events played out during Star Trek-Enterprise. (Which I love, BTW)
Again IMO, Zefram Cochrane seeing the Enterprise-E through the telescope was the diverting point that lead to all the changes that created the look of the NX-01 and that would eventually lead to the eventual look of the Kelvin seen in Trek XI.
The Classic Trek that We saw during the late 60's was not the Reality that Nero and Spock Prime ended up in.
And I have absolutely no problem with that.
Argh! They're using "alternative universe" and "alternative timeline" interchangeably!
Nice way to add fuel to the fire.Then howcome all that doesn't appear on the "official diagram"?
I prefer the notion that all the timeline-fu that Star Trek has ever done has resulted in a 100% reset to the status quo - until Trek XI, because Trek XI for the first time jumps realities, not timelines. It's a horse of a different color.
Because the diagram is wrong.
Argh! They're using "alternative universe" and "alternative timeline" interchangeably!
Then howcome all that doesn't appear on the "official diagram"?
At least in my opinion.
BTW... I love Star Trek-On-Line also.
Though I don't get to play as often as I'd like too.
Thanks, that's great. I think its safe to say time travel combined with a branching multiverse is what the writers had in mind. Can't see them letting that stand if it wasn't.
I take it you agree they got it wrong then?
The "temporal wake" may have been an obvious and dubious plot device but at least it didn't seem to contradict itself as changing the behaviour of the black hole in mid stream does. I.e. The black hole is a straight time machine for Nero, but becomes an inter-universe conduit and time machine for Spock. If we are generous and give them that one, that still doesn't explain how the black hole "knew" which universe the writers wanted to send Spock to. Highly unlikely coincidence (next best thing to impossible in this case) wont cut it this time, in my view.
OK that's still not a problem in the sense that few people, if any, probably care a great deal. And if you do, there is an alternate, er, alternate universe theory that does "work", and some here prefer it anyway, so it's not like it's the end of the world. … Oops, … I guess that's a bit insensitive, sorry.
But it is a problem in the sense that the writers got it wrong by their own rules (The few that are explained or exist, which is a big part of the problem). On the other hand I'm not trying to hit them over the head with it. It's clearly a tricky one to spot and shouldn't degrade your enjoyment of the movie (assuming you enjoyed it). Further, as someone once said: Let those who are without behavioural anomalies fire the first phaser.
Correction:
Actually I was incorrect then I wrote above:
Changing the black hole's behaviour isn't necessarily a contradiction. We just don't know all the abilities of red matter black holes, as Set Harth implied. But it is indicative of the extraordinarily convoluted hoops the writers had to jump through to get everyone in the "right" seats. My second point regarding the likelihood of Spock being sent to Nero's universe still stands though as far as I can see.
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Because the diagram is wrong.
Argh! They're using "alternative universe" and "alternative timeline" interchangeably!
Then howcome all that doesn't appear on the "official diagram"?
At least in my opinion.
BTW... I love Star Trek-On-Line also.
Though I don't get to play as often as I'd like too.
Honestly, I've forgotten what the logic was about how ENT proved that FC caused the timeline to branch off. It did seem to make sense at the time...more than the Space Nazis did, anyway.
What are their rules? All I got was a vague implication that the Abramsverse is a new reality, but the timeline wants to "repair itself," which I guess is the writers' promise that they won't do anything too zany like blow up Earth or have Kirk and Spock be gay after all, like we've known all along.
Neither ST:FC nor ENT established an alternate timeline. ST XI did; they did not.
Going by what I believe is called "canon" (in-movie evidence), all we can say is that what happened wasn't "same universe" time travel or time travel with a branching universe (for the reasons already given). So the alternate universe they end up in had to be pre-existing. You are right, that doesn't allow me to conclude the writers made a mistake without including other sources which suggest they intended a branching universe. My apologies if I am being naughty!
Surely Kirk and Spock would have to be bi-sexual, or were they in denial?
... , like we've known all along.
I must lead a sheltered life, but come to think of it, a romantic triangle would certainly explain the Bones/Spock antagonism! Or is that going too far?
Re "repairing itself, how does the timeline "know" what it is supposed to be doing (sentient universes?)? If universes are normally equipped with self righting mechanisms, why was it necessary to go back and fix things in the olden days?
You obviously have a generous nature. Here I just thought the writers were trying to head of inevitable claims of too many unreasonable coincidences. Either that or perhaps they are scientologists or pantheists or something?
Call it what you like...
But..., IN MY OPINION, there's no way in hell that after Cochrane saw the Enterprise-E through that telescope during FC, that Classic Trek still looked the way it was shown originally.
What would be cool is if someone at some point, redoes the SP-FX (again) so that the TOS Enterprise looks more like the Kelvin to indicate that there was a change.
Also, somebody should redo the Official(?) Timeline to show the divergence back (ahead?) in 2063.
We saw, briefly, what Cochrane was seeing when he looked through the telescope. Didn't look like he saw that much, really. A vague outline of a ship, nothing more. There's no way he could have gotten a lot of technical knowledge from what he saw.
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